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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 12:18:42 PM   
Dauric


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

you are taking the liberal tactic of avoiding the question, How do you justify those quotes into what you are saying? How are those quotes anything if not an attempt at censorship...


I hope you realize that you sound like a shill attributing every debate tactic that you find lacking to being "liberal".. people who do that sound like Hitler to me, just replace "Jew" with any other group of people in his speeches and you will see what I mean... people use that tactic... some of them are conservative, some are liberal, some are apolitical


Well said!

$0.02,

Dauric.

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 12:32:22 PM   
selfbnd411


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quote:


Who is this senior adviser to Pelosi?...Doesn't this person like the other two have a name?


Excellent post Dom.  An unsigned article that does not cite its sources and is published in an extremist hack magazine like is not worth rebutting.

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 12:34:38 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I don't care where it's published. If the sources cannot be independently verified, it's not journalism, it's FICTION.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 12:40:04 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		So Fargle Only Print media has freedom of speach???

Wait they use Publicly owned roadways so the Government can tell The NY Times they have to present both sides of th issue. Since the method they use to get the information from press to your home is a publicly owned road, the Fairness Doctrine has to apply to them as well. Only being Fair.



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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 1:03:00 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		LICENSED entities do not have Rights. They have whatever PRIVILEGES the Licensor CHOOSES to extend.

If they don't like the REGULATIONS, they don't have to apply for a License.

If you don't like the REGULATIONS on the highway, you don't have to apply for a License.

Get it?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 1:33:20 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		My point is the reason they give for needing to regulate content is bullshit.
The same reason they give for being able to regulate airwaves would apply to newspapers, in fact if anything the case for regulating papers is stronger, since the infrastructure built for distribution of papers was paid for by public funds while te infrastructure for broadcast is etheral and the government paid nothing for it.

Regulation of content in either case is wrong headed.

The only regulation function that I beleive the government should be involved in in any broadcast media is assignment of frequency and regulation of wattage/ power.

Leaving out the condecension tag lines.


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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 1:40:49 PM   
Dauric


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Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		I'l agree with Archer that the government influence in media should be kept at a minimum. However I will say that there is a line between "Journalism" and "Editorialization" and it behooves us all to know that line. Given how many editorialists, on both sides, present themselves as journalists; we need to be able to distinguish that line more than ever.

It's not a matter of legislation, it's a matter of education.

$0.02,

Dauric.

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 1:45:43 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"My point is the reason they give for needing to regulate content is bullshit. "

Do you miscaracturize the issue intentionally?

Simply put. A Broadcast Licensee Must Not Broadcast EDITORIAL CONTENT without providing for opposing viewpoints. Ensuring that the LICENSE WE GIVE is not abused.

"REGULATING CONTENT" makes it sound like Rush Limbaugh won't be able to BUY AIRTIME, which is simply incorrect. Like Ron Popeil, Rush can buy whatever airtime he chooses.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 1:52:25 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

LICENSED entities do not have Rights. They have whatever PRIVILEGES the Licensor CHOOSES to extend.

If they don't like the REGULATIONS, they don't have to apply for a License.

If you don't like the REGULATIONS on the highway, you don't have to apply for a License.

Get it?


I think so, but want to be sure.

You endorse government review and approval of all information going out via any "regulated" electronic media to insure "equal access" to all political viewpoints.

How are you determining "equal"? Will it be equal channel access or time access over the same channel? If it's equal time over the same channel what would prevent the ignorant masses from switching to their preference during specific times where the programming matches their viewing desire? For instance, if the Fox talking heads had to go on CNN for equal access, wouldn't the Fox viewers switch to their channel with the result being 100% only viewing Fox? It would seem equal access must have some form of enforcement teeth. Somebody in the government will have to monitor what each person watches to insure they aren't getting brainwashed by either side. Will they be providing the interactive HDTV's to hang from our walls?

What about non-news shows. Many TV dramas have a political slant. If an episode of Law & Order has a story line negative to female castration, should those who endorse female castration as part of their culture have equal time for their viewpoint?

What about the people? In the world of Radio, if a person listens to Russ Limbaugh for an hour going to work, would they be required to listen to a Al Franken? Which government bureaucracy will monitor each person's viewing/listening? Would we be allowed to turn off the radio/TV, or to insure equal access, would there no longer be an "off" button?

Want also to "get" this. Any and all licenses issued by the government are "privileges"? Choosing a channel by personal preference and having programming based upon its market appeal is not correct? Programming should not consider the market and only be equal access of all political viewpoints at no cost or concern about viewership?

Hoping you can be clear.

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 1:54:11 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I doubt it. American media by any standard is skewed to the right. What most Americans call liberal is conservative in most other western countries. It can't be good for America to have an electorate that doesn't have access to both sides of an argument, it makes sense for democracy for the population to have access to a range of views.
I thought government mandated programming was considered propaganda?

There is access to a wide range of views. This latest attempt by the left is a direct result of Air America dieing a natural death due to lack of interest. When the market doesn't bear the cost and generate profits any company or idea deserves its death. But its not "fair" that people listen to what they chose to listen? What's next; monitoring our viewing habits to make sure we hear equal amount of left and right wing propaganda? People would support this concept as a goal?

Good thing I'm old and won't have to worry about growing up where any watching of Bugs Bunny had to be offset by equal time with Mr. Rodgers!

I don't remember, was censorship and the elimination of "right wing' radio one of the platforms of this new Congress?


So only corporations and people with enough money to control the media have views that should be heard?

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 1:59:54 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:


You endorse government review and approval of all information going out via any "regulated" electronic media to insure "equal access" to all political viewpoints.


Incorrect. And if that's the understanding of the operation of the Fairness Doctrine, then you must not have watched TV prior to the 1980s...

Either that, or you're getting your information from a faulty source.

There is a fundamental difference b/t EDITORIAL CONTENT and PROGRAMMING.

You are free to buy whatever time you care to, and present whatever PROGRAMMING you desire.

Your EDITORIAL CONTENT simply must allow for opposing viewpoints.

Traditionally this requirement has been met with a SIMPLE TAGLINE, such as "This is our opinion, if you are a responsible party who desires an opportunity to respond, write us, we'd like to know what you think, too."



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 2:12:25 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Simpsons Episode 4F24; Lisa The Simpson

% Lisa is at Channel 6, speaking with the station manager.

Manager: I'm sorry, little girl, we don't just put people on TV! Unless of course they're replying to an editorial.
Lisa: Uh, I am! [Thinking] I'm strongly opposed to.. proposition, uh, 305.
Manager: You're against discount bus fares for war widows?
Lisa: Uh.. [fake enthusiam] you bet I am..
Manager: ["Fair enough" tone] Okay.. Make-up!
-- "Lisa the Simpson"

% At home, Marge is worried about Lisa's whereabouts. The news is on TV.

Authorities believe the wave of towel snapping will get worse before it
gets better. [Picture of a bare behind being snapped with a towel.]
-- Kent Brockman for Channel 6 News, "Lisa the Simpson"

And now with an editorial reply, here's a small girl!
-- Kent Brockman, "Lisa the Simpson"

Lisa: Hello, my name is Lisa Simpson.
Marge: *Gasp*
Lisa: I'm supposed to talk to you about proposition 305.
Homer: [Bitter] Mooching war widows...
-- "Lisa the Simpson"


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 2:17:49 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

So only corporations and people with enough money to control the media have views that should be heard?
That was what you got from that? What view is being repressed?

No, people should see and hear whatever they want. I'm please that my radio/TV have off buttons and no monitoring of my viewing habits. Air America failed, Russ, and his ilk have a market that succeeds. 

Corporations could not care less about which side of the political fence their viewers/listeners reside. They care about only the bottom line. If anyone listened to Air America it would still be on the air nationally. If more people preferred CNN to FOX more people would be watching it. People ultimately control the media in the current environment based upon sponcers paying to have their advertisement viewed by the largest number of people possible. Subject PBS to the same criteria and there would be a void to be filled by any new program you wish. Like Air America, if the programming isn't desired it won't be watched. Would you make a law mandating people have to?

What national broadcasting corporation is "right wing"? Fox? The home of "Married With Children", the "Simpsons", and the never to be forgotten "Who's My Daddy?" programming? Would the late great Mr. Falwell sanction those programs? Don't care for their news channel? Well, don't watch it. Because the Fox news rating is higher than CNN it's a "bad" thing?  

More important to me is the question as to why this is a priority for this Congress? Why does that ability to chose and decide a preference by viewership/listener-ship pose a problem of National concern? Is a person's viewing habits ahead of all the other issues and problems they said they would address handled to the satisfaction of the voters who put them in power? Or are the party/people in power so insecure and unconfident in the popularity of their positions that they want to limit what everyone can hear, or as the case may be, chose NOT to hear.

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 2:19:25 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		There is never anything wrong with hearing both sides of the debate....I understand why conservative "talk" has succeeded where liberal programming has failed....I just don't think that our NASCAR nation is willing or even capable of wrestling with the concept that there is more than one side to any story...It is the nature of the beast.

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 2:38:16 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		It took Rush and Hanity and the rest of them many years to develop radio programs that make money. Yet Air America tried to buy in at the top level without developing an actual show. Had anyone spent the time to actually build a show from the ground up with a liberal slant for radio it could be successfull.

Instill the Fairness Doctrine on radio again and watch what happens. It's not going to promote more discussion it's going to have station managers cut out talk radio about anything but Sports programing, Garden Talk, Home Repair and the radio version of Garage Sales.

The only shows that might make it past the Fairness Doctrine and still make any money (thus staying on the air) will be shows that hire One host who plays the straightman for the other and is hammered getting only a couple points in every so often.
[See Hanity and Colmbes (sp)].

I still remember the crap that used to be aired to comply with the Fairness Doctrine, they didn't get much other than fringe wackos that wanted free airtime for their views from what I recall. (Isn't that what the callers in Talk Radio do? provide opposing views to some extent)






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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 2:50:56 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I just don't think that our NASCAR nation is willing or even capable of wrestling with the concept that there is more than one side to any story...
Your position is that our Nation, and NASCAR viewers in particular, don't have the necessary brain power to change the channel or listen to an alternative viewpoint?

It requires that rationalization to conclude that its necessary to regulate media content?

How about an opposing view that NASCAR watchers and the majority of the public just don't like or agree with the side they don't listen?

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 3:01:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


You endorse government review and approval of all information going out via any "regulated" electronic media to insure "equal access" to all political viewpoints.

Incorrect.
Then tell me what it is. Would a simple, editorial disclaimer at the beginning and end of each show satisfy you?

Any why no response to any of the other points? They are logical positions derived from your previous "privilege", "licensed" stance.

quote:

And if that's the understanding of the operation of the Fairness Doctrine, then you must not have watched TV prior to the 1980s...

Either that, or you're getting your information from a faulty source.
I have no problem with the status quo governed my the market. It's you who want to return to better days of TV prior to the 1980's.

To that end...

Please lay out how every program and any political position given as an opinion or as part of a story line will be monitored. How should the government insure that no licensed source is abusing their broadcasting privilege? Who will determine that each citizen has equal access and opportunity to listen to every political position?

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 3:08:31 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I just don't think that our NASCAR nation is willing or even capable of wrestling with the concept that there is more than one side to any story...
Your position is that our Nation, and NASCAR viewers in particular, don't have the necessary brain power to change the channel or listen to an alternative viewpoint?

It requires that rationalization to conclude that its necessary to regulate media content?

How about an opposing view that NASCAR watchers and the majority of the public just don't like or agree with the side they don't listen?


I don't think there is any sense in administering the "Fairness Doctrine"  ....And yes, that is exactly what I am saying.....Don't you wonder why Fox is so successful where liberal attempts fail? I would look at the inherent differences of how the minds of the two sides con/lib work.....I truly believe that the majority of Fox viewers watch it because they get a sense of peace in being constantly reaffirmed about the correctness of the values and the positions they hold dear.

You do realize that in a poll viewers of Fox were shown to be the least knowledgeable of current events....It is played out again and again on these threads that you can bring out "facts" and even though they are reliable they will be dismissed because they conflict with  preconceived notions of the said event.

There is no reason to show two sides of any argument because  many Americans don't posses the ability to actually process two sides of a discussion and reach their own conclusion without it being spoon fed to them.

I believe this to be true.....So again I think most Americans barely have the capability of following their favorite car moving around a track let alone trying to participate in a discussion that would force them to reexamine their preconceived beliefs and actually force them to hold them up to the light of day.

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 3:25:24 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

You do realize that in a poll viewers of Fox were shown to be the least knowledgeable of current events....
And before Fox, these people were all well rounded, knowledgeable individuals? Now they just have a common home source of news? Any TV news source is entertainment first designed to generate viewers which in turn generate income from sponsors. Any 'news' or even news slant is ancillary to that goal.

At least you've backed off your initial proclamation that Corporations and rich individuals were the cause of the problem. You've now isolated it to one corporation -FOX, and one wealthy individual Rupert Murdoch. The difference between him and say CNN and the days of Ted Turner at his most powerful is what exactly?

quote:

It is played out again and again on these threads that you can bring out "facts" and even though they are reliable they will be dismissed because they conflict with  preconceived notions of the said event.
The fairness doctrine is the cure for hard-headiness, or stubbornness?

quote:

I don't think there is any sense in administering the "Fairness Doctrine" 
We have total agreement. The pendulum will swing back again. Its at its most boring when it stops completely in the middle.

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RE: And the liberals complain about censorship? - 5/15/2007 3:43:22 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

You do realize that in a poll viewers of Fox were shown to be the least knowledgeable of current events....
And before Fox, these people were all well rounded, knowledgeable individuals? Now they just have a common home source of news? Any TV news source is entertainment first designed to generate viewers which in turn generate income from sponsors. Any 'news' or even news slant is ancillary to that goal.

At least you've backed off your initial proclamation that Corporations and rich individuals were the cause of the problem. You've now isolated it to one corporation -FOX, and one wealthy individual Rupert Murdoch. The difference between him and say CNN and the days of Ted Turner at his most powerful is what exactly?

quote:

It is played out again and again on these threads that you can bring out "facts" and even though they are reliable they will be dismissed because they conflict with  preconceived notions of the said event.
The fairness doctrine is the cure for hard-headiness, or stubbornness?

quote:

I don't think there is any sense in administering the "Fairness Doctrine" 
We have total agreement. The pendulum will swing back again. Its at its most boring when it stops completely in the middle.


I don't believe I ever stated anything about corps or rich individuals ever being part of the problem....I love the rich!

I do believe that Fox has contributed to the dummying down of America....And yes, I believe that Americans were more informed on both sides of an issue in days past.  Every network is immersed in some sort of a bias....And let's be realistic the Fairness Doctrine would be in place to combat FOX...Which promotes itself as a news network...Yanno, fair and balanced and all that crud..yadda..yadda...yadda!!.......Most Americans couldn't find Iraq on a map if their lives depended upon it....It's the sign o' the times....We are a NASCAR Nation.  There is no sense in bringing back any doctrine that might force someone to confront their beliefs....

"And the twenty four car has taken the lead!!!"  ZROOOOOM!!!!!

< Message edited by domiguy -- 5/15/2007 4:03:20 PM >

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