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RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:11:55 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Greetings kinky kitten and welcome to the boards!

(Whatever 'reply' icon you click in whoevers little post square will determine who it says your responding to - don't worry about it, we all forget or do it wrong sometimes)

quote:

The only thing I have to say I would be concerned with is the Doms attitude
quote:

when he answered quite blatantly 'with my fist's or feet sub'! I had to ask him again to clarify what he meant just so I was sure I hadnt misunderstood him and asked did he mean to actually beat them up with his fists or feet, to which he answered 'Of Course, how else?

Of course how else??? I would be more concerned with his lack of imagination, if this is truly the only method of punishment he can think of...


I totally agree. The punishment of beatings with hands and feet isn't wrong persay (personal choice et al)- but it is the attitude in the response that sends alarm bells to me.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Rebelkinkykitten)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:14:32 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
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quote:

I have a friend who is masochistic and LOVES being slapped in the face, it puts her into the right headspace and gives her a thrill like nothing else can...personally I'd knock the shit out of someone who slapped me, even as a joke or for fun.


I can honestly say I can find no thrill in slapping or being slapped in the face. Quite the opposite, I am appalled by it. Yes, I am a firm believer in corporal punishment. My kids are well aware of that. The ass is well padded and a good target. The rest of the human body is not nearly as tough though. As far as I am concerned, punching and kicking is done strictly to inflict damage, I see no merit in using it as a form of punishment. I do understand the concept of degradation, I also do not see it as something viable for me.

I'll share a little about me here just to help you to understand where I am coming from. Apparently I was born with a eye disorder that went unnoticed through adulthood. It didn't surface until after I had escape an abusive marraige. When he got angry with me, he slapped me across the face repeatedly... (ok, that's enough to make me dislike face slapping) but that isn't all of it. Because of the face slapping I ended up with torn retinas and the process of the muscles degenerating was excelerated. Yes, that means I face blindness.

I understand there are some extreme masochists out there, and that's what they get into, but a part of me can't help but wonder what goes on in the mind of the all parties involved? What good can punching or kicking someone do? Big deal, it's consensual... how about lets talk about women in the 'nilla world(and this one) that are beat up on a regular basis by an abusive spouse. They stay, they stay and they take it... why? Because some just don't know any other way, some do it out of fear and some do it because they have no place else to go. Yet we look at these women and feel either sorry for them or are sickened by their ignorance, but if they say, it's ok, he's a Dom... then we say, oh, that's ok, it's consensual. Bull shit. Any thing that is done specifically to cause serious damage is just plain abusive and the person that is on the other end needs to be educated, not cheered on and not ignored.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to misundersub)
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RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:16:08 AM   
Foibey


Posts: 54
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		Surely the one main thing that practicing BDSM teaches any of us is that scary things can sometimes be hot, and done correctly in a safe and controlled manner can lead to personal fulfilment and validation without actually being inappropriate or abusive.

That isn't to say that abuse can't happen within BDSM relationships. There's always the possibility that within the framework of a BDSM relationship someone will become manipulative and/or abusive, that they'll beat their sub in anger rather than as their trainer (and hitting someone in anger isn't punishment duly handed out to the sub, it's an expression of a master/mistress's inability to control themselves and those two things are very different from each other). The important thing is learning to tell the difference. Someone with a kink for being hit in the face could potentially beg their partner to hit them in the face, and if the person doing the hitting was uncomfortable and had been manipulated into going through with it, who would be abusing who in that situation?

It's not your actions but also their contexts and the intent behind them that matter.

edited to say: The fact that someone sticks around in a relationship doesn't necessarily mean that what is happening is consensual. There are various forces that people in a relationship can apply to each other to wrangle them into sticking around when they oughtn't. I was punched in the face by my ex in anger ages ago and it took til a few weeks ago for me to leave her. "No, she's changed", "Things are going to be ok now", etc. The mind is the greatest tool for abuse around.

< Message edited by Foibey -- 5/13/2005 5:42:44 AM >

(in reply to Rebelkinkykitten)
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RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:23:26 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

I can honestly say I can find no thrill in slapping or being slapped in the face. Quite the opposite, I am appalled by it. Yes, I am a firm believer in corporal punishment. My kids are well aware of that. The ass is well padded and a good target. The rest of the human body is not nearly as tough though. As far as I am concerned, punching and kicking is done strictly to inflict damage, I see no merit in using it as a form of punishment. I do understand the concept of degradation, I also do not see it as something viable for me.


quote:

I understand there are some extreme masochists out there, and that's what they get into, but a part of me can't help but wonder what goes on in the mind of the all parties involved? What good can punching or kicking someone do? Big deal, it's consensual...


Please don't take this personally but I had to comment on this.
Its my personal view only.

To me, punishment is wrong if it isn't consensual. A lot of people get a sexual stimulation from it. Others, don't use it for a sexual response, but it is a tool to get them into a certain headspace. But corporal punishment isn't consensual - and the conogtations it has with wiitwd (in our opinion) would be wrong.

Peace and Love

Just offering over another viewpoint.

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:34:07 AM   
Foibey


Posts: 54
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		Corporal punishment isn't consensual?

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:35:17 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
Any thing that is done specifically to cause serious damage is just plain abusive and the person that is on the other end needs to be educated, not cheered on and not ignored.

Jewel [/color]


Depends on what you mean by "damage."

I'm sorry about your personal experiences, but punching and kicking and slapping can all easily be done without serious damage. They teach courses on it at bdsm groups, it's the entire focus of martial arts, and I can tell you I've experience myself AND watched others experience it and didn't consider any of it abusive.

You don't have to get anything out of it, but we can't just start saying "I don't understand it, it could be really damaging, therefore it IS abusive, no matter what the people doing it say."

In the specific example we have- yes even if the sub consents it COULD be abusive. I'm not about to say that anything done in the name of kink is off-limits for abuse. However, the act itself is not abusive IMO.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:37:48 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Personally I'm fine with being hit in anger, and I know it can be done in a controlled, non-abusive way. Working with anger energy can be a highly intense experience and lots of people in the scene do it.

Part of it for me is being the vessel of release. Not as a martyr, but simply a conduit for people to express their energy with/on and reach a better place. Anger is no different than another emotion in this.

(in reply to Foibey)
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RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:40:20 AM   
mistoferin


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Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

I'm sorry about your personal experiences, but punching and kicking and slapping can all easily be done without serious damage.


While I agree with you on this aspect, I think that what was stated in the OP's original post said something different. She stated that she asked this Dominant for clarification....which he gave....that he would beat them up using his fists and feet. To me that is a very clear message.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:40:53 AM   
Foibey


Posts: 54
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		Good point I guess. I'll try and think of a better way to conceptualise it. Spose the best way is to say it's wrong when deep down it isn't really in the interests of both parties (bearing in mind that being treated "abusively" may be in the sub's interests). But saying when that is is hard.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
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RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 5:45:25 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Foibey

Corporal punishment isn't consensual?


Not in the context of the post I was responding to as I understood it.

If you wish to re-examine, I hope you can comprehend my reasoning.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Foibey)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 8:02:24 AM   
darksparkle


Posts: 48
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ShiftedJewel
... how about lets talk about women in the 'nilla world(and this one) that are beat up on a regular basis by an abusive spouse. They stay, they stay and they take it... why? Because some just don't know any other way, some do it out of fear and some do it because they have no place else to go. Yet we look at these women and feel either sorry for them or are sickened by their ignorance, but if they say, it's ok, he's a Dom... then we say, oh, that's ok, it's consensual. Bull shit. Any thing that is done specifically to cause serious damage is just plain abusive and the person that is on the other end needs to be educated, not cheered on and not ignored.



quote:

Foibey
That isn't to say that abuse can't happen within BDSM relationships. There's always the possibility that within the framework of a BDSM relationship someone will become manipulative and/or abusive, that they'll beat their sub in anger rather than as their trainer (and hitting someone in anger isn't punishment duly handed out to the sub, it's an expression of a master/mistress's inability to control themselves and those two things are very different from each other). The important thing is learning to tell the difference.


Thank you!

These are examples of what I was trying to convey in my posts...
Bravo...

Even in a consensual relationship there is a difference between punishment and abusive punishment. So many fail to understand this.

That's all I have to say...

Wishing all a wonderful safe weekend...

Elvis has left the building...






(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 8:09:52 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darksparkle
Even in a consensual relationship there is a difference between punishment and abusive punishment. So many fail to understand this.

That's all I have to say...

Oh I agree with this.

But punching and kicking, even done in punishment, is not in itself abusive.

(in reply to darksparkle)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 8:12:18 AM   
Kiaban


Posts: 124
Joined: 7/11/2004
Status: offline 		OP
"Recently I was chatting to a Dom and after about 20 mins of 'questioning' I finally found it in myself to ask him 'how he if his subs/slaves had been disobedient, did he punish them?' and to b quite frank i was appalled when he answered quite blatantly 'with my fist's or feet sub'! I had to ask him again to clarify what he meant just so I was sure I hadnt misunderstood him and asked did he mean to actually beat them up with his fists or feet, to which he answered 'Of Course, how else?

I was quite repulsed and politely hauled my ass outta there"

Actually the op did check into this, decided it was not for them, moved on, really case closed.
Its really that easy since so many people have their own way of dealing with things.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 1:53:56 PM   
Tristan


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline 		Safe, Sane, and Consensual does not cover coercion and poor decision making. Yet it is used to justify nearly all forms of behavior. It seems to give the dominant the right to do what ever he or she desires without regard for his or her submissive.

I’ve noticed many who are dominant only because they have unresolved issues in a Ted Bundy sort of way. These are the people who have no concern for the physical or emotional welfare of their partners. There is a difference between having a dominant personality and having the need to dominate someone in order to make yourself feel better (i.e. Ted Bundy or the less extreme). Both types of dominants can easily get consent for their actions. Yet, few in the bdsm community seem to condemn or even question the second type of dominant if his or her actions are consensual.

When people like misundersub get a bad feeling about someone’s behavior, I think it’s generally a good indication that something is wrong. There might not be anything wrong, but you really better make sure you ask the right questions.

Tristan

(in reply to Kiaban)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 2:04:41 PM   
Foibey


Posts: 54
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		As far as poor decision making goes, I think it depends on how you view it. Obviously if both parties are committed to playing SSC, then problems that come up are likely to be unavoidable accidents. However, if one party is trying to manipulate the other into something against the other's interest or will then clearly it's an attempt at subverting consent and circumscribing certain elements of safety and sanity. The problem is being able to tell when this is happening or not.

As much as anything, any psychological abuse within a BDSM relationship must also carry with it an abuse of trust that the other's intentions are good.

< Message edited by Foibey -- 5/13/2005 2:06:02 PM >

(in reply to Tristan)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/13/2005 3:18:36 PM   
misundersub


Posts: 10
Joined: 5/7/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the replies :o)

Ive been on the recieving end twice in my lifetime, 1st time tho bad enuff wasnt so bad, the 2nd time was the worst 5mins or so of my life, so when a male regardless of his lifestyle but specifically this one says to me thats how he chooses to punish a sub/slave it immediatley clatter's those alarm bells.

What worries me (and I come into this category) is if he is looking for ppl who are new to the lifestyle, (and lets face we stick out like a sore thumb) it will be incredibly easy for him to mislead them because not all subs/slaves will have the foresight to ask such a question and would be in too deep before they realised. Thank god i was in the common sense queue!

misundersub.



(in reply to Foibey)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/15/2005 1:34:27 PM   
Domcat


Posts: 14
Joined: 5/13/2005
Status: offline 		Hi misundersub, the first thing you must realize is most so called doms on line are not doms at all and that is why this idiot gave you the answer that he did...Domcat

(in reply to misundersub)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 5/15/2005 1:47:03 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Domcat

Hi misundersub, the first thing you must realize is most so called doms on line are not doms at all and that is why this idiot gave you the answer that he did...Domcat


I must say I totally disagree.

Not that most people online are cyberwankers, but that -that- was the reason he told her what he did. I think it likely that he simply has a different style of dicipline than some.

One's methods do not make one any less what one says one is. They simply give insight into the -style- of a given person, IMHO>

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Domcat)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 7/5/2005 9:55:00 PM   
SirDiscipliner69


Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		I actually discuss punishment before hand with the sub...punishment is not something on should want ...discipline is another thing....

While I agree what you mentioned may seem somewhat rough that is something some enjoy..it should be discussed and limits should be respected and observed..

I would not disrespect a sub who balked at this at all..it is not soemthing for all..nor do I personally practice it...

There are far too many other means to be used than to resort to fists and feet for Me...



(in reply to misundersub)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Is it unreasonable to baulk at this? - 7/5/2005 9:57:56 PM   
SirDiscipliner69


Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline 		I feel that a reasonable punishment is something that is in scale with the transgression...

It is something that was discussed before hand..perameters defined...and carried out after discussion...

It is not however something that is done purposely setting up a sub for failure as to achieve severe reaction...

I personally do not need a reason to disciplne...and need time to contemplate the need and method of punishment...

No stupid dom tricks needed...

imho

(in reply to leatherylace)
Profile   Post #: 40
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