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a good death - 5/17/2007 1:27:13 AM   
LadyEllen


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We had a re-run this week of a TV programme originally broadcast last year, about death and dying in the UK. It featured several cases of people at the end of their lives and also surveys about the subject.

What came across, was that there is enormous distress and disquiet about the way in which dying is managed in hospitals in the UK;
- people left to die in agony for days, because they have had the maximum dose of pain relief (the maximum dose is relevant how, when someone is dying anyway?)
- people left to die in indignity, in their own faeces and with wet sheets
- lives prolonged along with severe pain, when such management is no longer useful or productive
- family treated as if they are in the way

It would seem that much of this arises from the idea that hospital is about making people well, and they are not set up for assisting a good death or even for dealing with failure in their aim of curing. Palliative care doctors are also in short supply, and regarded as one step above psychiatrists by their peers, in a country with the same population as France but with half the number of doctors in the first place.

What also became clear, was that dying and death remain taboo. Very few ever discuss it, even fewer have any sort of living will. The issue remains dark, and then it is too late.

To me, all of this seems ridiculous. For what reason would someone be left to die for days in pain? Of what benefit is it to restrict their morphine to safe doses? How can medical staff leave someone to die like this?

At the same time, I know the reasons. A doctor who gives more morphine than the recommended dose could be arrested for murder and have his life ruined for his mercy. And such a law comes not from any sensible analysis of the situation but from the influence of Christian ideas about life and death which are insinuated into the lives of all of us, when we have a population which at the most is only 10% Christian. We have had bills presented in Parliament before now, to permit doctors the freedom to participate in assisted death - all of which have failed amid howls of protest against the idea from those who feel that such actions violate the laws of a God that few outside their circles have any belief in.

So, would you prefer to have an assisted death at your request should you be terminally ill? Or would you prefer to suffer a prolonged death in pain?

Assisted death is now permitted in Switzerland. That the most recently publicised British participant in that scheme was a doctor who had seen the way that dying is handled in the UK, says a lot I feel. That her family almost got charged with a criminal offence for travelling with her, says a lot about the UK too.

E


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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 1:30:02 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Refuse to read your post. This is the subject that keeps me awake at night.

I DEMAND to know how you get offline so quickly after posting.

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 1:41:12 AM   
Domin8tingUrDrmz


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When I think of the phrase 'assisted suicide' what comes to mind is a person helping another person (who is otherwise healthy) kill themselves.  I realize that the term also refers to a doctor assisting a person with a serious illness to end their lives. 

With that said, I am not opposed to doctors helping their patients die with dignity and at a time when they are comfortable to let go.  I think a more appropriate term should be "death with dignity" or "assisted peace".  I am not comfortable with the idea of what 'assisted suicide' conjures up in my head, a healthy person, depressed, seeking out someone who will help them die. 

I would not want to live on life support while in tremendous pain.  Save the room and resources for those who want them.  I have a living will, a DNR directive, and my family knows my wishes, all of them.  All have promised me that they would not let me live in such a state should something like that ever happen to me. 

As far as religion shoving their views on peoples lives, well, I too am rather sick of their interferences on how I or anyone else handle my/their affairs.  If someone wants to follow their own personal beliefs and chooses to accept the practices that their religion holds dear, go for it, just keep it out of MY life and my choices.

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 1:43:37 AM   
farglebargle


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You aren't really FREE if you cannot do with YOUR OWN SELF, whatever you choose.

The idea that The Government has *ANY* role in dictating those choices reduces all Free People to nothing but The Government's Slaves.



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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 1:52:17 AM   
LadyEllen


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Sorry Seeks!

And, to answer your question, I'm here, but not all there....

E

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 3:23:15 AM   
Level


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Generally, I support someone's being able to call an end to things.

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 3:27:53 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

When I think of the phrase 'assisted suicide' what comes to mind is a person helping another person (who is otherwise healthy) kill themselves.  I realize that the term also refers to a doctor assisting a person with a serious illness to end their lives. 

With that said, I am not opposed to doctors helping their patients die with dignity and at a time when they are comfortable to let go.  I think a more appropriate term should be "death with dignity" or "assisted peace".  I am not comfortable with the idea of what 'assisted suicide' conjures up in my head, a healthy person, depressed, seeking out someone who will help them die. 



This is exactly what I feel too - we cannot have a law that says its OK to assist suicide, because the dangers of that being abused are enormous. Knocking off wealthy uncle Bob in order to claim an inheritance, for instance.

But if two doctors/specialist consultants (for instance) agree that someone is terminally ill, then there ought to be no problem whatever for them to provide that person the means to die free of pain and with dignity.

E

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 4:29:04 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Terminally ill. How about the ravages wreaked by extreme old age which can eliminate anything that can be meaningfully called being alive.
I wouldn't  do it to others but I cant see any objection to people having the option to be aided to take that  route.themselves. Happens now anyway, in practice probably without the knowledge or consent of the patient.
Relatives may be informed, thats from my experience.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/17/2007 4:31:34 AM >

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 4:58:19 AM   
darkinshadows


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I take it we saw the same programme?  The one with Esther?
 
I actually took away alot more positive view from the programme about death and am now no longer afraid of dying if I was a cancer patient definately.  I know there was reports on the negative aspects of some of the care homes and hospices, but on the whole, I found the programme incredibly moving and affirming.
 
I already know how I wish my funeral to go should Darcy be in agreement - there is a wonderful 'natural' graveyard close to where he lives and I am hoping they will pop up more and more (I hope to hang around a bit longer yet!) where everything is natural - no horrid gravestones or memorials, just everything rots into the soil so no huge caskets and stone.  Just simple recycling coffins or cremations with a simple wooden cross or seat and unmarked graves.  It is absolutely amazing to wander around and is an incredibly calm place... (Darcy took some amazing photographs of the area).  You aren;t even sure when you are walking on a old grave, let alone anything else.
 
Assisted death can be a choice, but with the correct healthcare and loving family it isn't as painful or as scarey as first imagined.  I never saw responsible medical staff in this programme letting the patients who were passing suffer.  Although there was a distinct gap between cancer and terminal patients.
 
The most important thing for people to discuss is the living wills, the death itself and the after thoughts.  I really don't want a wake - I would rather a celebration.
 
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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 5:00:54 AM   
asubmissiveheart


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I believe people should have the right to request assisted suicide in certain situations.
Allow people to die in comfort and dignity if that is their decision.

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 5:07:11 AM   
earthycouple


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I only browsed the answers relating to this post.  I am a firm believer in a good death.  As most now know, I'm a nurse and my passion is truly hospice work, more to the point, pediatric hospice.  Death in the U.S. is being seen more and more, as important as living.  We now consider pain the 5th vital sign and healthcare workers from nursing assistants to doctors are supposed to rate pain with a patient upon entering their room.  If the patient can't speak then a visual assesment is to be done.  If pain is an issue, it is dealt with immediately. (Or should be).

Pain management classes are on the rise for the healthcare worker and not only are we using stronger drugs more often but alternative therapies as well (scent therapy, massage therapy and so on). 

What was once considered to be "addictive behavior" we have also learned that there is a difference between chronic pain management and addiction.  Any healthcare worker worth her salt will know the difference.

I am most passionate about death and dying and this being as easy a time as it can be in a time when there is so much stress in the life of a person and his family. 

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 5:22:37 AM   
darkinshadows


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A doctor who specialised in cancer won me over on the programme - stating that if you want to sleep your death away, you may sleep and they will give you the drugs - you need the morphine, you get it - you want to die at home - then they do everything they can to get you there.  I think people like yourself have a fantastically difficult job with all the regulations and stipulations you have to go through and carry it through admirably.
 
Peace


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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 5:42:35 PM   
minnetar


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i believe in a physician giving a patient the most relief he can.  i have a problem with assisted suicide as to who determines what is a "terminal illness".  Do you determine to assist in suicide once a patient has been diagnosed or later?

minnetar

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 5:49:18 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

So, would you prefer to have an assisted death at your request should you be terminally ill? Or would you prefer to suffer a prolonged death in pain?



Assisted

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 6:04:04 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Sorry Seeks!

And, to answer your question, I'm here, but not all there....

E


oh i had it backwards, i thought you were there but not all here?  :)


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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 6:08:47 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You aren't really FREE if you cannot do with YOUR OWN SELF, whatever you choose.

The idea that The Government has *ANY* role in dictating those choices reduces all Free People to nothing but The Government's Slaves.




agreed!

but it should never enter into law like abortion.

like i always said wtf are they going to do if i commit suicide?  sue me?  LOL

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/17/2007 6:10:07 PM >


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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 6:14:01 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen



So, would you prefer to have an assisted death at your request should you be terminally ill?






       Within my family, there are a lot of really morbid jokes about the manner of death we prefer.  Our "Grands" and "Greats" mostly died slowly, with drama and chaos, or great pain.  I doubt my 'shoot me if I start drooling' pact is the only one.

     I plan to get old in the state of Oregon, which has legal allowances for this (unless I really missed something in the news).

      (assisted suicide allowances, not murder covenants)

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 5/17/2007 6:16:22 PM >


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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 6:18:59 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: asubmissiveheart

I believe people should have the right to request assisted suicide in certain situations.
Allow people to die in comfort and dignity if that is their decision.


right?  right as in specific law would be foolish.  right in terms of no government intervention as in like FB said it is our body and we control it yes.  If we have the right to life it goes without saying we also have the right to death. that is with no additional "color" of law added.


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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 10:38:17 PM   
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My own experience  with people who were dying was that the public hospitals in Australia were very respectful of a person's right up until they died.  This would probably have a lot to do with the fact that these people were not in emergency departments where I know that they are often understaffed but were in specific oncology units which seemed to have staff with more awareness and compassion for their patients as well as lower staff/patient ratios.  Medical staff are able to provide increased levels of pain relief and medication that will have a depressant effect on the respiratory system. There are also hospices and some homecare and volunteer organisations which enable a person to have a lot more control over their environment and how they die including setting up volunteers to be with a person for 24 hours a day in their home.  People who chose to die at home were also able to use other non-prescribed drugs to provide some pain relief although it was heartbreaking to watch some people who were still in obvious distress despite having the maximum doses of medications … some types of bone cancers seem particularly resistant.

There does still appear to be a taboo about talking about death and about planning how you want to die in the worst case scenarios and I feel that the main way to overcome this is to talk openly with your significant others about the ‘what if’ situations. How many people tick the box on their licence to be organ donors and never discuss this with their families … the result, that person’s wishes can be over-ruled by their family.

Gosh, I have rambled and possibly not even addressed the main discussion points…in answer to your question “So, would you prefer to have an assisted death at your request should you be terminally ill? Or would you prefer to suffer a prolonged death in pain?” …. I definitely would like to have choices if terminally ill and my own preference would be to go to a hospice, have a Do Not Resuscitate plan and also a living will and care plan ie. stay out of pain where possible but not do anything to prolong my life.

Ps. On a more general note, the public (and private) health system in Australia definitely needs more funding, more staff and more beds and a large part of our problem is that we cannot get staff so they close down beds and wards.

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RE: a good death - 5/17/2007 10:50:21 PM   
Sinergy


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I have told my closest friends that I would consider it an act of true friendship to put me out of my misery.

If they asked, I would do the same for them.  The scene where Clint Eastwood assists Hillary Swank to die in Million Dollar Baby makes me all weepy.

Sinergy

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