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RE: Amnesty For Criminals Passed in the Senate - 5/21/2007 11:43:31 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LightHeartedMaam

And yes, I'm happy to pay more for this  business and their results.



I have argued with more people about the old adage "You get what you pay for."

Hiring somebody bonded and licensed and insured with references, purchasing a well made part rather than some sweatshop knock off, paying $300 for Wusthoff-Trident professional quality knives, as opposed to a Ginsu knife from QVC, generally ends up with a better result at the far side.

But a corporate bean-counter, insulated from reality, only interested in making the checkmark on their to-do list, and willing to push the problem to the next set of people in the organization, feels that people are interchangeable parts.

It is everybody else who is forced to use the product created that has to pay the price.

I am one of those people who wants to do it right the first time, and is willing to pay the extra money to get it done right.  As opposed to one of those who enjoys adding the cost to make it right to the cost of doing it wrong.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to LightHeartedMaam)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Amnesty For Criminals Passed in the Senate - 5/22/2007 7:15:46 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
Two leaders protecting basic sovereignty coming from polar opposite political philosophies.
Pity the Republicans and Democrats don't get it. Wouldn't you love to know how much the Corporations paid into the collective campaigns?

quote:

France's minister of immigration and national identity, a new ministry created by President Nicolas Sarkozy, has ruled out legalizing undocumented immigrants en masse Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=456666&in_page_id=1811&ito=1490


quote:

More than 70 000 Afghans who were in Iran illegally have been returned in the past month, the United Nations said on Monday, as talks were under way between the neighbours over the controversial deportations. Source: http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2116696,00.html

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Amnesty For Criminals Passed in the Senate - 5/23/2007 3:30:31 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
 
We are giving amnesty to criminals in the Senate?

Doesnt seem very fair to the criminals in the House.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Amnesty For Criminals Passed in the Senate - 5/24/2007 9:41:35 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
There will be some who point to the source of this reference as being prejudicial however it does provide the full text of the Senate Bill. Anyone up to the challenge is welcome to try to read it raw; all 1,000 pages:
quote:

Secure Borders, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Reform Act of 2007

View Online
Download PDF (1 MB) 

 
Looking for talking points here are some short cuts. Going to the source referenced will expand on each of these 10 points and provide additional commentary: (Source:  http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1468.cfm )
quote:

 Flawed Provisions
The following are ten of the worst provisions—by no means an exhaustive list—of Title VI of the bill:


  1. A Massive Amnesty: Title VI of the bill grants amnesty to virtually all of the 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens in the country today. Also acceptable under the legislation is a sworn affidavit from a non-relative (see Section 601(i)(2)). 
    The price of a Z visa is $3,000 for individuals. A family of five could purchase visas for the bargain price of $5,000—some $20,000 short of the net cost that household is likely to impose on local, state, and federal government each year, according to Heritage Foundation calculations.
  2. The Permanent "Temporary" Visa: Supporters of the bill call the Z visa a "temporary" visa. However, they neglect to mention that it can be renewed every four years until the visa holder dies, according to Section 601(k)(2) of the legislation.
    A law-abiding alien with a normal non-immigrant visa would surely desire this privileged status. Unfortunately for him, only illegal aliens can qualify, according Section 601(c)(1).
  3. Hobbled Background Checks: The bill would make it extremely difficult for the federal government to prevent criminals and terrorists from obtaining legal status. Under Section 601(h)(1), the bill would allow the government only one business day to conduct a background check to determine whether an applicant is a criminal or terrorist. Unless the government can find a reason not to grant it by the end of the next business day after the alien applies, the alien receives a probationary Z visa (good from the time of approval until six months after the date Z visas begin to be approved, however long that may be) that lets him roam throughout the country and seek employment legally.

    The problem is that there is no single, readily searchable database of all of the dangerous people in the world.
  4. Amnesty for "Absconders": Title VI's amnesty extends even to fugitives who have been ordered deported by an immigration judge but chose to ignore their removal orders. This would also be a reward to those who have defied U.S. immigration courts. (Indeed, the massive bureaucratic load caused by processing Z visas would undoubtedly mean longer waits for those who have played by the rules.) Further, those who have obeyed the law and complied with deportation orders would not be eligible for Z visas.
  5. Reverse Justice: The bill would effectively shut down the immigration court system. Under Section 601(h)(6), if an alien in the removal process is "prima facie eligible" for the Z visa, an immigration judge must close any proceedings against the alien and offer the alien an opportunity to apply for amnesty.
  6. Enforcement of Amnesty, Not Laws: The bill would transform Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) from a law enforcement agency into an amnesty distribution center. Under Sections 601(h)(1, 5) if an ICE agent apprehends aliens who appear to be eligible for the Z visa (in other words, just about any illegal alien), the agent cannot detain them. Instead, ICE must provide them a reasonable opportunity to apply for the Z visa. Instead of initiating removal proceedings, ICE will be initiating amnesty applications. This is the equivalent of turning the Drug Enforcement Agency into a needle-distribution network.
  7. Amnesty for Gang Members: Under Section 602(g)(2) of the bill, gang members would be eligible to receive amnesty. This comes at a time when violent international gangs, such as Mara Salvatrucha 13 (or "MS-13"), have brought mayhem to U.S. cities. More than 30,000 illegal-alien gang members operate in 33 states, trafficking in drugs, arms, and people. The Senate bill would end that. To qualify for amnesty, all a gang member would need to do is note his gang membership and sign a "renunciation of gang affiliation."
  8. Tuition Subsidies for Illegal Aliens: The Senate bill incorporates the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act (DREAM Act). The DREAM Act effectively repeals a 1996 federal law (8 U.S.C. § 1623) that prohibits any state from offering in-state tuition rates to illegal aliens unless the state also offers in-state tuition rates to all U.S. citizens. Ten states are currently defying this federal law. Section 616 would allow these and all other states to offer in-state tuition rates to any illegal alien who obtains the Z visa and attends college.

    The injustice of this provision is obvious. Illegal aliens would receive a taxpayer subsidy worth tens of thousands of dollars and would be treated better than U.S. citizens from out of state, who must pay three to four times as much to attend college.
    Further, legal aliens who possess an appropriate F, J, or M student visa would not receive this valuable benefit. Nor would they be eligible for the federal student loans that illegal aliens could obtain by this provision.
  9. Taxpayer-Funded Lawyers for Illegal Aliens: The Senate's bill would force taxpayers to foot the bill for many illegal aliens' lawyers.  This provision alone could cost hundreds of millions of dollars each year.
  10. Amnesty Before Enforcement Triggers. Proponents of the Senate approach have consistently claimed that it would allow delayed amnesty only after certain law enforcement goals are met. The text of the bill, however, tells a different story. Section 1(a) allows provisional Z visas to be issued immediately after enactment, and Section 601(f)(2) prohibits the federal government from waiting more than 180 days after enactment to begin issuing provisional Z visas.

Comments, especially those with opposing viewpoints, are encouraged.

I've spent the morning hearing the rationalized comments of Senators from both parties. There common answer to any challenge, especially on the points raised above, was that we have to trust them regarding enforcement and cost.

I've yet to hear one interviewer respond to the most common challenge made to those offended by this Bill. The supporting Senators ask, "If we don't do this, what else can we do?".

The answer is basic, simple, and pragmatically possible; enforce the existing immigration laws with the focus on the employers. Putting a few of them in prison and all of a sudden they stop hiring. Once the hiring stops the people don't come over the border. At that point, when the citizens and those legally in the US are earning an appropriate wage for work, instead of a wage artificially low due to hiring these illegals, I'll be first in line to support any guest worker or immigration program that is necessary to support US industry and production.

QED!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Amnesty For Criminals Passed in the Senate - 5/24/2007 11:43:35 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
Merc, correct!
Just do what they SHOULD have been doing all this time!
I don't trust them either!
Anyone who votes for this POS is just going to be Cannon Fodder from the Opposition running against them!
They'll beat them to death with this issue.
And wait till they have to face the Voters back in their own states.

Q.E.D. Four times a day?

Sinergy, speaking of Corporations have you ever noticed that the "Efficiency Experts" never want to do the things they want other people to do?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Amnesty For Criminals Passed in the Senate - 5/24/2007 3:03:27 PM   
Jack45


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline
Editorial re the HERITAGE STUDY:
The immigration time-bomb
 May 23, 2007 The Washington Times

quote:

...the illegals who would get amnesty under the Senate bill, who will cost taxpayers $2.3 to $2.5 trillion over the next few decades...

 "So the bottom line is that each of these households receives about $30,000 in government benefits, pays about $10,000 in taxes, at a net cost of around $19,000 per year [after rounding]. That's the equivalent of buying each of these households an automobile and every year of their lives as long as they're in the United States." He easily debunks the myth that amnesty will "contribute to solving Social Security's actuarial crisis." Precisely the opposite is true; it is certain to exacerbate that crisis and many of this country's other fiscal problems. "What we found was that this type of household is in net fiscal deficit -- the benefits exceed their taxes -- at every year from the point they enter the United States. There's no year where they pay more in taxes, on average, than they take out in benefits." When these people retire, they pay just $5,000 a year in taxes and get $37,000 a year in benefits. That's some contribution to a solution.


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Amnesty For Criminals Passed in the Senate - 6/4/2007 7:42:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
The expected waning of anger is being interpreted as acceptance and surrender. Have you called your congressman/senator today?

quote:

After a week at home with their constituents, the Senate architects of a delicate immigration compromise are increasingly convinced that they will hold together this week to pass an overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, with momentum building behind one unifying theme: Today's immigration system is too broken to go unaddressed.
"You just have to recognize you will get 300 calls, you'll get conflicts at town hall meetings -- all of them negative," said Rep. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.), who consulted with Kyl and hopes to carry a similar deal through the House in July. "The last few days have really turned things around."
Public opinion polls seem to support Kyl's contention that Americans are far more open to the deal than the voices of opposition would indicate. In a Washington Post-ABC News poll released today, 52 percent of Americans said they would support a program giving illegal immigrants the right to stay and work in the United States if they pay a fine and meet other requirements. Opposition to that proposal was 44 percent. 


The argument isn't that this is a fair Bill, or a "good" Bill. The argument is, this is the ONLY thing that can be done. Well how about enforcing the existing laws regarding employer hiring? In the face of the fact that no employers have been arrested and fined for breaking the existing laws, how much confidence should anyone have for the enforcement of this new batch of laws? What bureaucracy will be created which can efficiently do 12 Million background checks in 24 hours? Who will be out rounding up and arresting those that don't come forward to wait in line to pay the $5,000 fine? What a farce! And because the din of anger has died down it's being interpreted as surrender.

I'm hearing more and more from people who think it's foolish to fight this on an economic level. Arresting the criminal employers and deporting the illegal workers will raise prices. Well of course it will. It will also raise wages and tilt the playing field favoring unskilled or blue collar workers. We don't want that do we? After all, ALL US citizens are exceptional college graduates who don't want to be roofers, drive trucks/heavy equipment, run or work at nurseries and lawn care companies. US Citizens don't want to built houses, install drywall, be food service workers. We need to insure these jobs will have 12 million additional, legal workers seeing the new $7.25/hour minimum wage as a boon. At least you need to support this initiative if you run a trucking company, a warehouse, a construction firm, gardening company, catering company, or any company where you've had to pay $20/hour for the same work. Yes - you're assured for at least 2 generations of $7.25/hour people.

What a great Bill for the working class... of Mexico. For the US Citizens...?

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 67
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