RE: Reproductive Rights

RE: Reproductive Rights (Full Version)

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pinksugarsub -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 12:26:04 PM)
i have already given my opinion, and dun feel like arguing. However i wanted to say i was right about this community of P/pl; Y/you can discuss a "hot topic" without flaming.

domiguy -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 12:50:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onestandingstill quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Who is going to take care of all of these unwanted children...onestandingstill, navyguy? I think not. While social services and foster care do leave a lot to be disired it is in place in this country last I checked. I know many many people who can't have kids are on adoption lists over ten years for a newborn child of any color. I'm going to put this comment in the "I heard my babies heart beat at three days dept." http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/wwwhuman/Hum10wk/Hum10wk.htm We go abroad to adopt "our" babies and that is a fact....Again who is going to take care of these kids...In far too many cases the biological mother will choose to hang onto these unwanted kids...And yes she will be dealt with by social workers, the court system and in many cases be on the states assistance program until the child reaches an age where he/she can be successfuly incarcerated....If she chooses adoption there are not enough homes willing to accept these children. Yes you say that.... quote: onestandingstill "No, I'd rather women be more responsible stewards of their pregnancies, children and bodies. No child should have to die because the mother does not want to deal with it." Well I am going to fuck Halle Berry tonight.....If this is your plan to take care of these children through hope and wishes...We all better then start paying more taxes to increase our social service and assistance programs cause that is where many of these mothers and their unwanted children are heading....If not we can always build more prisons and graveyards.

CrimsonMoan -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 1:07:02 PM)
[/quote] While social services and foster care do leave a lot to be disired it is in place in this country last I checked. I know many many people who can't have kids are on adoption lists over ten years for a newborn child of any color. [/quote] And LIKE I said people are too wrapped up in the "joy" of adopting an infant when there older kids in the system waiting to be adopted. Most of the people on the list waiting for a baby could be off it much sooner if they were willing to adopt an older child.

onestandingstill -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 1:22:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I'm going to put this comment in the "I heard my babies heart beat at three days dept." Maybe before you get sarcastic you should read what was said. I said I saw a heart beat in a sonogram, not heard it. I also came back and said the person who'd done the sonogram pointed it out to me and put that in my mind. Seeing something pulsing and having them tell me that it was the heart of the fetus I didn't even know was there was 25 years ago just left me believing this health professional . I accepted that may have indeed been naive of me, but hey, I opened my mind and learned something today so I'm still glad I mentioned it even if people like you use it against me to discount my opinion as valid. You're welcome to your opinion and though I think you're wrong in the way you handled this I still appreciate your opposing view. Yes, indeed I don't know everything, I never have said I do. At least I'm open to seeing it from other points of view, which I don't see much from you. You're entitled to discount everything I say as far as I'm concerned as your opinion of me is not relevant to me being we're strangers. suzanne edited to add LOL good luck fucking Ms Barry tonight, where's that happening in your mind??? You'd have to prove that one before I'd believe it.

HutchGarahl -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 1:43:59 PM)
Ok, time for my $0.02, and I know I will more than likely get flamed...but who cares. So here goes......... I don't care how anyone looks at it.......ABORTION IS MURDER! Have any of you actually seen an aborted fetus? I have..it's NOT a pretty sight. While in a case of the life of a mother being at stake, should she actually try to carry, I might...and only might could see abortion an option....but only AFTER possitive proof the mother would surely die if she chooses to try and carry. I was told three times, that if I tried to carry to term, I would die and three times I almost did, but abortion was not an option to me. My first two were results of failed protection....used not only the pill, but rubber as well. Yes, I knew the risk I was taking....but the kids didn't ask to come into this world and I felt it wasn't my place to make that decision for them. I'm glad I didn't take that option. Anyone who says a fetus ain't human and doesn't feel...your dead wrong! They do feel. Have you ever seen what a fetus does when the mom cries..or is hurt...I have....it reacts. If that deosn't make it human..what does? From the day of conception, while it may not look like a human, it is a living, breathing life. While I realize there are way too many children in the system, and far more will be placed, it's much better than their little life being taken away without a chance to defend themselves. I honestly wish I could take these children in the system and care for them...and I have tried, but was turned down with the excuse of not having the means to provide for them. There are so many people in the world who want and are willing to takes these kids...not just babies, but olders as well, but are turned down for what the system calls inadiquate means of support, or they are the wrong color and a number of other stupid reason. I say give these people a chance and the systems would realize that there would be a significant drop in the system children. I can understand a woman being raped not wanting the child, for it would be a reminder of what happened.....but not to abort it for that reason. Carry the child and place it up for adoption and then go on with your life. And who knows....that mother may decide after carrying and birthing, that she really wants the child. If she aborts it simply because of being raped and scared of the reminder...she'll never know for sure if she could actually learn to love the child, therefore missing out on the creators greatest gift. And let's not forget the fathers of these children. It's not the childs fault the relationship between mom and dad goes sour....but to deny the father his right to his child because mommy doesn't want to carry is wrong. Carry the child, birth it and hand it over to daddy. I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there willing to compensate the mom for carrying and birthing if it meant them keeping their kids. Think about this....how do you think you would feel if your mom aborted you simply because she didn't want to deal with you. With that said.......................... sits back and waits for the fire

pinksugarsub -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 2:44:59 PM)
i'm just popping in to address a topic raised: that P/pl would not wait so long to adopt if they did not insist on adopting a newborn. i don't really see what this has to do with Reproductive Rights, but ok. Many P/pl want newborns and not older children because so many older children in foster care have serious problems thanks to abuse, neglect, failure to bond, etc. Few P/pl are really equipped to deal with a special needs child and even fewer will volunteer to cope with such a child who is not their own. i guess my point is that the argument that children are better off if moms carry them to term and then abuse, neglect or dump them doesn't hold a lot of water for me. i have dealt with just such damage and it nearly drove me to murder.

Zensee -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 4:00:56 PM)
Hutch, calling others on this forum MURDERERS!!! is itself flaming, so quit playing the victim and trying to deflect responsibility for holding and expressing your opinions. Having a strong opinion does not make it a fact. You want to use inflated rhetoric, accept the consequences of your words, don't presuppose that any substantive response to your position is a personal attack. Your assertion that unwanted babies have families cuing up to take them is inaccurate and wishful. Even if it were true it does not argue forcing a woman to carry a fetus to term. The father's contribution is measured in CCs and is even less reason to compel a woman to carry a fetus than an army of willing adoptive parents. Women are not baby machines in service to the state, childless couples, careless men or a meddlesome church. This is an issue of conflicting rights. While a fetus is a living thing so is the mother. A fetus is a potential person but the mother already is a person and has the sovereign right to determine what happens to and within her body. The right of the woman to control her body trumps the right of a fetus to use that body against her will. Abortion is not a light matter nor should it be used as a regular form of birth control. But ultimately it is the business of the mother and no one else. To give that control over to another is not acceptable in my opinion. Z.

curiousexplorer -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 4:34:36 PM)
"I don't care how anyone looks at it.......ABORTION IS MURDER! " Ever hear of spontanious abortion? By your prejudice most women would be murderers. "Have any of you actually seen an aborted fetus? I have..it's NOT a pretty sight. " Giving birth is not a pretty sight either. Open heart surgery is not a pretty sight. Many things are not a pretty sight. Have you seen abandoned and unwanted kids? A newborn dying from exposure or starvation is not a pretty sight either. An unwanted child beaten for being alive is not pretty. A child sold for slavery, prostitution or body parts is not pretty. Depending on the country and individuals, foster care or orphanages are often not pretty. So if you are worried about what is pretty, find a pretty alternative. "From the day of conception, while it may not look like a human, it is a living, breathing life. " A living breathing life from the day of conception? Biology doesn't play a big part in your beliefs does it? "There are so many people in the world who want and are willing to takes these kids...not just babies, but olders as well, but are turned down for what the system calls inadiquate means of support" First of all, adequate means of support is very important. Not just financially but mentally as well. I'm sure there are many people who want to help all the poor innocent babies, but who could not handle caring for just a few of them. Just like pets, kids and christmas. Also if there were so many people who wanted to take care of kids, why are there so many kids not being cared for? Even Angelina and Madonna had to be trendy and grab kids from overseas. I'm sure they could have found local kids to match their rainbow dreams, but that wouldn't have been the same. "I can understand a woman being raped not wanting the child, for it would be a reminder of what happened.....but not to abort it for that reason. Carry the child and place it up for adoption and then go on with your life. " Has this happened to you? If not I would suggest waiting until you are in that unfortunate position. By suggesting women carry the child you are suggesting they relive the rape every day for nine months, and if they haven't had a child before, to allow the rapist to alter their body in an intimate way. I"m sure more than a few rapists would get pleasure from forcing that experience onto their victims. "And let's not forget the fathers of these children. It's not the childs fault the relationship between mom and dad goes sour....but to deny the father his right to his child because mommy doesn't want to carry is wrong. Carry the child, birth it and hand it over to daddy. " Making that comment immediately after the rape comments makes it look like you are advocting fathers rights for rapists? I hope (I can only hope as it's never a good idea to underestimate people) you are not and it was just lack of thought which put these two points together? "Think about this....how do you think you would feel if your mom aborted you simply because she didn't want to deal with you. " Wouldn't think about it at all. One needs to exist to think, and even then it's no guarantee.

HutchGarahl -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 4:34:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee Hutch, calling others on this forum MURDERERS!!! is itself flaming, WHOA....BACK OFF BUB! Not once did I call anyone here a murderer. I said abortion is murder and I stand by MY OPINION...you can like it or not, agree or disagree, I could care less. But read better next time you accuse someone of something.

curiousexplorer -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 4:37:40 PM)
"WHOA....BACK OFF BUB! Not once did I call anyone here a murderer. I said abortion is murder " Which means you would have to consider the mother and medical staff murderers. If abortion is murder, then those involved are murderers. If you don't want to call women and medical staff murderers, don't call what they do murder. It's a pretty simple concept.

mnottertail -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 4:42:08 PM)
Well, it ain't no big thang, saddam knicks a 100thou and we go to the mattresses, Mengistu does a couple more than that and we shrug. Let's make it a 5 dollar fine and get back to fuckin, people. Oliver Wendell Holmes

LadyPact -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 4:44:38 PM)
Personally, I say that as soon as men can carry a full term pregnancy, they can have a say on abortion.

HutchGarahl -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 5:03:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curiousexplorer "WHOA....BACK OFF BUB! Not once did I call anyone here a murderer. I said abortion is murder " Which means you would have to consider the mother and medical staff murderers. In my opinion...yes, and I wouldn't hesitate to say such either..be it someone here or not. But, I didn't see anyone here claim to have had an abortion, I didn't read every post. If abortion is murder, then those involved are murderers. If you don't want to call women and medical staff murderers, don't call what they do murder. It's a pretty simple concept.

HutchGarahl -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 5:08:25 PM)
Ok...I did go back and read every post.........There are two who say they did have an abortion....Sorry ladies....if you decided to dislike me now for my opinion...that's your decision...but I stand by my opinion.

mnottertail -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 5:12:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Personally, I say that as soon as men can carry a full term pregnancy, they can have a say on abortion. I might be willing to do that, what you weigh unloaded as it were? Ron

Sinergy -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 5:15:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl I don't care how anyone looks at it....... Considering the rest of the post, I find this statement difficult to believe. Sinergy

curiousexplorer -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 5:21:31 PM)
""WHOA....BACK OFF BUB! Not once did I call anyone here a murderer. I said abortion is murder " Which means you would have to consider the mother and medical staff murderers. In my opinion...yes, and I wouldn't hesitate to say such either..be it someone here or not. But, I didn't see anyone here claim to have had an abortion, I didn't read every post. " But there is a chance at least one person in an abotion thread has been involved in an abortion, either as the woman, man or medical staff. So it is likely you called at least one person here a murderer. "Ok...I did go back and read every post.........There are two who say they did have an abortion....Sorry ladies....if you decided to dislike me now for my opinion...that's your decision...but I stand by my opinion. " So you were wrong, you called at least two people murderers. And that's only the ones you are sure of. While you are free to have opinions, one has to wonder if you've given those opinions as much thought as your claim you didn't call anyone here a murderer?

pinksugarsub -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 5:24:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl Ok...I did go back and read every post.........There are two who say they did have an abortion....Sorry ladies....if you decided to dislike me now for my opinion...that's your decision...but I stand by my opinion. Yanno Hutch, i stand by my opinion(s) on this thread just as You stand by Yours. i daresay most P/pl who replied stand by T/their opinions. Standing by O/one's opinion is a common trait. As for disliking You, i knew when i posted the Op there would be disagreement. i dun know You well enough to say whether i dislike You or not; i find You to be a bit defensive and (of course) wrong-headed on some issues, but hey, those are minor complaints. For all i know Yr one helluva Guy, fun at parties, smart as a whip, etc. And in point of fact, some of the Men who replied (farglebargle comes to mind) hold a different opinion than You do, while some of the "Ladies" agree with You. i have also read this thread and i failed to note where any particular member said S/she had had an abortion H/herself. However if this did happen, the W/women revealed an extremely personal and probably very painful point in T/their lives for the sake of advancing the debate. Generally such P/pl get thanked for T/their disclosures.

HutchGarahl -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 5:24:31 PM)
Curious...there's a lot of things in this world that ain't a pretty sight. Yes, i've seen abandoned and unwanted kids...i've been to orphanges...I don't like what I saw. I've done things to help as best I could. I honestly wish things like orphanges, unwanted and abused children didn't exsist....but it does. That's still not a reason to abort a child. For all we know, one of those aborted kids just might be the one to change all this...but noone would ever know for sure because the abortion was taken. And i'm well aware how biology plays. True...finances are a major factor...kids need food, clothes, diapers and such...When I was turned down for becoming a foster/adoptive parent, it wasn't because of lack of money....hell, I was getting almost $1500.00 a month....the reason for turning me down....the money came from welfare. Sorry, but to me, that wasn't and still ain't a good reason to turn a good potential parent down. Yes....i've been raped...twice, fortunately enough I didn't get pregnate by either. But if I did, I would never even think of abortion. I do honestly feel for any women who gets raped and for the child should that happen. But I still feel it's not a reason for abortion. The woman can seek councling to help her through the proccess. And as I said....if she carried the child and birthed it...she may find that having the child may help her over come what happened and she can love it. She wouldn't know if she killed it. No....I wasn't advocated the right of a rapist, far from it. I was only speaking for the honest father.....sorry it came out that way.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 5:26:37 PM)
My entire problem with the whole debate over abortion is the unwillingness on both sides for compromise. I have never had any moral or ethical problem with a woman having an abortion in the first-trimester. I do have a major problem with late-term abortions. I do not want women risking their lives in back alley abortion clincs, so I don't want it outlawed completely. But I consider aborting a fetus that could survive outside of the womb to be infanticide. So why is it that groups like Planned Parenthood scream that abortion rights are being eroded away by a ban on late-term abortions? On that note, why do the Pro-Life groups say that Ru-486 and the morning after pill are the same as having an abortion and will lead to more abortions? I don't see the logic in either side. Both sides are fanatical and I think the majority of people fall in the middle on this argument. There is room for compromise on the issue of abortion. The slippery slope argument that compromise will lead to more restrictions or allowances with abortions is ridiculous. Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies, and I am always amazed that people use them or are drawn in by them.

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