RE: Reproductive Rights

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juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 9:41:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: soultoshare haven't read the rest of the postings yet, but it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to "hear" or "see" a baby's heartbeat in any situation three days after conception....it is still nothing more than splitting, reproducing cells, I believe it's called a gamete or zygote....don't remember my biology that well, however, if your heard a heartbeat on a sonogram, it was your own. Gametes are female eggs before fertilization Zygote is what happens upon fertilization before cell division Embryo is the term you are looking for

juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 9:50:11 AM)
I wanted to add, quote: First heartbeats begin - If you have an early ultrasound you may not be able to recognize this tiny being as a baby, but there is no mistaking what it feels like seeing your child's heartbeat on that screen. That rhythmic beat is echoed in your own heart The heartbeat can be heard by week 12 though, perhaps it was three months and not three days that she was thinking.

CrimsonMoan -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 9:58:43 AM)
Veering of course just a bit Julia its nice to see someone else who has done their BIBLE history. Went to catholic school from k-5th grade half wway so I know the retoric by heart. There are ALOT of interesting things in there but yes the breath of life bit is something they don't like hearing and usually come back with the "the lord knew thee in thy mother's womb" line. I also agree with a previous comment that if they are gonna use the bible for oen thing they might as well use it for all. Of course that means the entire pagan/metaphysical community would be wiped out(thou shalt not suffer a witch to live) which by the way was changed centuries back. It was originally poisoner. my other fave is to toss around that masturbation is only a sin if you are a man according to the bible. Cuz females don't produce seed(sperm)

juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 10:01:13 AM)
quote: There are ALOT of interesting things in there but yes the breath of life bit is something they don't like hearing and usually come back with the "the lord knew thee in thy mother's womb" line It is funny to me that a book of poems (Psalms) is taken as literal, yet the rest of the Bible is supposed to be metaphorical in regards to laws and to "the breath of life". Just gotta love the logic

CrimsonMoan -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 10:14:15 AM)
well we are talking about a book that has been changed translated RE translated since its inception(sp). This is the one thing though the bible says ALOT of things but above all else we have free will. We can chose to live our lives how we wish. Thats what Pro-Lifers forget when they try and force their views on others. Then again there are those who respect the choices of others. Gulliani for instance. Catholic but is standing firm on the abortion platform.

BoiJen -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 10:31:09 AM)
Anybody seen the Kathy and Mo show: Parallel Lives? It's playing on HBO until June sometime. There's a part in the play where they're "confessing" their sins for the last 14 years. "I lied...I lied a LOT." "I had sex." "I had an abortion." "I had sex with a married man. I had sex with a woman. I had sex with a married woman." Kathy Najimi gets to go into this monolouge on the abortion thing. as an individual who had one. she says things like.."I felt bad. No...no I didn't. Because if I felt bad that would make me guilty...that would make those people out there right. Because I can't feel bad without feeling guilty. And I'm not guilty of anything. I mean felt like should feel bad. But no...I don't feel bad." It's not my place to say if it's right or wrong for anyone else. I can't even say if it's right or wrong for me. I haven't been in that situation. Any number of things could happen to cause the need for an abortion. A newly wed couple uses birth control and a condom and it all fails. She forgot her pill one day...she keeps using it. The dr says your child is likely to have x number of birth defects and the husband says I can't deal with a special needs child. The mother says I can't provide for a special needs child in a partnership...much less single. She has the abortion. who am I to them? And why should I have anything to say about? What's my right there? A poor woman uses the condom. Gets pregnant and doesn't know until after she falls at work a couple of times and she hemorages and is sent to the hospital. The fetus is still alive. But the mother is likely to die. Who am I to her? A teenage girl is raped by a family member and turns up pregnant but can't say that to anyone because she won't "break up" her family. Who am I in that situation to make a judgement? I get worried about "father's rights" sometimes...but them I remember they're not the one's takin on the physical risks and labor of having a child. So they don't really get a say. If they want a child then they need to go have one with someone who wants to help them...one way or another. But I won't have my body taken hostage under any circumstances. I don't care if it's for fetus, I don't care if it's for medical research. It's my body. It's the only thing I have certain and unltimate right to. And I will not jepordize that. I don't expect any woman to.

HutchGarahl -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 11:20:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Most of your post was an attack at people who support what you consider anathema. My comment was that the statement "I dont care what other people think" was not supported by the rest of your post. You seem to care a great deal what other people think. Nothing wrong with caring, but I suggest you dont preface your comments with "I dont care." Ah...ok, Yea your right. I do agree that times the way I word things can be confusing and somewhat mixed. Sorry about that. I told my children that while I support a woman's right to choose, I abhor waste. I said if they came to me and told me they were expecting an unwanted child that I would support whatever they chose to do 100%. Abortion? I will drive them to and pay for the most competent doctor to perform the procedure. Keep the child. Live with me and raise the kid in a happy and loving home. Or live somewhere else and I am there to make sure things work out. The point I am trying to make is that her decision to bear a child is her decision, not mine. The decision to have children is a decision I made. They have my undying support and love and all that other parental twaddle until the day I leave this place. This is unconditional, they never signed a contract to love and support me. I believe I signed a contract to love and support them regardless when I made the decision to have children. I will not ever support a law designed to take my child's decision making power away from her. I have spent most of her life telling people "dude(ette), dont even bother going up against that one. You wont win, and you will end up looking stupid." I have two children, one a son, and while I support him the way I support her, I do understand that the primary burden will be on the mother of his child, not on my son. What is amusing is that my daughter and I never fight about anything. That's cool. Me and my kids argue a lot, specially my oldest. The problem I have with the late term abortion law is that the way it is written, if a woman slips on ice and her fetus aborts past the point where it is considered a viable life, that woman could be brought up on manslaughter charges. That is just idiotic in my opinion. The comment "yeah, but it would never happen" is equally idiotic. A rule I have learned in spades as a customer support engineer is to never attempt to outsmart an idiot. That's just stupid. I don't see how a woman can be held responsible for murder in a case like that. If it was accidentle, it's not like she asked to slip and her baby get killed by it. My general approach to things is that I tend to not think my opinion about their life is not overly relevant. I dont think my opinion about their behavior is relevant since I am not necessarily willing to pay to support it. I support legalization of many drugs because I hate paying to incarcerate stoner dudes. What the hell do I care of somebody wants to relate to barnacles under the pier after doing bong loads. Same here. I've never heard of anyone dying from smoking pot. I've always said if they legalized it, then they wouldn't have so many people breaking the law. I am opposed to anti-abortion laws, in general, because SOMEBODY has to pay for the kids born in horrible situations. I have yet to see many anti-abortionists adopting children born in horrible poverty and hell. I am opposed to shooting Iraqis because I am forced to pay for Anencephalyboy's imperial hubris. I hope this clarifies my response. Enjoy your evening Sinergy Thank you Syn, it does help. quote: In the case of rape it is somehow ok to murder the "baby". If you really believe that it is murder, then it is murder no matter how that "life" came to be Good point. But I don't recall saying it was ok to abort in a rape case either. The only time I might feel it right is if the moms life would be in danger. Everyone has brought up very valid points. I guess my biggest issue is how I feel towards life itself. I value life...and to me, a baby is the greatest gift bestowed by the creator and never felt it was mans place to take it away. While I still feel abortion is wrong, I think maybe it's time I do rethink it in certain aspects.

BoiJen -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 1:09:28 PM)
Guess I have the issue of calling a fetus a baby. It's not. It's a fetus from eight weeks into the pregnancy until birth. After birth, it's a baby. And that's why it isn't murder.

BoiJen -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 1:19:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shyinini I am considering a job change.... I looked into Planned Parenthood. As I was reflecting on that choice and if I should even explore it... KNOWING my own views on this issue ..... I wondered, what sort of difference, if any, could I possibly make in the lives of anyone involved on either side of this issue. I wanna put out there that PP doesn't just do "abortion consultation," they do birth planning for those trying to have children, they do counseling for those who are suffering from post partem depression, they help find services for those who are hoping to opt for adoption, and they help find contraceptives that suit the individual's needs. It's not just about the aboriton issue. They're a great group to get involved with no matter what side you're on in this.

BoiJen -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 1:36:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl From the day of conception, while it may not look like a human, it is a living, breathing life. A fetus doesn't breath until it's been born. The O2 circulated through the body is done through blood. And at the point of conception it's a bundle of cells that are smaller than a pin point. Organs aren't even formed. There is no heart beat because there is no heart. I was raised catholic but even my tiny bit of medical knowledge tells me this is not a truth in the physical world. While I realize there are way too many children in the system, and far more will be placed, it's much better than their little life being taken away without a chance to defend themselves. I was in the system. And if you'd have asked me then I'da said I'da prefered my mother had an abortion. I still feel that way because of that time in my life. My parents weren't responsible and didn't know how to take care of themselves much less a child. Are you seriously telling me it's btter that a breathing independant being suffer through countless torments and horros just so that someone can say that they didn't have an abortion? How is that fair in any sense to anyone involved? Women are not called baby factories for a reason. We're beings to ourselves before we are to anyone else. That includes a fetus. I honestly wish I could take these children in the system and care for them...and I have tried, but was turned down with the excuse of not having the means to provide for them. There are so many people in the world who want and are willing to takes these kids...not just babies, but olders as well, but are turned down for what the system calls inadiquate means of support, or they are the wrong color and a number of other stupid reason. I say give these people a chance and the systems would realize that there would be a significant drop in the system children. Okay so you can adopt anyone you want...you just don't have to be qualified to take care of them or provide them with any decent means of living? Sorry quality of life has something to do with wanting to be alive. That's why people kill themselves. Because life is not the quality of what they wish it or need it to be in one ay or fashion. I can understand a woman being raped not wanting the child, It's NOT about NOT wanting a child. It's about having right to our own bodies. It's about not paying the price for someone else's "sins." for it would be a reminder of what happened.....but not to abort it for that reason. Carry the child and place it up for adoption and then go on with your life. And who knows....that mother may decide after carrying and birthing, that she really wants the child. If she aborts it simply because of being raped and scared of the reminder...she'll never know for sure if she could actually learn to love the child, therefore missing out on the creators greatest gift. And let's not forget the fathers of these children. It's not the childs fault the relationship between mom and dad goes sour....but to deny the father his right to his child because mommy doesn't want to carry is wrong. Carry the child, birth it and hand it over to daddy. I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there willing to compensate the mom for carrying and birthing if it meant them keeping their kids. If a man wants a child and is man enough to take care of that child can't they be man enough not to force having a child on a woman who doesn't want one? Think about this....how do you think you would feel if your mom aborted you simply because she didn't want to deal with you. I already stated how I feel on that. Though there are people in my life who wouldn't be too happy to hear it, I still mean it. Again, it aint about not wanting to deal with a child. It's about the woman involved. With that said.......................... sits back and waits for the fire I'm not posting flame. I'm saying take a look at what some facts are and what some medical faces of this are. I'm saying abortion isn't about a possible child. It's about the woman who's choosing it or not choosing it.

Bella1965 -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 2:01:52 PM)
G'afteroon all: (Fast Reply) I'm hard core Pro-Choice. There are no grey areas about this to me. Someone tries to tell me what to do with my body and they're facing a painful gutting by a rusty spoon. End of story, no discussion, no debate. No one has the right to tell any woman what to do with her body. Minors on the other hand, are not capable of governing their own lives. They have not sufficiently developed the social skills, mental aptitude or capacity to make live altering decisions for themselves. Even so, I do believe they should have the availability to request and receive abortions if they so choose. Not as a means of contraception, but to safeguard their future from ruinous harm by entering into a state that may hamper their education and livelihoods. I won't even touch the morality issues. They're too heated a subject and this thread is flame worthy already. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

farglebargle -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 3:41:22 PM)
quote: I'm hard core Pro-Choice. There are no grey areas about this to me. Someone tries to tell me what to do with my body and they're facing a painful gutting by a rusty spoon. End of story, no discussion, no debate. No one has the right to tell any woman what to do with her body. Now THAT is how EVERY FREEDOM AND LIBERTY LOVING PERSON SHOULD THINK!

Sinergy -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 3:53:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle If Old Testament G-d had a problem with ANYTHING, you KNOW there would be much smiting. A relevant quote from Ghostbusters " (Stantz) ... or you can accept the fact that this city is heading for a disaster of really Biblical proportions. MAYOR What do you mean "Biblical?" VENKMAN Old Testament, Mr. Mayor. "Wrath of God"-type stuff. The seas could boil, fire and brimstone falling from the sky ... STANTZ (chimes in) ... forty years of darkness, earthquakes, mass hysteria, human sacrifice ... " You are 100% correct, farglebargle. Sinergy

curiousexplorer -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 5:10:08 PM)
"Curious...there's a lot of things in this world that ain't a pretty sight. Yes, i've seen abandoned and unwanted kids...i've been to orphanges...I don't like what I saw." You don't like what you saw, yet you want to add to it? And all for the sake of your personal feelings. "I honestly wish things like orphanges, unwanted and abused children didn't exsist....but it does. That's still not a reason to abort a child. For all we know, one of those aborted kids just might be the one to change all this...but noone would ever know for sure because the abortion was taken. " Wishing doesn't change anything, and advocating adding to the problem won't change it either. And as much as an aborted foetus could be some fantasy saviour, it could also be the next Hitler, so that arguement is just as much for abortion as against it. "And i'm well aware how biology plays." No, you are not. Anyone who claims a foetus is living and breathing from the time of conception does not have even the most basic biological knowledge. "hell, I was getting almost $1500.00 a month....the reason for turning me down....the money came from welfare. Sorry, but to me, that wasn't and still ain't a good reason to turn a good potential parent down. " Sounds like a pretty good reason. Welfare is someone else looking after you, so there is a chance that someone who cannot care for themselves would have problems caring for another. You might not like it, it might not apply to you the individual, but there is sound reasoning behind such a decision. "Yes....i've been raped...twice, fortunately enough I didn't get pregnate by either. But if I did, I would never even think of abortion. " You really don't know unless/untill it happens. Of course with your current views you will say this, but you could feel different if you found yourself in that situation. Or worse, a person who couldn't bring themselves to abort even if they had troubles handling the situation might end up resenting their decision and taking it out on the kid they forced themselves to have? Post #101 Hutch, The bit you highlighted wasn't the main point, this was; "While you are free to have opinions, one has to wonder if you've given those opinions as much thought as your claim you didn't call anyone here a murderer?" "I will say this ..... While I do have my opinion....it's not my place to punish anyone for what they decide....when it's time for them to meet their maker, only then will it be decided wether what they chose to do was actually the right thing and only then will they meet with punishment for their decision or be met with open arms. " I'm curious as to which maker you are referring to? The bible has no problems with murdering women and children, so it would be hard to imagine that mythology having a problem with abortion. "Just gotta love the logic" It's a religion, logic has no place in it. Religions are built from fear and ignorance, not logic and understanding. "That's just stupid. I don't see how a woman can be held responsible for murder in a case like that. If it was accidentle, it's not like she asked to slip and her baby get killed by it. " If anti abortionists had their way, "slipping" and other accidents (like accidental poisoning) would be the only option. And you can bet there are enough anti abortionists short of a deck who would prosecute such action in case it was a hidden abortion. "Everyone has brought up very valid points. I guess my biggest issue is how I feel towards life itself. I value life...and to me, a baby is the greatest gift bestowed by the creator and never felt it was mans place to take it away. While I still feel abortion is wrong, I think maybe it's time I do rethink it in certain aspects. " Then lets have a look at life shall we? Without modern medicine the most likely outcome for a foetus was death. The old line of go forth and multiply made sense in primitive societies where people would have many kids knowing they would lose most by age 5. Also unusual births could result in killing the baby out of superstition. And lets not forget that animals (including people) simply abandon offspring when unable or unwilling to care for them. We have progressed beyond having kids simply because we are biologically capable, and we have progressed beyond having to give birth to every possible pregnancy to sustain the population. We should only be giving birth to those foetuses we can care for and raise. "Minors on the other hand, are not capable of governing their own lives. They have not sufficiently developed the social skills, mental aptitude or capacity to make live altering decisions for themselves. Even so, I do believe they should have the availability to request and receive abortions if they so choose." As minors with all the issues you've highlighted, the choice to abort should be encouraged and guilt trippers should be keep well away so their prejudice doesn't negatively effect the minors recovery.

Sinergy -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 5:22:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy The problem I have with the late term abortion law is that the way it is written, if a woman slips on ice and her fetus aborts past the point where it is considered a viable life, that woman could be brought up on manslaughter charges. That is just idiotic in my opinion. The comment "yeah, but it would never happen" is equally idiotic. A rule I have learned in spades as a customer support engineer is to never attempt to outsmart an idiot. That's just stupid. I don't see how a woman can be held responsible for murder in a case like that. If it was accidentle, it's not like she asked to slip and her baby get killed by it. I agree with you, but the religious zealots who crafted the bill and tried to shove it through Congress wrote it that way. It is a poorly worded and written law which is easily abused in a way that the Roe V. Wade precedent isnt. Roe v. Wade simply says the Government cannot interfere in a woman seeking medical care. Anti-abortionists generally dont strike me as a bunch of people who think things through to their logical conclusion. Sinergy

juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 7:40:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen quote: ORIGINAL: shyinini I am considering a job change.... I looked into Planned Parenthood. As I was reflecting on that choice and if I should even explore it... KNOWING my own views on this issue ..... I wondered, what sort of difference, if any, could I possibly make in the lives of anyone involved on either side of this issue. I wanna put out there that PP doesn't just do "abortion consultation," they do birth planning for those trying to have children, they do counseling for those who are suffering from post partem depression, they help find services for those who are hoping to opt for adoption, and they help find contraceptives that suit the individual's needs. It's not just about the aboriton issue. They're a great group to get involved with no matter what side you're on in this. I wonder how many women have had their lives saved by planned parenthood. Think about it this way... How many women would have went to a back alley hack and suffered complications and even death to get an abortion... they perform safe abortions. In fact having an abortion is physically safer than carrying a child to term.... And then there are all the unwanted pregnancies that were prevented... how many abortions were prevented because of planned parenthood? And then there is spacing children by planning them, which planned parenthood helps women do.. how many kids were born healthier and to term because their mother waited between pregnancies because she had access to birth control... How many mothers got pregnancy tests quicker and cheaper and doctor referrals from planned parenthood so that they knew they were pregnant and they sought medical care sooner preventing complications to the pregnancy? Every woman that planned parenthood provides services to is a potential life (or lives) saved... pretty damned important work that they do

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 7:57:00 PM)
As I said earlier, I have no problem with abortion during the first trimester. However I am a little perplexed when someone says that the law should not place restrictions on what someone can do to their own body. By that logic, I should be able to pour gasoline all over myself and set myself on fire if I feel the need to. We as a society place all kinds of restrictions on what a person can and can not do to their own body. We regulate what drugs we are allowed to take. We regulate what is and is not allowed to be put into our food. We do not allow people to legally commit suicide. We tell people they have to wear a seatbelt or a helmet when operating a vehicle; regardless of the fact that it your body that will be injured in a crash. Abortion is a medical procedure, and the practice of medicine is heavily regulated. If I decide I want a sex change operation, I would have to undergo psychological counseling before being allowed to have the operation. What exactly is the difference with requiring that doctors provide information on alternatives and giving counseling before an abortion? What is wrong with putting a limit on the time frame in which an abortion is allowed?

LightHeartedMaam -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 9:17:49 PM)
I believe every life has a purpose. Some are here to become a grown human being. Some are here to teach a lesson by the mere brevity of their existence. How arrogant of us to think we know what their purpose is.

juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/19/2007 9:18:22 PM)
quote: What is wrong with putting a limit on the time frame in which an abortion is allowed? Because sometimes people do not know that the child has inherited Downs Syndrome or cystic fibrosis in the first trimester. Sometimes health complications for the mother happen after the first trimester. And as far as regulating what people do with their own bodies, well I am against all regulations against keeping people from doing what they like with their own bodies. I am really for keeping the government completely out of my decisions regarding what happens within my own skin. I do not mind them telling me where I can do something (IE not smoke inside public buildings, not to drink and drive, etc) but telling me I cannot do it at all, well I am a freedom lover... and yes, if people want to kill themselves the law really does not stop them.

farglebargle -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/20/2007 12:55:01 AM)
quote: By that logic, I should be able to pour gasoline all over myself and set myself on fire if I feel the need to. Knock yourself out. Practice FIRE SAFETY, and don't let it spread out of control is all I ask. You OWN your self. ANYONE who claims to believe in FREEDOM AND LIBERTY must respect YOUR ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER YOU CHOSE TO DO WITH YOUR OWN PROPERTY.

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