RE: Reproductive Rights (Full Version)

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CrimsonMoan -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/20/2007 7:58:12 PM)

*hands sinergy a plat of powderd toast* ^_^ i'm in a happy mood tonight for once.




HutchGarahl -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/20/2007 8:02:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

I am sorry but your life is your own and if you TRULY wish to check out then that is your right to do so. The selfish peple are those who prolong their loved ones pain rather than accepting things and letting them go.



In my experience, which is limited to only a handful, those who want to keep the terminally ill alive do so for their own reasons, not for the best interest of the afflicted.

All things that have a beginning, have an end.  Not allowing somebody to die with dignity, in the style of their own choosing, does not, in my opinion, show respect to that person's humanity.

Sinergy


These statements made me think about something. Now I know this is totally off subject, but bare with me for a minute...cause withing my thinking....it seems to me these can be somewhat related.
 
My niece, at a tender age of maybe 10 at the most, was struck but a car...immediately thrown into a coma. I knew as soon as I reached her hospital bedside, she was gone. Yet...we held a constant vigil by her for a little over two weeks. I spent quite a bit of time convincing her mom she was gone and she needed to let her go. To me, I was thinking she wanted to keep her hooked to machines for her...not her little girl. True everyone would miss her...but even if she did live, came out of her coma....there was too much of a chance she would be a total vegetable. That's would be no life for anyone.
 
Thinking on that last line...I started thinking about all the children, born out of unwanted pregnacies...born into abuse and all that and I kept hearing myself say that same sentence over and over. That's no kind of life for anyone.
 
I still value life, don't get me wrong....but I have been thinking so much about this discussion and all the points you all have made....maybe abortion ain't such a bad thing in some cases. While I feel for the child...your right...I have to think about mom as well.
 
Also...if the child was born, yet not wanted...I sure as hell wouldn't want to see it thrown into abuse. So maybe it's saving a bad thing from happening, maybe it's not. Only when the woman meets with her creator will she know for sure if she did the right thing......and even then...I believe there's room for forgiveness.
 
To the ladies here who have actually had to make this choice....I ask your forgiveness for being so bullheaded about this. I know it wasn't an easy decision, and not one taken lightly at all.




Sinergy -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/20/2007 8:05:52 PM)

 
I was touched by your post, HutchGarahl.

Enjoy your evening,

Sinergy




CrimsonMoan -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/20/2007 8:18:43 PM)

Hutch I have to say i am impressed with you how you have grown in your thinking. its not often i chnge my opinions of people, but you have earned it. Things are so black and white to you anymore are they?




DomKen -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/20/2007 9:18:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HutchGarahl
I still value life, don't get me wrong....but I have been thinking so much about this discussion and all the points you all have made....maybe abortion ain't such a bad thing in some cases. While I feel for the child...your right...I have to think about mom as well.

I think most everyone values life. I don't know anyone who encourages casual use of abortion as birth control.

I am quite impressed by your willingness to examine your beliefs. I am also so very sorry about your niece.




slaverosebeauty -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/20/2007 9:34:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

To begin: do Y/you think the present U.S. Supreme Court will overturn Roe v. Wade? In the current session? (In America; ashamed to say i dun even know what rights women have in other countries.)



Abortion is murder. Period. If you don't want to have a child, then use birthcontrol ALL the time or get your tubes tied/a vasectiomy. No excuses, condoms are easily avaliable, by mail-order, at almost every store, planned parenthood, your friends, if that's not 'cool' then just don't have sex. WOW. New idea, abstinence.

Thier is NO justification for murdering a child, that is what an abortion is, murder. It stops a beating heart, therefor it is murder. I pray every day for Roe v.Wade to be overturned, when that happens, I want it to be made a felony, just like any other murder or henius crime, its torture and murder, simple as that.

Those who DO support this murder, have you ever SEEN an abortion preformed? The baby MOVES, it reacts to pain, its alive and responsive. The baby get sucked out with a vaccum like device, its head gets crushed, and all the while, its moving and ALIVE. 

I almost lost my son 3 times while I was pregnant with him [excessive stress almost caused 3 miscarriages], then I almost died bringing him into this world, I fought tooth and nail to keep him; so someone VOLUNTARLY killing a child, thats a henious crime. I do understand that argument for rape victums, I am a 3 time rape survior, I lost my daughters at 3 months, that were concieved by a rape; I love my body, so I loved them. If you love yourself, then you love your child; if you can't love a child you carry, then you don't know love or are incapable of it [love].




Sinergy -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/20/2007 9:53:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

To begin: do Y/you think the present U.S. Supreme Court will overturn Roe v. Wade? In the current session? (In America; ashamed to say i dun even know what rights women have in other countries.)



Abortion is murder. Period. If you don't want to have a child, then use birthcontrol ALL the time or get your tubes tied/a vasectiomy. No excuses, condoms are easily avaliable, by mail-order, at almost every store, planned parenthood, your friends, if that's not 'cool' then just don't have sex. WOW. New idea, abstinence.

Thier is NO justification for murdering a child, that is what an abortion is, murder. It stops a beating heart, therefor it is murder. I pray every day for Roe v.Wade to be overturned, when that happens, I want it to be made a felony, just like any other murder or henius crime, its torture and murder, simple as that.

Those who DO support this murder, have you ever SEEN an abortion preformed? The baby MOVES, it reacts to pain, its alive and responsive. The baby get sucked out with a vaccum like device, its head gets crushed, and all the while, its moving and ALIVE. 

I almost lost my son 3 times while I was pregnant with him [excessive stress almost caused 3 miscarriages], then I almost died bringing him into this world, I fought tooth and nail to keep him; so someone VOLUNTARLY killing a child, thats a henious crime. I do understand that argument for rape victums, I am a 3 time rape survior, I lost my daughters at 3 months, that were concieved by a rape; I love my body, so I loved them. If you love yourself, then you love your child; if you can't love a child you carry, then you don't know love or are incapable of it [love].


Perfect example of an anti-abortionist bringing the fervor and certainty of their emotional arguments to a discussion of the issue.

To her, there is no middle ground.  There is no discussion of the issue of things like "If we dont do an abortion we kill the mother" which is not actually murdering the mother because "Abortion is murder" in a way that killing an adult woman isnt. 

What we have here is a person that wants Gonzales in her uterus and thinks it would be a felony if they were not there when she gets a pap smear.

I am truly sorry for your loss, slaverosebeauty.

Peace out.

Sinergy




farglebargle -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 2:02:34 AM)

quote:


Perfect example of an anti-abortionist bringing the fervor and certainty of their emotional arguments to a discussion of the issue.


Well, to be fair, I have no middle ground either.

To tell a woman what she can, or cannot do with her body is to ENSLAVE HER.

No-one, and No-government has the authority to do that, not in ANY GOVERNMENT predicated on the Declaration of Independence.

You either LOVE FREEDOM AND LIBERTY or want to regulate what a woman may do with her body.

To me, Pro-Lifers are Dammed Commies.





chellekitty -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 2:14:28 AM)

ummm communists encourage abortion...

and my two cents on the subject...if the embryo/fetus is not alive....why do you have to kill it to get rid of the pregnancy??




farglebargle -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 2:20:10 AM)

Communism is the maximization of State control.

Some Communist states *may* encourage it, others *may* prohibit it. The point being, that a Communist State *believes* it owns The People, and therefore can tell The People what they may, or may not do.

The opposite is Anarchy. Neither extreme is really desirable, but there it is.

You either believe People are FREE, in which case, you cannot MORALLY tell them what they can, or cannot do with their own SELVES or their CREATIONS ( Property Rights are essential to Freedom and Liberty ), or you believe People are Slaves of the State.







chellekitty -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 2:36:04 AM)

their creations? so if you give birth to it or were other wise involved in its making, you can do whatever you want with it??

there is no black and white on any subject...yes we have rights...but those right end when they infringe on another's rights...i happen to believe that if you have to kill something its alive and therefore has its own rights...




farglebargle -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 3:16:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

their creations? so if you give birth to it or were other wise involved in its making, you can do whatever you want with it??


Pretty much. Who better to make decisions? IT'S CREATOR ( Mother ) or THE GOVERNMENT?

quote:



there is no black and white on any subject...yes we have rights...but those right end when they infringe on another's rights.


That's dumb. People take away other's rights all the time. Do you have a drivers' license? Well, don't you OWN your own car? If so, why do you need permission to USE YOUR OWN PROPERTY? And don't give me that "The State owns the Roads" crap. I'm *SURE* they could not produce the receipt.

But people give up their RIGHTS all the time.

You have ONLY those rights you defend. Until a child is able to kill in defense of their rights, then they are at the mercy of their mother, who generally is more than willing to kill in defense of her child.

Or not, as she sees fit. It's not my kin, so while I get to hold an OPINION, I don't get a vote in their family matters.

With this "extreme" attitude about considering children unable to defend themselves as essentially the livestock owned by the Mother, will there be tragedies?

Of course.

Will those tragedies be of lesser magnitude than the inevitable tragedies caused by the State ownership of these childern?

Let's ask the kids under the States foster care getting raped every night...

quote:



..i happen to believe that if you have to kill something its alive and therefore has its own rights...



You ever eat a steak?

What about the COWS' RIGHTS????

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE COWS?!




LadyEllen -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 3:52:13 AM)

If the religious argument against abortion relies on abortion being murder, then by reference to my Bible, it says "thou shalt not kill", and not "thou shalt not murder". Murder is a special term as I understand it, referring to the deliberate killing of a human being by another human being - whilst killing can be done to anything living by anything else capable of killing.

Abortion would therefore constitute an offence under the ten commandments, since it is killing. That said, given that every anti-abortion argument based on religion relies on abortion being a violation of the commandment against killing, one must also consider every means of sustenance of our beings in the same light; we kill plants to eat them, we kill animals to eat them, we kill bacteria and viruses to survive infections. Since the word in the Bible is kill, not murder, then we must regard all killing to be equally worthy of damnation, and also conclude that the Bible intends in this commandment to make no difference between the life of a single celled bacterium and the life of a human being, unborn or not. It is therefore rather odd to make a distinction in interpretation between forms of life in the context of a religious basis for argument, especially when the same God who issues the commandment also encourages and orders genocide in several instances.

The problem with reliance on the OT for such arguments, is that the OT does not belong to us and was never intended for us. Its context is entirely different to our times and our societies, having been written, inspired or not, for a small group of tribes living thousands of years ago in another part of the world, and to meet their peculiar requirements. Clearly in that context, according to the events later portrayed, killing was quite permissible as long as the victim was not part of one's ethnic group, (human or animal), or if part of one's ethnic group was permissible if the victim was condemned by his actions. Yet killing remains killing, whether it is another person, an animal or a criminal or whatever, and killing is a violation of the commandment. What this tells me, is that as evidence for anything, regardless of faith, the OT is totally confused and therefore not credible. It is a witness who changes his story upon cross examination.

All of this notwithstanding the possibility that those upon whom the political and legal consequences of a religiously inspired ban might fall, might not be in any way adherent to or interested in the religion from whence it springs. The issue then becomes, as Fargle has pointed out many times before, the freedom of choice of the woman as it is informed by her own being and self. Should a woman be adherent to that religion, then perhaps she might base her choice upon it in the same way as she has choice over her religion. Should a woman be adherent to another religion or none, then perhaps she might base her choice accordingly in the same way.

E




Level -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 3:55:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You ever eat a steak?

What about the COWS' RIGHTS????

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE COWS?!


I do, every time I put one on the grill.....




ennaozzie -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 4:21:18 AM)

Woman have abortions for many reasons - some because of health reasons, (risk to life) some have been raped and for one reason or another can not cope mentally with pregnancy on top of the rape, some are not aware enough to know what sex is or even that they are pregnant as in mentally they are not aware past the age of five even though their body might be 30, some are made aware that the child is severely brain damaged or damaged in another way which would require 24/7 care for life how ever long that maybe.
 
Generally speaking I am not against abortions when those sort of circumstances relate to your choice when making up your mind if you should have a abortion, how ever I have met people that take chances and do use the abortion clinic as a means of birth control which I don’t agree with, but as much as I am against abortion I am not all for the rights to make a choice taken away.
 
I have also read and seen on the news in the past some fanatic killing a doctor that works sometimes at an abortion clinic because this person that killed him was against abortion.
 
I am a great believer in freedom of speech but I am also a great believer in that no one has the right to kill a person because their job goes against someone’s belief.
 
That is like a priest killing a prostitute.
 
That is like one group of religious people fighting and killing others or each other.
 
Religions – forgiving, peaceful, love, the list goes on what they are meant to be – I look at the news and I don’t see that.
 
It all boils down to humans are their own worst enemy. 




chellekitty -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 4:21:37 AM)

ya know...i don't really want to argue the whole abortion issue because i am not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind...how about instead we help those who have taken on those abused children instead of letting them belive they would have been better off dead before they had a chance?  abortion is legal...does that stop those children from being abused?! what the heck difference is it going to make to the children in the system, don't even mention those that never got the chance to get away from their abusers because the system doesn't have enough resorces to investigate every child molestation/abuse case that comes thru their inbox (child protective services never came to my house when i was 4 and the rape kit that was done on me proved abuse)...but back to those children in the system...what difference is it going to make to them what someone does about abortion rights or a lack there of?

and as for the cows and chickens and pigs and sheep and goats and plants and anything else i may happen to eat, i thank it every time for giving up its life so that i may continue mine...they may not have had any choice in the matter...but if God didn't intend for us to eat cows, why did he make them so tasty....




KatyLied -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 4:50:10 AM)

quote:

I have also read and seen on the news in the past some fanatic killing a doctor that works sometimes at an abortion clinic because this person that killed him was against abortion.
 
I am a great believer in freedom of speech but I am also a great believer in that no one has the right to kill a person because their job goes against someone’s belief.


Yep, that behavior doesn't do much to provide support for the beliefs of anti-abortionists.  They want to have it both ways.  It doesn't work like that.  Well, in their minds it does, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense.




juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 6:42:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

their creations? so if you give birth to it or were other wise involved in its making, you can do whatever you want with it??

there is no black and white on any subject...yes we have rights...but those right end when they infringe on another's rights...i happen to believe that if you have to kill something its alive and therefore has its own rights...



In essense to force a person to carry another person to term that cannot survive on its own is wrong. If someone told you that you had to pick up a homeless person and breast feed them I bet you would not like that. Just because a person had sex and "created" another person does not mean that anyone can force them to use their body to nourish and feed and house that person.

I have a different view when the fetus is old enough to survive on its own, as in breath on its own.




juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 6:46:57 AM)

quote:

abortion is legal...does that stop those children from being abused?!


There was one Harvard study that said Roe V Wade indeed prevented a huge crime wave that sociologists had predicted because unwanted children had never been born. I read this in the Fresno Bee about 7 years ago




farglebargle -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/21/2007 8:11:14 AM)

quote:

but if God didn't intend for us to eat cows, why did he make them so tasty....


If G-d didn't intend for us to have the choice of an abortion, why did he create the possibility in the first place?





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