Reproductive Rights (Full Version)

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pinksugarsub -> Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 5:48:50 PM)

In a way, this is a test of O/our collective civility. i like the community of P/pl here, and have longed for an intelligent, non-screaming debate on reproductive rights for women.

To begin: do Y/you think the present U.S. Supreme Court will overturn Roe v. Wade? In the current session? (In America; ashamed to say i dun even know what rights women have in other countries.)




pinksugarsub -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 5:51:18 PM)

It is kinda silly to post the Op and not give my opinion.

1, i think every abortion is a loss. i think virtually every female who has one grieves.

2. i think every female should have the option of getting a safe, sane, and cheap abortion. The protestors outside clinics who harrass patients as they go in turn my stomach.

3. i think minor females should be able to get abortions just as easily as older females, without consent of their parents or a judge. IMO, P/pl who are willing to work in abortion clinics would help a minor female in distress or who had not thought it through.

4. The means of contraception available to some females, esp minor females, is a condomn, which only has an 80% success rate at preventing pregnancy. The full panoply of contraceptives and sex ed should be at least made available to minor females and older females on a sliding scale fee schdeule, without the need for a parent's consent.

5. i keep hearing how women use abortion as birth control, but i'm 53, and i've never met such a woman. i think this is in large part a myth made up by the anti-choice lobby.

6. Whoever scratched the "Keep Abortion Legal" sticker off my car's bumper should have an unwed mother to cope with; that really pissed me off. Keep Y/yr hands offa my property and Y/yr dayum laws offa my body.

7. i think Roe v. Wade may be eroded but never overturned; the women in America in the main support reproductive rights and i think there'd be a revolt.




juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 5:51:52 PM)

I think this belongs on another forum, like "off topic"




lighthearted -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 5:54:24 PM)

I predict flame war in 2.5 pages.




mstrjx -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 5:59:48 PM)

And now I know why I never visit 'off-topic'.

This is like a question about 'reality', no?  That's really not my bailiwick.  Don't read the newspaper, don't watch TV news, although I'm better informed than what I let on.

I didn't even know that the Supreme Court was debating this (or maybe they're not - you could be making this up).  Regardless, my answer is the same.

I hope not.

Jeff




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 6:13:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub
To begin: do Y/you think the present U.S. Supreme Court will overturn Roe v. Wade? In the current session? (In America; ashamed to say i dun even know what rights women have in other countries.)

No.




mythi -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 6:25:45 PM)

Well, as a person who was conceived and born illegitimately by a barely legal unwed teen mother and given up for adoption (aka allowed to live) prior to Roe v Wade...I have to say I feel fortunate to have landed on that side of the gavel. 




thetammyjo -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 7:22:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mythi

Well, as a person who was conceived and born illegitimately by a barely legal unwed teen mother and given up for adoption (aka allowed to live) prior to Roe v Wade...I have to say I feel fortunate to have landed on that side of the gavel.


On the opposite side, when my mother conceived me her doctor tried to talk her into having an abortion -- abortions have always been and will always be legal for women whose doctors want to provide them and who have the money to pay for them.

My mother decided no -- it was her choice. Hurray for her choice.

If a government can say "you can't have an abortion" it can just as easily say "you must have an abortion".

Don't think that would happen?

My mother-in-law studies Chinese society and she says it happens there all the time -- the wonderful "one child" policy after all. One of my professors studies Romania and she says that even under their very restrictive abortion laws decades ago the government often forced women to abort as well as carry to term.

It can be a slippery slope.




Lashra -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 7:27:40 PM)

I have to say what a woman does with her body is her own decision and no government, church or anyone else should tell her otherwise. Its her body, her conscience. If the Father wants the child then thats something the pair of them need to work out between themselves if possible. But forcing a woman to give birth to a child she doesn't want is a horrible thing.

~Lashra




MissOchistic -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 8:00:53 PM)

op, I think i love you. You share my exact views. i don't like abortion (and have, unfortunately, met one woman who thought it was a good contraception..."Oh, no worries, I'm pro-choice. Forget condoms." **rolls eyes**) but i think every woman has that choice. If that is taken away, why, what argument will the mothers have when their sixteen year old daughters rebel, if not the "I gave you life and I can take it away!"?
Also i agree that minors need the ability to recieve a safe and legal abortion without parental consent. There are too many teens having babies in the bathroom or having their boyfriend punch their stomache because they just can't tell their mother or father what's happening. It's a terrifying thing, and i believe even at 13, it's the girl's right to choose anyways.

However, i must also agree that you are in the wrong forum and this should be moved to Off Topic.





pinksugarsub -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 8:12:11 PM)

Thankies to MisOchistic.  Sorry if posting in "General BDSM" made some P/pl upset (my, aren't W/we sensitive souls) but i thought since the subject concerned SEX it belonged here.  Any female, subbie, slave of Domme, can or has faced the fright of a late period.




juliaoceania -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 8:34:58 PM)

I am not upset by it, it is just that it is against forum guidelines to have off topic stuff in gen discussion, and this is not a topic about BDSM. It has nothing to do with my personal opinions, it is just the guidelines of the forums.. they have moved many subjects pertaining to sexuality there.




brightspot -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 8:47:08 PM)

{fast reply}
 
I think the reverse of Roe vs Wade was well into the making when this country's leadership changed from Democrat to Republican.
 
I think it will be a scary issue for women and the rights of their own bodies and their equally intelligent and sincere forthought to decide what is right for them personally, as long as there is a Republican(s) at the helm of this country's decision making power seat(s).
 
It could get devastingy ugly for women and their reproductive rights.
I remember wearing a button(and still have it) that says..
"No More Hangers"
Would be prettty fricken horrific in this day and age.
 
Remember to Vote!
 
Missy.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/17/2007 9:07:05 PM)

On the other hand, sexuality and politics has always been a hot issue of hers, so it's no surprise to see it pop up again here.

Wonder whatever happened to that Political Activist Committee?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_211999/mpage_1/key_abortion/tm.htm#211999
60 Minutes report on Plan B (as CandyStripper)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_262821/mpage_1/key_abortion/tm.htm#262821
Sexual Timeline (as CandyStripper)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_191793/mpage_1/key_rights/tm.htm#191793
Protecting 1st Amendment Rights (as PinkPleasures)




pinksugarsub -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 3:13:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am not upset by it, it is just that it is against forum guidelines to have off topic stuff in gen discussion, and this is not a topic about BDSM. It has nothing to do with my personal opinions, it is just the guidelines of the forums.. they have moved many subjects pertaining to sexuality there.


TY juliaoceania.  A reminder that it doesn't hurt to read the Forum TOS from time to time.




StellaByStarlite -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 4:04:21 AM)

The way I see it, abortion is entirely grey and people tend to view either the "black" or the "white" scenarios. I have no problem admitting that I have mixed feelings regarding this topic. Sure, I suppose we want abortion safe and legal as an option, but then again.. I have no respect for a mature, adult woman who has an abortion because a baby would interfere with her career.




LadyEllen -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 4:13:11 AM)

Unless we are to concede that a woman's reproductive organs are the property of the state, then it must remain the decision of women as to if and how they produce offspring.

On the question of the legality and even morality of abortion, it does well to remember that whether legal or moral or not, abortions have been provided in the past and would be provided in future in the case of a ban, in less than suitable conditions and with less than adequate resources. Indeed the move to legalise abortion was as I believe, motivated as much by concern over the prior situation as by any other factor.

There may well be a religious motivation to ban abortion. However this is not sufficient in my opinion to justify the removal of a woman's rights over her own person, which rights it must be noted are discounted entirely (not just in the case of reproduction) by the religions which would prefer a ban. Also to be taken into account, is that the religious views of others are not in any way relevant to those not part of the faith in question. Even should those religious views gain ascendancy through the democratic process, they remain religious views and not political policy, because for them to gain credence as political policy, must be to concede all personal and individual rights to the state, wherever the religion concerned disagrees with those rights. In such an instance, the religious rulers would also have to reinstitute slavery amongst other horrors supported by their texts; it could not be a pick and mix affair, unless they wish to concede that their rule is about political power rather than religious salvation for the nation.

Such religious motivations must also in such case, account for the psychological, social and monetary cost of a ban. Yes, I would say that ideally, we would want every child to be born healthy, to loving, stable parents to which the religious view aspires - but in the real world, even in the far more religious 1950s and before, the converse occurred with sufficient regularity to have prompted debate. In those days, children born to unwed mothers and to legal minors were forced to be adopted or were taken into social or church care, and the dreadful stories we hear in our times about the consequences of this should provide us with material for strong reflection before going down such a path again.

Aside from the question of personal rights and freedoms, and the potentially horrific danger of illegal abortion, and the consequences of a ban in terms of society as a whole outlined in the previous paragraph, we must also consider that abortion is not an easy way out of anything. I have known two young women now, who chose the abortion route; one from necessity as she saw it, since her child was suffering many abnormalities and would suffer its whole life, the other out of concern for herself and the child, given that the father turned into a monster when he knew she was pregnant, did not want children and no longer wanted her. Both women suffered immensely, far more than words can relate.

However, it must also be remembered that there is a second person involved in any pregnancy - the father. Whilst it is not his body which is pregnant, he must have a say in things too I feel. How much of a say is another question on which I am not decided, but I have seen the pain suffered by a father whose partner undertook an abortion without his prior knowledge, when he loved the woman concerned and very much wanted children. Paternal rights seem often to be overlooked it seems, though in the end it must be the woman who has the final say.

In the UK as I understand it, an abortion can only be provided where two doctors agree that to pursue the pregnancy to delivery would result in significant physical or psychological harm to the mother, or where the child is not likely to enjoy any quality of life. In practice however, it would seem that these controls are often overlooked or met only for convenience' sake. The whole question does need to be looked at again perhaps, and especially nowadays when ever more prematurely born children can be raised ex utero, which was not a situation envisioned when the laws were first passed or in subsequent amendments regarding time limits.

E





Mercnbeth -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 7:52:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

In a way, this is a test of O/our collective civility. i like the community of P/pl here, and have longed for an intelligent, non-screaming debate on reproductive rights for women.

To begin: do Y/you think the present U.S. Supreme Court will overturn Roe v. Wade? In the current session? (In America; ashamed to say i dun even know what rights women have in other countries.)



No.
 
as to comments on your other points...
 
#3.  as it stands, at least here in California, your wee one can go in for "confidential services", without your knowledge or consent, and the public school system will support their decision and choice by NOT reporting it to you, if it happens during school hours...you'll have to consent to the admission to the hospital for the birthing process if it is late term, however, or they'd have to hide that from you somehow else.
 
#4.  same deal as #3...at least here in California, clinics exist that will dispense all manner of contraception and information to your wee one without your knowledge or consent, they can make the appointment during school hours, the school doesn't report it to you, so you are none the wiser.
 
#5.  this slave is 40, and has met two such women in her life.  after the 5th one, one of them decided to go ahead and get on that pesky pill...the other one, lost contact with, don't know how many she has had by now, but heard she had 3 live births anyway.
 
#7. regardless of if it is eroded or overturned, women have been aborting and using methods of contraception for a very long time, and this slave doubts that will ever change, no matter who's government outlaws it or religion damns them to hell for it.




farglebargle -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 8:24:18 AM)

Property is Freedom.

If you don't own YOUR SELF, then you are nothing more than a Slave.

Now the Hamiltonians will disagree, for they have their own agenda for their "Liberal" interpretation of the Constitution, but I do not see the Authority to regulate anything regarding remotely like reproduction delegated via the Constitution or Amendments.

Therefore, by definition, it's not the Feds responsibility. Those who would prefer it to be, they should get busy with an Amendment, delegating it.

Now, thanks to the magic of the Intarweb, here's a memorable post...

"For the Women of South Dakota, An Abortion Manual"

http://web.archive.org/web/20060226201119/http://mollysavestheday.blogspot.com/




soultoshare -> RE: Reproductive Rights (5/18/2007 8:38:25 AM)

My question is, for all the pro-lifers out there trying to tell women what to do with their bodies is this......are THEY ready to take on the responsibility for the child that the woman doesn't want?  Outlaw abortion, and you'll have children being dumped like so much trash at (hopefully) hospitals, fire departments, other safe havens.....who is going to provide for them?  WE ARE......with our tax dollars!  Where are the pro-lifers then?And then there are going to be the bodies in dumpsters, public bathrooms, alleys....the ones of the desperate teen ager too afraid to tell her parents about the baby.  Not to mention the loss of the girls who are afraid to get medical attention when something goes wrong with their birth.

It's my body, and if i decide that i don't want the child, then it's up to me to make peace with my decision.  Too often, i've seen the results of abuse and cruelty that is the life of an unwanted child.  THAT'S what the pro-lifers should see.  Don't get me wrong, i'm not slamming pro-lifers....it's just that they refuse to see the reality of an unwanted child's life.  And they reek of hypocrisy......they are perfectly agrreable to killing a doctor that may or may not perform an abortion, yet condemn a woman to hell for making her own decision.  I've had one, i know it's not an easy decision to make, but at the time, it was the best and only one to make. 

Anyway, that's my .02 for this morning....




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