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submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 3:08:17 AM

NakedGirlScout

Posts: 370
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Toronto
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I've been wondering if anyone else feels this way or what they would call it.

My way of submission is something I haven't been able to connect with any other subs to talk about. Everyone I meet seems to want to either surrender completely to have no control, or on the other hand they seem to want only sensation play and do not want to be ordered what to do outside of scenes.

I love being told what to do, to serve, even to the point of being micromanaged. I find I am much more relaxed than when I need to tell myself what to do, and I hate having responsibility. But I have never felt or wanted to feel as if I had no control. I obey because it feels good to obey and because it makes the other person happy. But there is no sense whatsoever of any kind of surrender inside of me. I could just as easily decide I didn't feel like obeying anymore, and it wouldn't bother me. Not that I would break my word if I had agreed to obey someone, but that's what it is, a kind of verbal contract that I honor. I am not devastated or even too upset if I disappoint my dom, although I genuinely want to make my partner happy and would work hard to do that. Other submissives I speak to talk to me of being totally devastated with so much as a frown from their dom.

Anyone else feel they are submissive because it feels good and not because they have somehow lost any control to their dominant? Is there a label for this kind of submission? Just curious because I'd like to connect with like-minded people so I don't feel so totally alien.

Post #: 1

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 3:36:45 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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i see submission and surrender this way: If i hand over my the keys to my car the Dominant is driving, has full and total control of the vehicle and my safety and where we are going. But it's still my car and i alone am responsible for insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc. That is submission.

If i sign over the title to the car then the Dominant would assume the responsibility of the insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc in addition to being in control of the vehicle, where we are going, safety etc. That is surrender.

At least that's the way i see it.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 2

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 3:39:52 AM

NakedGirlScout

Posts: 370
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Toronto
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OMG eyesopened what a perfect analogy!!! That's exactly how I feel! Like I still own myself and am ultimately responsible for my own choices, but I am happily cooperating with my dom by being obedient :)
thank you!

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 3

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 3:43:02 AM

nonu

Posts: 139
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Cochin, India
Status: offline

Not that i'm in the same or similar situation, but yes, i do have some sort of an idea of what you may be going through.

This happened with me in my initial days of realising my submissive nature towards Women. There were times when i'd want to give in totally, and yet there were times when i felt that it was 'weak' of me to do so.

It is only after 'growing' over a period of more than five years, that i came to realise how much my submissive nature had changed since. It made me more in tune and comfortable with being under the control of another person. Needless to say, my capacity for losing control over my own existence had increased manifold during this period.

The only one thing that i can attribute this change to, is the 'trust' i developed in my Queen over this period. It became apparent to me, that She was the one who really knew what i was best for, how i could best behave, and where i needed to change myself for the better.

Thus, as i began to trust all choices and decisions made by Her, i became more and more capable of surrendering myself totally to Her.

Maybe someday you'll come across that 'Special Someone', who'll make you feel so complete that you want to give in totally to him. All i'd say for now is that there's absolutely no need to feel alien about it.

Remember, we're all different...until we realise we're all the same, and vice versa!

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 4

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 3:47:45 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

You're not alone. I think more subs feel like you than you might imagine. I'm pretty much the same. The only difference I have is...I wouldn't say that there is no sense of any kind of surrender inside of me, but I don't get devastated either. I mean, I like to make the other person happy and it does feel good, but there's shit I don't like to do and I'm NEVER going to like to do and, as I said on a different thread, I may get a sense of accomplishmen once the thing is done, I really have a hard time understanding that joy others talk about...doing it for him. That doesn't mean that I won't do it, just that I'm not liking it And, there's some things I just won't do no matter what, but I'm pretty sure we all have those things.

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 5

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 3:52:16 AM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
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My comments come from 'Slavecraft' and 'The Compleat Slave', with maybe a little sprinkle of Jeff thrown in.

In some parts of what you are saying, you fall directly in line with the components of being a 'slave' from the above books. You just might not realize it.

I interpret your 'ability' to be able to withdraw your obedience at any time as being 'self-preservation'. If anything goes wrong in the relationship, you know how to take care of yourself. You might not see it in just those terms, but what you are saying is that you do have the ability to distance yourself if you have to. To ignore self-preservation is rather vapid.

You say you dislike having responsibility. In the sense of being a slave rather than being a submissive, this would still fall in line. The more you submit, the more the 'owner' takes on as responsibility. At that point, without having to concern themself with 'self', all that is left to 'do' is to serve and obey. Simplistic? Perhaps, but I don't see the difference between the two as being much more complicated than that. A submissive (one that has one or more areas in their life in which they 'can't' or 'won't' submit) has to be protective of their 'areas' and be responsible for themselves in that way. A slave is freed from that.

You imply that you are in a position to be compared to other sub/slaves. One of the earliest truths I have found in the Lifestyle is that, given the opportunity, subs and slaves are a competitive lot (just as d-types are, given the same opportunity). Any chance to show that they are 'more' or 'better' is a way to glorify their Dom or Owner, and themselves in so doing. Whether this is valid or not, or despite there being some measuring stick for submission, this fact remains.

We all need to find our 'place' and be comfortable with that. Whatever you are, whoever you believe yourself to be, and 'where' on the sub/slave scale you think you are, is ultimately a matter of yours and your partner, and nobody else. It needn't be any more complicated than that. If your presence in the public arena is getting uncomfortable, then withdraw from that for a while. Your relationship is still yours to 'grow' and to enjoy.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 6

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 3:57:14 AM

NakedGirlScout

Posts: 370
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Toronto
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Is it necessarily "growing" in submission to lose control? What if one "grows" by becoming more perfectly obedient and pleasing and better able to take care of oneself so that one's dom does not have to "change your oil and pay your taxes" as per the car analogy? This is where I lose context. Why is being out of control a desirable thing -- why is it called growing. I'm not putting it down, it seems to make a lot of people wildly happy, so it must be a good thing for the people involved. But why isn't coming out of a helpless place in your life and learning to take charge of and responsibility for your own welfare not, also, desirable and called "growing" in your submission? I feel like the less my dom has to do the mundane things for my welfare, the more quality submission I can give to him. Do some doms desire a helpless nature in their sub so that they're forced to take over the sub's finances and health care and other such everyday decisions for the sub's own good? Or maybe I am confusing two different ideas.

(in reply to nonu)

Post #: 7

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 4:58:32 AM

MadRabbit

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Joined: 8/9/2006
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After a lot of contemplation and some experiences with power based relationships, I find the aspects of "total surrender with no control" and "total power and control" to be rooted more in fantasy. An illusion at best or a romanticed way of describing the relationship.

Everyone has power and everyone has control, because of consent. The reality is that any slave or submissive I have is there because she wants to be there. And if she doesnt want to be there, then I am really quite powerless. Nothing teaches this better than having a relationship not work out.

However, by agreeing to be there, I can have absolute authority threw her choice to submit to my will. But the choice is always hers, no matter how much I want to carefully construct semantics so it seems like its not, and therefore the notion that she has no control always rings false to me.

You are ultimately responsible for all your choices because you ultimately made a choice to let me make choices for you.

But that is just how I see things.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 5/18/2007 5:14:21 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 8

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 5:05:51 AM

MadRabbit

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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i see submission and surrender this way: If i hand over my the keys to my car the Dominant is driving, has full and total control of the vehicle and my safety and where we are going. But it's still my car and i alone am responsible for insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc. That is submission.

If i sign over the title to the car then the Dominant would assume the responsibility of the insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc in addition to being in control of the vehicle, where we are going, safety etc. That is surrender.

At least that's the way i see it.

In a relationship based on consent, you can take back the title of the car anytime you want to.

Which begs the question...was the car REALLY ever his to begin with or were you just letting him borrow it?

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 5/18/2007 5:11:37 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 9

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 8:13:52 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

There are several different orientations and motivations of submission. I love when people are shocked when a sub admits she isn't motivated or wants to serve. Silly kinky people.

I'd call you obedience & service oriented.

I am service & control oriented.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 10

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 10:35:08 AM

littleone35

Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline

Well i surrendered my heart to my Master, but i handle my own finances and health care (even though sometimes tells me to go to the dr cause i don't like em). To continue the car analogy he takes the wheel but i still know how to drive.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 11

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 12:14:51 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

It would take an awful lot to disappoint M and I absolutely don't crumble if he frowns or glares at me, either. I don't like it if he's pissed off with me but often that's mostly a matter of personal safety...lol

I submit to his will because that's what I agreed to do, I don't do it because I have lost a will of my own. I haven't really *lost* control to M either; I asked for HIS control.

Surrender........Well, yes, I have surrendered to him. I couldn't live this way if I hadn't.

agirl

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 12

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/18/2007 1:51:34 PM

pamperingurfeet

Posts: 5
Joined: 5/18/2007
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i never lost my own will. i prefer to hand over my will to her and let her do what she wants with me. this takes a special woman who i trust completely of course. when i find her again i will surrender my entire being to her becuase that is what she wants and because that is where i am most happy and fulfilled.

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 13

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/19/2007 4:16:07 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

i would dearly love to sign over the title but it appears that most Masters want me to sign over the title and as a slave, continue to be responsible for all the upkeep and expense of the car and pay for the gas while telling me i need to find my own transporation to work. For me, i am not comfortable surrendering that for which the Master refuses to be responsible. That's why i would never call myself a slave.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to pamperingurfeet)

Post #: 14

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/19/2007 5:07:38 AM

earthycouple

Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

I interpret your 'ability' to be able to withdraw your obedience at any time as being 'self-preservation'. If anything goes wrong in the relationship, you know how to take care of yourself. You might not see it in just those terms, but what you are saying is that you do have the ability to distance yourself if you have to. To ignore self-preservation is rather vapid.

Jeff

*points finger to nose and yells "nail on head, nail on head" at the top of her lungs

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to mstrjx)

Post #: 15

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/19/2007 5:28:25 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i see submission and surrender this way: If i hand over my the keys to my car the Dominant is driving, has full and total control of the vehicle and my safety and where we are going. But it's still my car and i alone am responsible for insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc. That is submission.

If i sign over the title to the car then the Dominant would assume the responsibility of the insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc in addition to being in control of the vehicle, where we are going, safety etc. That is surrender.

At least that's the way i see it.

In a relationship based on consent, you can take back the title of the car anytime you want to.

Which begs the question...was the car REALLY ever his to begin with or were you just letting him borrow it?

*laughs* i'd have to get back to You on that since today i feel very much like the old Peaugot that Columbo drove in the TV series. You are correct, no one has ever wanted to really own the car in the first place.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 16

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/19/2007 12:29:48 PM

welshwmn3

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

My comments come from 'Slavecraft' and 'The Compleat Slave', with maybe a little sprinkle of Jeff thrown in.
(respectful snippage)

You say you dislike having responsibility. In the sense of being a slave rather than being a submissive, this would still fall in line. The more you submit, the more the 'owner' takes on as responsibility. At that point, without having to concern themself with 'self', all that is left to 'do' is to serve and obey. Simplistic? Perhaps, but I don't see the difference between the two as being much more complicated than that. A submissive (one that has one or more areas in their life in which they 'can't' or 'won't' submit) has to be protective of their 'areas' and be responsible for themselves in that way. A slave is freed from that.

What about slave relationships that don't hold to that paradigm though? I know you are taking some of your ideas from those two books, but there are lots of different ways of manifesting a M/s relationship, and some of them don't relegate the slave to having no responsibility.

I know this is a tangent off of the OP's comment, and I don't mean to derail the conversation. ... I think I'll make a whole new post on this tangent.

(in reply to mstrjx)

Post #: 17

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/19/2007 12:37:17 PM

NakedGirlScout

Posts: 370
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

Please don't think you need to create a new topic welshwmn3, it seems to be in my best interests to hear what you have to say on this topic and I'd be interested to hear it.

(in reply to welshwmn3)

Post #: 18

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/19/2007 12:53:53 PM

welshwmn3

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline

Ah. Too late. But it's in this section :).

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 19

RE: submission without surrender? - 5/19/2007 12:58:32 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

Hello NGS,

In reading your OP the question that came to mind was control of what? You say that you do not want to feel as if you have no control, but control of what? What does surrender look like to you?

As a slave in my relationship, I retain a great deal of control and I have quite a few responsibilities. He controls who is going to make the decisions. Sometimes he will make them and sometimes he will tell me or alandra to make them. He makes the decision on the path we are going to take as a family. In controlling myself and fulfilling the responsibilities that I have I help make sure that we stay on the path he has laid out.

I don't think that you are all the far apart from other submissives or slaves. The disparity that you are perceiving may be more about the differences between use of terms like control, surrender and responsibility.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 20

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