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RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 9:09:02 AM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

That is the crucial question - is it right to break a vow? Conceptually, if someone chooses to reliquish power and the decision over release, is it a right or wrong thing to just leave?


I don't think there is a way to answer that question definitively with a blanket yes or no answer.  I think it is a case by case scenario and also it depends on what the particular individual's values are and what is important to them.

quote:

What does that say about character and honesty and integrity, the supposed hallmarks of our little niche?


Again, depends on the situation.  If the Master is not holding up his end of the bargain he has not behaved honestly or with integrity. 

I have no clue if the OP is giving all the story.  Whether she is right or wrong to do it is really not my judgment to make, either.  I don't care to.  I would be more concerned with how I interact with my own submissive and the vows we have with each other.  Obviously not every submissive gives up the right to leave or has a dynamic where begging for release is protocol.  But when it is, the reality is, it is not really enforceable.  Then it comes down to personal choice.  Sometimes I could look at a situation and think the person should honor the vows and stick it out.  Sometimes not.  But rarely does anyone outside the relationship have enough data to really make that call unless their view is a blanket "it is always wrong to leave once you've agreed to give up the ability to leave without release being granted."

That's not my personal view on things.  YMMV. :)

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to ExtremeOwnerIL)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 1:31:17 PM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline 		MsKatHouston,

A very interesting response. Thank you.

My kindest regards,
EO


_____________________________

Some of my thoughts on Ownership:

http://extremeowner.blogspot.com/

(in reply to MsKatHouston)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 1:46:05 PM   
MissHarlet


Posts: 2728
Joined: 9/11/2005
From: El Paso , TX US
Status: offline 		Even if you make vows .. if the relationship isnt working .. she asked for release .. he could have taken the high road and granted it .. but since he didnt she can and should leave.. and has it seems.

Why would anyone want a submissive that isnt satisfying the Dominant and is asking for release and whining. 

Our relationships arent always easy ... or what we like doing .. but overall if it isnt fun .. you are in the wrong place ... so get out of it ..however you need to.

_____________________________

Protectress of hearts/souls of all submissives calling Bounty's Place home, by order of Bounty~Proprietor

To be respected you must be respectful, to be loved you must be willing to love,
to be trusted you must be willing to trust.

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 1:55:01 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		To the OP..in some ways I have to agree with EO..First off I am sensing you are seeking validation for a decision already made and carried out. To in effect absolve yourself fro  any guilt you are experiencing from the withdraw from you dynamic without permission...You did it, there is no going back from it right or wrong..Anyway, I think it is always dependant on a situation by situation context. In yours and the info I have (limited) if you went into this knowing you would have to receive permission to leave it then you did not live up to your word and hence you must live with that failing..If he made demands upon you that you felt were unreasonable but you went into this as a no limits situation then again you did not live up to your end. Sometimes as a submissive one is instructed to do what one may not like, may actually hate, it is not all about the fun good things you as a submissive will do, but some of the harder things as well.It all simply comes down to what was agreed in the beginning and wether you meant them..Learn from this experience, and maybe re-think what you truly want out of your D/s relationship for the next time around...Tempting

_____________________________

I have greatly enjoyed the second blooming...suddenly you find at the age of 50, that a whole new life has opened before you.........Agatha Christie.

You must make tracks into the unknown~~Thoreau

(in reply to ExtremeOwnerIL)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 1:55:41 PM   
DrkJourney


Posts: 1917
Joined: 5/6/2007
Status: offline 		I totally agree with the above ladies.   I understand vows and promises...but this lifestyle is based on it being consentual...if she is no longer interested in the relationship...then use the door.   Maybe I'm over simplifying....but I'll be damned if I keep someone around that didn't want to be here....and don't think I'd want him any way if he was such a wimp that he wouldn't leave if he was that unhappy.

< Message edited by DrkJourney -- 5/20/2007 1:56:51 PM >

_____________________________

...Look into my eyes and I'll own you....



(in reply to MissHarlet)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 2:24:40 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear justplainjava, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I can only speak from my personal experiences and knowledge.  Having most of my beginnings in the lifestyle around Old Guard - Yes, they were Gay men and in their 60's when I started in the 1970's; each part of the Nation each group that formed never identified themselves as "The Old Guard."  But, what was established was a military like organization within these groups which borrowed from their military past.
 
That said, I must assume that this individual has used "Old Guard" like so many others before; as to establish credibility by the past and not by present.  I do consider myself "Old."  I have been deemed by my Gay Leather brothers as Old Leather or Final Leather depending on region.
 
In all my conversations with the Gay Leather men, some who are in their 70's and older; the more up to date members of the Gay Leather Community I still interact with; there is one rule that supersedes any other rule or promise.  That is, to protect yourself--even from your own Master or slave.  So, in summary--Protecting yourself from harm is paramount over any other rules as far as a Master/slave relationship goes.
 
There are always two sides of the story in all relationships.  I'm sure there is much more to the story than the readers are exposed to.
 
One thing that I must stress, to those who use the "No Limits Slave" in seeking an Owner.  That is, everybody has limits and to make sure you (the individual) understand, that there will be a time where you will find limits of what you will do, won't do and or cannot do.  No Limit Slave to me, means their limits haven't been identified--not that such individuals are boundless in obedience and or abuse.  Although the heart and spirit of a slave may willingly want to subject themselves to abuse; the body may protest--something all humans must contend with.
 
Old Guard or not, I ache for the people who come into the lifestyle and do not understand that enslavement is not a blank check/cheque for someone to abuse the slave via consent to more than they are physically, emotionally, mentally and or spiritually--able.
 
It is extremely important in the negotiations prior to any collaring talk, to really understand what the other means, in all aspects of what a Master-slave and or Dominant-submissive relationship.  In other words; to see through another person's eyes and mind.  It is just as important to have patience with each other and make sure understanding is there, not a vague idea and or going on assumptions and or promises.
 
Unfortunately, a person's word is not always their bond.  Those who have little or no compassion for others, will never be sympathetic to a change in the manner of service and or domination.  Included in the negotiations should be the what if's if either have medical issues that crop up and will that relationship last beyond the 'playing' factor.  It seems that most put more focus on the sex and play in this lifestyle, rather than making a union that will last.
 
Life is full of lessons.  I highly recommend seeing beyond the lemons in life and see what no book, no forum and or advice can teach you.
Use it as a measure for the future.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to justplainjava)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 6:50:21 PM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissHarlet

Even if you make vows .. if the relationship isnt working .. she asked for release .. he could have taken the high road and granted it .. but since he didnt she can and should leave.. and has it seems.

Why would anyone want a submissive that isnt satisfying the Dominant and is asking for release and whining. 

Our relationships arent always easy ... or what we like doing .. but overall if it isnt fun .. you are in the wrong place ... so get out of it ..however you need to.


NOTE: The following is my personal ethics and views of life. Perhaps it will help to explain why I ask the questions I've asked.

Life is not always fun. Life is not about all things being fun. Life is difficult. So is living a relationship of Owner/property. Sometimes, these things can be the most difficult of all. Such things, to me, are not taken lightly.

Why might an Owner decline release? Quite simply, because he chooses to. As MsKatHouston has so aptly described, we don't know all the contexts that can apply to such a situation.

I try to create a world around me where character, responsibility and honor figure just as importantly as "fun". This has been a difficult lesson to learn, but one that has brought me a personal sense of center. To me, if I made a promise to own someone, I'm not going to release them at the drop of a pin, otherwise where is the value of such a huge responsiblity?

Ah, but I know one can always bring up the obvious gross cases of abuse,  neglect and harm. That is why I speak of the other 90% of consentual power exchanges where the approval of release lies with the Owner. In these cases, if vows are made and to be kept for other parts of the relationship (care, feeding, training,  etc) - then why not the most important vow of all - to stay until released?

This is, of course, my own philosophy and questions that I pose.

Kindest regards,
EO


_____________________________

Some of my thoughts on Ownership:

http://extremeowner.blogspot.com/

(in reply to MissHarlet)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 7:22:10 PM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		I was thinking about this a bit today.  I think it is important to try to honor all promises.  But sometimes that simply can not happen.  It may be because of circumstances beyond our control or for personal safety...many reasons.  I don't necessarily think just the act of breaking a promise is dishonorable, though it can be in some cases.

For example, say I promised to take my friend to the airport tomorrow.  But, late tonight I had a personal emergency and I had to take care of it, thus not being able to take her to the airport.  I had no way of knowing this would occur and would have honored that promise had a circumstance beyond my control not have come up.  I don't think that makes me dishonorable, really.  But in the same circumstance if I just simply felt like sleeping in and said "too bad, wish I could.  Can't".  That, would be dishonorable in my estimation.

I know that is a simplistic example and not really on par with human relationships but some parallels can be made.  Honoring the dynamic of a relationship is important.  I think all avanues should be exhausted first to try to honor a promise of that.  But I also think that under certain conditions, breaking that promise can be the best solution. 

(My thoughts on this are a general view, nothing pertaining to the OP's particular case)

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to ExtremeOwnerIL)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: question for old guard - 5/20/2007 7:31:21 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Firstly, cme police? Can I get a badge? I'd love a cme badge, truly.

Secondly, there is no should in the human heart. If a s type sets limits for his/her safety and the d type breaks them, thus breaking his word to protect the s type, we must conclude that the d type is not trustworthy nor safe to be with. In this case, the s type must protect her/himself even if that means protecting her/himself from the d type person.

He damaged her with some edgy activities, he said effectively so what and announced he would do it again despite the negative effect it had on her. He broke his vow and therefore she should not stay with him since he has proven himself uninterested in preserving her well being.

As far as the d type having his own reason to damage her, but declining to share said reason? The only purpose to not share the reason is that he knows damn well it isn't a good one. He already lost her trust and therefore lost the ability to demand she trust him blindly.

Besides what this kind of relationship boils down to is "my way or the highway" and she picked the highway. As far as him harassing her, move out stat and if she already has inform him any more contact will result in reporting him to the authorities for hasassment and stalking. Then don't open the door, don't answer the phone, don't respond to his email, text messages etc.

(in reply to MsKatHouston)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: question for old guard - 5/21/2007 9:43:33 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsKatHouston

I was thinking about this a bit today.  I think it is important to try to honor all promises.  But sometimes that simply can not happen.  It may be because of circumstances beyond our control or for personal safety...many reasons.  I don't necessarily think just the act of breaking a promise is dishonorable, though it can be in some cases.

For example, say I promised to take my friend to the airport tomorrow.  But, late tonight I had a personal emergency and I had to take care of it, thus not being able to take her to the airport.  I had no way of knowing this would occur and would have honored that promise had a circumstance beyond my control not have come up.  I don't think that makes me dishonorable, really.  But in the same circumstance if I just simply felt like sleeping in and said "too bad, wish I could.  Can't".  That, would be dishonorable in my estimation.

I know that is a simplistic example and not really on par with human relationships but some parallels can be made.  Honoring the dynamic of a relationship is important.  I think all avanues should be exhausted first to try to honor a promise of that.  But I also think that under certain conditions, breaking that promise can be the best solution. 

(My thoughts on this are a general view, nothing pertaining to the OP's particular case)


I had said this in a previous response to "MissHarlet" - "Life is difficult" but I find for me that the challenge and reward is to overcome those difficulties. I try to remember (with failures unfortunately) that I do have control over my reactions and my approaches to resolving situations. For instance, if I were in that situation that you described, I believe I could still keep my promise. I would hire a taxicab, already paid in full plus tip, or arrange for other transportation at my expense.

I think what I'm saying here is that I believe there are usually ways to fulfill one's vows and promises in most circumstances. In the end, if I can't live up to a promise, then it's my duty to accept responsibility and make amends. Again, context and situation make it difficult to predict every situation, but for me, ethics and character give me a roadmap of how to handle life's difficulties.

Taken to the topic of a slave living up to her vow of slavery and acceptance of place - she finds herself in a difficult situation and begs for release. Her owner declines.

Of course, we can talk about the abusive situations and the "out there" situations that many bring up as good examples of "when" it would make sense to retract consent. Those situations do occur and one has to do what one has to do to take care of themselves. I think, rather, I'm speaking to the other 90% of situations and examples. The "sane" situations, if you don't mind the reference.

What should/can a slave do? Be a slave. This is the path they chose. Situations such as this are what can happen. The easy way is to "just walk." I hope, that in the 90% of situations where it's more about "difficult life" than abusive situations, the slave will have the honor to remain, to either learn to overcome the difficulty or do what she must to gain release.

Difficult? I'm sure it would be. But, I truly believe any journey worth taking is going to be difficult.

I'm not sure what else I can say to add to my thread of thoughts here, but it has truly been a pleasure for me to discuss this. Thank you.

Kindest regards,
EO



_____________________________

Some of my thoughts on Ownership:

http://extremeowner.blogspot.com/

(in reply to MsKatHouston)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: question for old guard - 5/21/2007 11:22:46 AM   
meticulousgirl


Posts: 969
Joined: 2/20/2007
Status: offline 		attention, attention, attention.  That's all the OP is out for I guarentee it, if we stop posting the OP will go somewhere else. 

I'm still going for the huh factor....

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: question for old guard - 5/21/2007 10:29:59 PM   
ennaozzie


Posts: 201
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		Hard to tell if the Master or sub wrote this? i am confused, but when it comes to rules every couple is different, did you not duscuss these things before you got together? isent it an agreement between the couple? as to what the reasons for release would be?

beanie

_____________________________

Never make someone your priority when you are only their option

If coffee hurts your eye's take the spoon out of the mug

(in reply to justplainjava)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: question for old guard - 5/21/2007 10:38:19 PM   
ennaozzie


Posts: 201
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		I left my Dominant (who i was married to) when i found out he did care for me in his own way but only remaind with me so all his children would have the same mother, because i was unfortunite enough to have contreception fail on me the first time, (excuse the spelling).  (Let me say here i would not change a thing i had a fantastic three years till i found out) I refuse to live with anyone perminantly when its like that, i did not go by any rules other than my moral guide lines i put in place for myself years ago.  in other words i am to be their choice not just someone that will do because i was a good mother.

I have seen so many stick together and have a realy bad time of it, and waste so much of their life, because of one reason or another, if you know deep down there is no way to work on a problem and it will never be resolved, move on.

beanie

_____________________________

Never make someone your priority when you are only their option

If coffee hurts your eye's take the spoon out of the mug

(in reply to MsKatHouston)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: question for old guard - 5/22/2007 9:22:32 PM   
BONDAGEMASTER66


Posts: 1
Joined: 5/22/2005
Status: offline 		EXCESSIVE LIMITS  CREATE A HARDSHIP FOR THE MASTER, HE MUST DECIDE IF HE CAN ENJOT A SUCCESSFUL SCENE WITH THOSE LIMITS. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME TRYING TO GET HER TO CHANGE THEM, THE TIME AND EFFORT IS  FRUSTRATING . LET HER GO CMPLETELY/
IF YOU KNOW YOUR SKILL, IT WILL BE HER LOSS.

(in reply to DrkJourney)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: question for old guard - 6/1/2007 9:28:20 AM   
Arastella


Posts: 262
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

huh?
Well spoken! I didn't understand a word of that either...

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: question for old guard - 6/1/2007 9:32:33 AM   
Arastella


Posts: 262
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

the only thing the "collar me police" are going to come down on you about is giving out persoanl information such as his  full legal name, screen name or email address.

Other than that... you can pretty much talk about whatever your heart desires
Or flaming them personally... lol, got a friend who did that and toyed with them for a while

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: question for old guard - 6/1/2007 11:49:05 AM   
justplainjava


Posts: 173
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		thank you Lady hugs,

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: question for old guard - 6/2/2007 1:41:05 AM   
MasterofTPEs


Posts: 2
Joined: 6/23/2005
Status: offline 		I did explain the whole complete problem this one is having, but a moderator chose to censor it out.  So all of you reading this part of the forum won't be allowed to read the complete true story about this subject. I wrote it poilitly but I guess the truth doesn't belong here. And for the Moderator that took out the truth, 'shame on you'. And you can't say I am personally attacking you since I didn't use your number, moderator. Next time I will remember NOT to speak the truth here for that gets you blocked.

(in reply to justplainjava)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: question for old guard - 6/2/2007 7:19:50 PM   
justplainjava


Posts: 173
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		i am sorry that the master got block and no he did not tell the whole truth, for there some things about me he omited, i wish the truth could have been posted here, but life goes on i guess,
be safe and well
plain old java property and slave to no one

(in reply to MasterofTPEs)
Profile   Post #: 59
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