WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (Full Version)

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SirKenin -> WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 2:50:14 PM)

I figure we will go the same road that all the conspiracy theorist wankers walk down.  All their evidence is Google video and YouTube.

Ok..   Check this out. 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6243624912447824934&q=9%2F11+Mysteries




SirKenin -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 2:52:39 PM)

Oh.  Did anyone notice that when the WTC collapsed, the top collapsed first?  At the point of jetliner impact?  I wonder if someone should tell these "controlled demolition" theorist morons that control demolitions take out the *foundation* first.  [8|]




Real0ne -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 3:17:22 PM)

There are several ways to take out a building in a controlled demolition and the reports did say bombs in the basement prior to brining it down  :)

So we can put John F Kennedy Oon that list of conspiracy wankers hey ken?  here are a few words about the illuminati and how they operate for you to ponder, you could ask him but oh wait they killed him thats right:




I
     The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know.
     But I do ask every publisher, every editor, and every newsman in the nation to reexamine his own standards, and to recognize the nature of our country's peril. In time of war, the government and the press have customarily joined in an effort based largely on self-discipline, to prevent unauthorized disclosures to the enemy. In time of "clear and present danger," the courts have held that even the privileged rights of the First Amendment must yield to the public's need for national security.
     Today no war has been declared--and however fierce the struggle may be, it may never be declared in the traditional fashion. Our way of life is under attack. Those who make themselves our enemy are advancing around the globe. The survival of our friends is in danger. And yet no war has been declared, no borders have been crossed by marching troops, no missiles have been fired.
     If the press is awaiting a declaration of war before it imposes the self-discipline of combat conditions, then I can only say that no war ever posed a greater threat to our security. If you are awaiting a finding of "clear and present danger," then I can only say that the danger has never been more clear and its presence has never been more imminent.
     It requires a change in outlook, a change in tactics, a change in missions--by the government, by the people, by every businessman or labor leader, and by every newspaper. For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations.
     Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match.
     Nevertheless, every democracy recognizes the necessary restraints of national security--and the question remains whether those restraints need to be more strictly observed if we are to oppose this kind of attack as well as outright invasion.
     For the facts of the matter are that this nation's foes have openly boasted of acquiring through our newspapers information they would otherwise hire agents to acquire through theft, bribery or espionage; that details of this nation's covert preparations to counter the enemy's covert operations have been available to every newspaper reader, friend and foe alike; that the size, the strength, the location and the nature of our forces and weapons, and our plans and strategy for their use, have all been pinpointed in the press and other news media to a degree sufficient to satisfy any foreign power; and that, in at least in one case, the publication of details concerning a secret mechanism whereby satellites were followed required its alteration at the expense of considerable time and money.
     The newspapers which printed these stories were loyal, patriotic, responsible and well-meaning. Had we been engaged in open warfare, they undoubtedly would not have published such items. But in the absence of open warfare, they recognized only the tests of journalism and not the tests of national security. And my question tonight is whether additional tests should not now be adopted.
     The question is for you alone to answer. No public official should answer it for you. No governmental plan should impose its restraints against your will. But I would be failing in my duty to the nation, in considering all of the responsibilities that we now bear and all of the means at hand to meet those responsibilities, if I did not commend this problem to your attention, and urge its thoughtful consideration.
     On many earlier occasions, I have said--and your newspapers have constantly said--that these are times that appeal to every citizen's sense of sacrifice and self-discipline. They call out to every citizen to weigh his rights and comforts against his obligations to the common good. I cannot now believe that those citizens who serve in the newspaper business consider themselves exempt from that appeal.
     I have no intention of establishing a new Office of War Information to govern the flow of news. I am not suggesting any new forms of censorship or any new types of security classifications. I have no easy answer to the dilemma that I have posed, and would not seek to impose it if I had one. But I am asking the members of the newspaper profession and the industry in this country to reexamine their own responsibilities, to consider the degree and the nature of the present danger, and to heed the duty of self-restraint which that danger imposes upon us all.
     Every newspaper now asks itself, with respect to every story: "Is it news?" All I suggest is that you add the question: "Is it in the interest of the national security?" And I hope that every group in America--unions and businessmen and public officials at every level-- will ask the same question of their endeavors, and subject their actions to the same exacting tests.
     And should the press of America consider and recommend the voluntary assumption of specific new steps or machinery, I can assure you that we will cooperate whole-heartedly with those recommendations.
     Perhaps there will be no recommendations. Perhaps there is no answer to the dilemma faced by a free and open society in a cold and secret war. In times of peace, any discussion of this subject, and any action that results, are both painful and without precedent. But this is a time of peace and peril which knows no precedent in history.
II
     It is the unprecedented nature of this challenge that also gives rise to your second obligation--an obligation which I share. And that is our obligation to inform and alert the American people--to make certain that they possess all the facts that they need, and understand them as well--the perils, the prospects, the purposes of our program and the choices that we face.
     No President should fear public scrutiny of his program. For from that scrutiny comes understanding; and from that understanding comes support or opposition. And both are necessary. I am not asking your newspapers to support the Administration, but I am asking your help in the tremendous task of informing and alerting the American people. For I have complete confidence in the response and dedication of our citizens whenever they are fully informed.
     I not only could not stifle controversy among your readers--I welcome it. This Administration intends to be candid about its errors; for as a wise man once said: "An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." We intend to accept full responsibility for our errors; and we expect you to point them out when we miss them.
     Without debate, without criticism, no Administration and no country can succeed--and no republic can survive. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy. And that is why our press was protected by the First Amendment-- the only business in America specifically protected by the Constitution- -not primarily to amuse and entertain, not to emphasize the trivial and the sentimental, not to simply "give the public what it wants"--but to inform, to arouse, to reflect, to state our dangers and our opportunities, to indicate our crises and our choices, to lead, mold, educate and sometimes even anger public opinion.
     This means greater coverage and analysis of international news--for it is no longer far away and foreign but close at hand and local. It means greater attention to improved understanding of the news as well as improved transmission. And it means, finally, that government at all levels, must meet its obligation to provide you with the fullest possible information outside the narrowest limits of national security--and we intend to do it.
III
     It was early in the Seventeenth Century that Francis Bacon remarked on three recent inventions already transforming the world: the compass, gunpowder and the printing press. Now the links between the nations first forged by the compass have made us all citizens of the world, the hopes and threats of one becoming the hopes and threats of us all. In that one world's efforts to live together, the evolution of gunpowder to its ultimate limit has warned mankind of the terrible consequences of failure.
     And so it is to the printing press--to the recorder of man's deeds, the keeper of his conscience, the courier of his news--that we look for strength and assistance, confident that with your help man will be what he was born to be: free and independent.





MistressEnoha -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 3:23:51 PM)

If there where bombs located in the basement of the WTC. THen where are the clouds dust and chuncks of concrete coming UP  as the WTC came down...... I have yet to see that cloud moving anywhere. And considering that a blast int eh bacement would have forced its was through the path of least resistance ( As the laws of physics would state.) Then we would have seen atleast the building rock from teh basement explosion...which also wasnt seen......Hmmmm..


Also on a side point. Why would the gonvernment (or the all mighty THEY) want to bring down the buildings? There isnt a plausable reason for it.




SirKenin -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 3:29:46 PM)

Check out the whole movie.  It completely trashes, point by point, every single argument that these conspiracy idiots come out with, in a very matter of fact way.  Every single one.  It is a great movie, but it is really long.  2 1/2 hours.




farglebargle -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 3:37:13 PM)

Who the fuck really cares? It's clear that we have MORE THAN ENOUGH to INDICT the entire Bush Administration for violating 18 USC 371, so what's the point arguing about this bullshit?





curiousexplorer -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 3:47:44 PM)

Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do!  We do!

Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do!  We do!

Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do!  We do!

Who robs cavefish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do!  We do!




Real0ne -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 4:47:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Check out the whole movie.  It completely trashes, point by point, every single argument that these conspiracy idiots come out with, in a very matter of fact way.  Every single one.  It is a great movie, but it is really long.  2 1/2 hours.



give me a break, from what i have seen so far,  which is about 1/2 it is an insult to a persons intelligence.   This dood is worse than lucky for obfuscation and hyperole, and most of it is captioned with smart remarks rather than sowing "anything" that is to the contrary.   Just like going over this with lucky, it is designed to "sneer" at those people who are trying to get to the bottom of it to give everyone the impression it is not worth going into any deeper.

Those kids that did the initial movie,  i do not agree with all their stuff either, and this guy even put a clip from alex jones in there where alex denuked a moron too.   Alex is the biggest conspiracy watcher in the world, seems funny they would debunk with him LOL but iot does show that the truth movement is more concerned with getting to the bottom of it rather just hyperbole and nah nah neerner neener name calling.

The kids that did that movie made a few fuckups so this guy tries to use that to throw everything in the garbage.

if you give it a critical watch and provided you have done some serious reseach on it i really doubt you would conclude "it is a great movie" in light of what is to be found on 911 review and other more sites that have studied it in more depth.




SirKenin -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 4:48:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Who the fuck really cares? It's clear that we have MORE THAN ENOUGH to INDICT the entire Bush Administration for violating 18 USC 371, so what's the point arguing about this bullshit?




According to the bullshit that goes on in this forum, there is *every* point..  Until, of course, you are proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Then you twist everything that was said, introduce straw men, tell the author that they really said something other than what they really said, come up with utter stupidity..... And then change the subject.


BUT BUSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Real0ne -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 4:54:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressEnoha

If there where bombs located in the basement of the WTC. THen where are the clouds dust and chuncks of concrete coming UP  as the WTC came down...... I have yet to see that cloud moving anywhere. And considering that a blast int eh bacement would have forced its was through the path of least resistance ( As the laws of physics would state.) Then we would have seen atleast the building rock from teh basement explosion...which also wasnt seen......Hmmmm..


Also on a side point. Why would the gonvernment (or the all mighty THEY) want to bring down the buildings? There isnt a plausable reason for it.


yeh they didnt include the firement that said that the elevators blew off their hinges from "below"  LOL   Neither did we see any soot where in the sooted lobby from the intense heat and explosion from the fuel that came down the elevator shaft.  LOL   take a look its preistine just all blown to hell.

completely trashed point by point yeh right. LOL  If you arent paying attention maybe LOL




Real0ne -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 4:56:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Who the fuck really cares? It's clear that we have MORE THAN ENOUGH to INDICT the entire Bush Administration for violating 18 USC 371, so what's the point arguing about this bullshit?




According to the bullshit that goes on in this forum, there is *every* point..  Until, of course, you are proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Then you twist everything that was said, introduce straw men, tell the author that they really said something other than what they really said, come up with utter stupidity..... And then change the subject.


BUT BUSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


you mean like bush admitting that he saw the first plane hit when the tape was released for the first time on sep 12th?  that kind of straw man?  LOL




Real0ne -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 5:02:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I figure we will go the same road that all the conspiracy theorist wankers walk down.



so which road did conspiracy wanker jkf go down?  i am still waiting for an explanation on that one, and he is not talking about just any conspiracy he is talking about the illuminati and their plans of "world domination" so he has to be considered the biggest conspiracy wanker of us all right?

i mean you and ky and sanity marc lucky and several others all got a great laugh out of my illuminati and secret government posts and scorned the idea of it....


i put that movie on hold i will get carpal tunnel from trying snap it as fast as they fling that shit through because i actually research this stuff, anyway i will watch the rest later cuz i am hungry and gonna make myself some munchies




Tuomas -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 8:42:44 PM)

I'm an arson investigator, and no, I did not look at the WTC. However, from my experience, there are all kinds of "thories" in these kinds of catastrophes for the simple reason that most people don't know what they are talking about. And their ignornace -supported by a bunch of people vigorously agreeing out of their own ignorance- leads them to believe things. Any things. It just has to appear plausible, and people will buy it.

Even in my own low-profile, unremarkable cases there have been conspiracy theories. Do you know how many times I, personally, have been accused of "covering up the truth" by these theorists? How many people who have argued with me that my expert conclusions were fallacious? Of course in an event as large as the WTC, there will be quite a few more people coming out of the woodwork yelling conspiracy.

And here's the thing: the official version rarely, if ever, is what we might call "the truth". Any official investigation collects as much facts possible, and reaches the best technical, rational and scientific conclusion. However, the official version excludes large portions of evidence that are not central to the investigation. This evidence then goes unexplained, fueling all the nut-jobs and their "conspiracy" theories.

Quite frankly, I expect the WTC conspiracy theories will never really go away. There will always be "plausable" alternate theories, plus theories that take into consideration only certain portions of the evidence, or theories that explore other angles. Since none of you are demolitons experts, or civil construction engineers, or avionics technicians... there is no way you can "prove" or "disprove" what anyone says in a conspiracy theory video.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 9:16:10 PM)

Here is a question to all the 9/11 wackos...

Do you think the "sainted and revered" FDR let Pearl Harbor happen????




selfbnd411 -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 9:28:26 PM)

Conspiracy theories are fun for two reasons:

1. It's human to assign greater significance to great events.  How scary is it that a goofball misfit like Lee Harvey Oswald could kill someone as important as the President of the United States?  It couldn't be...there has to be an explanation that matches the significance of the event.  (credit: William Manchester)

2. It's completely impossible to ever disprove a conspiracy theory.  If there's no evidence to support the theory, well obviously that's because the conspiracy got there first.  If the facts are the complete opposite of the conspiracy theory, well...that's what the conspiracy wants you to believe.  You can make just about any outlandish claim and never be "proven wrong!"




Real0ne -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 9:33:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuomas

I'm an arson investigator, and no, I did not look at the WTC. However, from my experience, there are all kinds of "thories" in these kinds of catastrophes for the simple reason that most people don't know what they are talking about. And their ignornace -supported by a bunch of people vigorously agreeing out of their own ignorance- leads them to believe things. Any things. It just has to appear plausible, and people will buy it.

Even in my own low-profile, unremarkable cases there have been conspiracy theories. Do you know how many times I, personally, have been accused of "covering up the truth" by these theorists? How many people who have argued with me that my expert conclusions were fallacious? Of course in an event as large as the WTC, there will be quite a few more people coming out of the woodwork yelling conspiracy.

And here's the thing: the official version rarely, if ever, is what we might call "the truth". Any official investigation collects as much facts possible, and reaches the best technical, rational and scientific conclusion. However, the official version excludes large portions of evidence that are not central to the investigation. This evidence then goes unexplained, fueling all the nut-jobs and their "conspiracy" theories.

Quite frankly, I expect the WTC conspiracy theories will never really go away. There will always be "plausable" alternate theories, plus theories that take into consideration only certain portions of the evidence, or theories that explore other angles. Since none of you are demolitons experts, or civil construction engineers, or avionics technicians... there is no way you can "prove" or "disprove" what anyone says in a conspiracy theory video.



You know there are many cases that i would agree with you.   Often people claim conspiracy for what they do not know or put it all on god.

This is not the case with wtc.   There are mounds of data that wreak in conspiracy, you should take a moment to "seriously" look at all the evidence and only then will you understand why people are risking their jobs and reputations over getting the word out against the "official" story.  That and if you do not examine all the evidence in a case because you feel it is not pertinant then you cannot really blame those who know the implications of the data you chose to ignore.

Ignoring that bombs went off in the wtc buildings or ignoring that building 7 was the most obvious case of controlled demonilition they may as well have put a sign up that said controlled demolition in progress, and then larry silverstein admitting they pulled it i mean what more do we need after being hit in the head with that 2x4?

The real problem is the other side of the scale that woudl let the murder of 2800 people pass without justice!   Dont forget, FEMA the federal emergency management team flew into new york on the 10th "so they would be ready to go inot action the next day".  that was a quote btw and although what you say is true, and i can agree that there are conspiracy kooks out there but equally bad, err wait no worse is the "non-conspiracy kooks".  The worst case with a conspiracy kook is there is a little extra money spent on investigation, and the worst thing about nonconspiracy kooks is they let the "real" terrorists get away with it so they can do it again.   So which side of the fence would you prefer to err on?   personally i chose to err on the side of justice and spend an extra nickel.

Hell thius fucking government spent 400 million on clinton getting his dick sucked and what maybe 20 million on the whole of the wtc investigation.   it shows where are priorities are and fucked up the people of this country are for letting it go down this way.






Real0ne -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 9:52:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Here is a question to all the 9/11 wackos...

Do you think the "sainted and revered" FDR let Pearl Harbor happen????


Here is a question for all you nonconspiracy wacko!

Do you think a bullet can zigzag?


errr let me think really hard on that one...  err no he didnt and i know this because the attack date was printed in which one.....,hmmmm, new york times the week prior.  LMFAO




Real0ne -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 9:58:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Conspiracy theories are fun for two reasons:

1. It's human to assign greater significance to great events.  How scary is it that a goofball misfit like Lee Harvey Oswald could kill someone as important as the President of the United States?  It couldn't be...there has to be an explanation that matches the significance of the event.  (credit: William Manchester)

2. It's completely impossible to ever disprove a conspiracy theory.  If there's no evidence to support the theory, well obviously that's because the conspiracy got there first.  If the facts are the complete opposite of the conspiracy theory, well...that's what the conspiracy wants you to believe.  You can make just about any outlandish claim and never be "proven wrong!"




yeh untill you find out that 1/2 of the terrorists that you claim are part of the "official" conspiracy theory are alive and you have to fly over there to apologize and buy them off for ruining their reputations!  LMFAO




Tuomas -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 10:00:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

You know there are many cases that i would agree with you.   Often people claim conspiracy for what they do not know or put it all on god.

This is not the case with wtc.   There are mounds of data that wreak in conspiracy, you should take a moment to "seriously" look at all the evidence and only then will you understand why people are risking their jobs and reputations over getting the word out against the "official" story.  That and if you do not examine all the evidence in a case because you feel it is not pertinant then you cannot really blame those who know the implications of the data you chose to ignore.

Ignoring that bombs went off in the wtc buildings or ignoring that building 7 was the most obvious case of controlled demonilition they may as well have put a sign up that said controlled demolition in progress, and then larry silverstein admitting they pulled it i mean what more do we need after being hit in the head with that 2x4?

The real problem is the other side of the scale that woudl let the murder of 2800 people pass without justice!   Dont forget, FEMA the federal emergency management team flew into new york on the 10th "so they would be ready to go inot action the next day".  that was a quote btw and although what you say is true, and i can agree that there are conspiracy kooks out there but equally bad, err wait no worse is the "non-conspiracy kooks".  The worst case with a conspiracy kook is there is a little extra money spent on investigation, and the worst thing about nonconspiracy kooks is they let the "real" terrorists get away with it so they can do it again.   So which side of the fence would you prefer to err on?   personally i chose to err on the side of justice and spend an extra nickel.

Hell thius fucking government spent 400 million on clinton getting his dick sucked and what maybe 20 million on the whole of the wtc investigation.   it shows where are priorities are and fucked up the people of this country are for letting it go down this way.




In other words, "you are either with me or against me". Some things do reek to the High Heavens, and I believe I've already said that. The investigation pinpoints a cause; it doesn't explain every weird thing that happened that day. See? In fact, this was rather my point. There is so much information on the WTC available, that without on-the-ground, empirical anlysis, there is no way that you can reach a conclsion based on circumstancial speculation. This information may be collected and compiled into so many different arrays that there will inevitably be conspiracy theories with plausible conclusions.

That's all you -or any other theorist- has: plausability.

I'm not saying there isn't a conspiracy, just that unless I have access to the actual post-event site, run my own grid, and compile the physical evidence available, I will not be able to qualify any alternate theory. Is there a plausible alternate theory? Definately. Could it be true? Certainly. Is it? I don't know. And because I don't know, I'm not going start "believing" anything just because it's plausible.

Which brings me back to my original point: the investigation focused on the cause of the tragedy -namely, hijacked planes flying to buildings- and not what other subterfuge was going on the city that got messed up in the event. 9/11 was just one iternerary in a long chain of events, which the investigation did not touch upon, and they had no reason to do so.

Personally, I think it's healthy to debate the catastrophe, reanalize it and derive different conclusions. I just think that people need to be careful not to confuse plausability with fact.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: WTC BS conspiracy theories totally trashed. (5/19/2007 10:00:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Here is a question for all you nonconspiracy wacko!

Do you think a bullet can zigzag?



Of course they can.

Even the newest of ballistic students know they can.




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