RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

MsParados -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/21/2007 6:07:13 PM)

still not understanding how deferment is a nasty lil word.... ultimitely you are submitting to the experience of another, please see in context of your thread in switching.....



WhiplashSmile -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/21/2007 6:23:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

still not understanding how deferment is a nasty lil word.... ultimitely you are submitting to the experience of another, please see in context of your thread in switching.....


Ok, let's say I locate somebody in the yellow pages and I hire their skilled services in Therapeutic massage.  I am not  submitting to them.   This is not Submission as it's known in a D/s relationship.  Where a submissive submit to a Dom.  The act of submission is not involved nor required at all.   It just simply means you entrust somebody who is skilled in doing something to do it for you.   For instance let's say the water pipes break in the house, do you call a plumber or do it yourself.   Does not require submission at all to get your pipes fixed.   Do you see the difference between submission and Deferment? 

How can it considered that I am being submissive when I am having somebody do something for me?  What ever power I have given then has been through deferment and not submission.   If I don't like what the other person is doing, I will request for them to do something different or better.  If they do not live up to my expectation, I'm still in power to get rid other their ass.. or stop using their services.   In the case of a D/s relationship, provide and give additional training to the sub/slave. LOL... 



MsParados -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/21/2007 6:26:26 PM)

yes w/o out doubt but how is it a nasty lil word???? or was the use of the word nasty just for effect....
add: although taken into context of all you have said, you would be bottoming to the plumber lol which we can agree is indeed diferent then submission.

to many mixed metaphors between D/s and vanilla.



Yanna -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/21/2007 7:42:15 PM)

I agree with your comments as well.  I only wish CM gave topping and bottoming as a choice as to a person's orientation.



SireKane -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/21/2007 8:29:58 PM)

Yanna, excellant idea, but most men who are tops would not use such a designation. The majority of submissive women I know want a dominant man, not a top.  I cannot remember ever coming across any submissive women profiles which state that they are looking for a male tops. Try to find dominant male profile which states that he bottoms. It's a good idea, but I think not enough people would be honest about themselves. Good luck.

Kane



Wildnfreehrt2004 -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/21/2007 8:32:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireKane

I belong to a couple of dominant male organizations. I know hundreds of real life dominant men. I don't know of any dominant men or masters who enjoy the sensation received from bottoming. I've hosted hundreds of  bdsm events.  I've never seen a man who identifies as a dominant or master, bottoming or submitting. Being on the receiving end of a paddle, crop , whip, flogger, ect... is a turn off for those dominant men I know. This thread always generates a lot of postings in online chatrooms and message boards, but in my  real life bdsm I've seen no such practice.

Kane


and thank God for that too!!

Wildy



SireKane -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/21/2007 9:20:20 PM)

WhiplashSmile,

I did'nt mean for you to take most post so personal, but so be it. For the record. If I were to see you bent over a play horse and getting your ass paddled, flogged ,cropped or singletailed  I'd assume that you were a submissive guy.  There is no visable distinction between bottoming and submitting,. You say you top from the bottom. Submissive females top from the bottom. You state that you decide what gets done to you. Submissive females negotiate what gets done to them also.  You say If you are not satisfied with what they are doing you can "Get rid of their ass" A submissive  female can do the same by simply executing her safe word. You say you are in "control" A submissive  through negotiation and her safe word is in control also. The difference between bottoming and submitting is the internal processing. Nobody can read hearts and minds. I have been brought into numerous instances where a submissive male, proclaims he is dominant to a submissive female. As the relationship moves forward her "dom" orders her to top him. It eventually progresses to the point where she no longer physically submits to him and is exclusively topping him. That is my experience with this whole dominant male who bottoms thing. You evidently are the exception to the rule. Congratulations.



defiantbadgirl -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/21/2007 11:23:28 PM)

This is how I feel about the idea of switching. I can switch but list myself as a sub because I don't have a fettish for ordering men to do same sex acts like so many male subs seem to want. I like spanking men and playing with their buns. Guess I have a fettish for male buns. I like having the same thing done to me. As for power exchange, I prefer to submit unless the man does something very wrong. When it comes to punishment, I feel like both parties should accept it if they mess up. I actually prefer this to be with the same partner. Everyone has their own ideas on what works for them.



WhiplashSmile -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/22/2007 3:24:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireKane

WhiplashSmile,

I did'nt mean for you to take most post so personal, but so be it. For the record. If I were to see you bent over a play horse and getting your ass paddled, flogged ,cropped or singletailed  I'd assume that you were a submissive guy.  There is no visable distinction between bottoming and submitting,. You say you top from the bottom. Submissive females top from the bottom. You state that you decide what gets done to you. Submissive females negotiate what gets done to them also.  You say If you are not satisfied with what they are doing you can "Get rid of their ass" A submissive  female can do the same by simply executing her safe word. You say you are in "control" A submissive  through negotiation and her safe word is in control also. The difference between bottoming and submitting is the internal processing. Nobody can read hearts and minds. I have been brought into numerous instances where a submissive male, proclaims he is dominant to a submissive female. As the relationship moves forward her "dom" orders her to top him. It eventually progresses to the point where she no longer physically submits to him and is exclusively topping him. That is my experience with this whole dominant male who bottoms thing. You evidently are the exception to the rule. Congratulations.


SirKane,

There are way too many activities I enjoy topping in my dominant role.  I had three experiences in the past where I tried/attempted to be a submissive bottom. It makes me cringe in thought.  Needless to say, I'm not submissive nor a true switch that will take a turn at playing submissive.   

I had one relationship with a Domme and it did not make me melt away into the land of submission.  You know that often overly romanticized state of seeing rainbows, unicorns and walking in fields tall flowing grass. Submission was not an option for either of us because it would have ruined a lot of aspects we enjoyed in the relationship.  I was not a submissive in a D/D relationship, the idea of spinning a D/s relationship around 180 degress in the opposite direction is absurb in my mind.   

There are different perspectives/views rooted in Old Guard, Gorean and other schools of thought regarding what a real Dom or Master should be.  It's evident some of your experiences/views and mine are different and conflict with each other.

For the record I have to disagree with you regarding "Submissive females topping from the bottom" and disagree with you on "Submissive females negotiate what gets done to them also" and even more strongly disagree in Mater/Slave relationships. 

So you basically believe a slave tops their Master from the bottom during scene play and negoticates what gets done to them even though this is a TPE based relationship? WOW...  

From my experience most submissives/slaves tend to dislike using the safeword, because they view it as a sign of weakness or failure on their part.  Submissives don't use the safeword to control a scene.  Again this is an example of where your experience/views conflict with mine.

I don't consider using a "hault" command to be anything like the safewood.  Hell, I might have a sub/slave hault what they are doing, to have them change to a different flogger or perhaps towel off my forehead or whatever else.  I might have simply had enough bottoming experience to bring me pleasure and simply want to move onto some other activity.  Just because I am haulting a scene does not mean my pain tolerence or some limit has been reached.  This is not like using a Safeword at all.  Wow... there's a big difference between using a hault command and safewords.  One is for control purposes and the other is in event of emergency or crisis is happening during scene play. 

I don't know what kind of submissives/slaves you've been playing with, the ones I've played with don't attempt to top from the bottom, let alone think about using the safeword as a means to top from the bottom.

Regarding your response in general, I believe it carries the underlying theme of doms who like to bottom at times are really submissives in disquise.  With the additional theme that this will undermine a D/s relationship itself as a rule of thumb.  

I believe that any Dom/me prescribing to this train of thought, will become paranoid being misunderstood and branded as a submissive.  To the pont they deny themselves of taking pleasure some activities they enjoy. 

Any submissive or slave worth a damn seeks to please their Dom/me.  Any Dom/me worth a damn should be able to help their submissive get past any mental road blocks.  This is all part of what a D/s relationship is all about anyways, is it not?  

For the record I don't believe I'm an exception to a rule regarding Dom that enjoy being the bottom of a few activities.  There is no reason why a D/s relationship should fall apart at the seams over this.  I could see this happening if a Dom insists upon being the bottom all time or even most of the time.  I am a Dom that tops most of the time and bottoms on occasion. I still don't consider myself as some twisted exception to some rule.   In terms of my D/D relationship it was about a 50/50 exchange kept on equal footing and the scene play was rather different compared to D/s scene play.  I honesty say there were exceptions, but the exceptions might not be what many people would expect coming from a D/s mindset. 

Just because I'm part of the "SadoMaso Dom club" does not mean I'm going to be joining "SadoMaso Sissy Boy Slave club"  at any point in my life.  Again, I don't believe for one minute I'm some exception to some rule.  

Also for the record if I ever had a submissive/slave flog me in a public dungeon, it would be clear and obvious who was the submissive and the Dom in the scene.  I'm certain there people on this site that have been to dungeons to have witnessed a sub/slave flogging their Master/Mistress and it was clear to them who was who. 

In regards to visable distinctions during a public scene, you'd probally hear the top refer to me as "Sir" or "Master".  Also, I'm very vocal about WTF is going on during a scene.  Plus she'd probally be wearing a play collar or collar (another clue).  I would probally be in a upright position such as being on St. Andrews Cross as opposed to being bent over on a horse.  There would be way too many indicators in terms of WTF was going on.  You'd probally have to be deaf , dumb and blind not catch on about it.   

If anybody saw me getting flogged and assumed I was submissive, so be it.  I tend to not let stereotyping or mindless peer pressure stand in the way of things.  Besides it's always fun to blow people's mind from time to time by not following along with the clicky trendy expected things.   You know;  Doms are supposed to always top, submissives are always supposed to bottom,  Only Doms can be Sadistic,  Only Submissives can be Masochists, and only good dogs get to go to heaven type of stuff. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah... Stereotyping.



WhiplashSmile -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/22/2007 4:34:04 AM)

Whooops.. did not intend to add another post and there's no delete option.



darkinshadows -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/22/2007 4:49:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireKane

Yanna, excellant idea, but most men who are tops would not use such a designation. The majority of submissive women I know want a dominant man, not a top.  I cannot remember ever coming across any submissive women profiles which state that they are looking for a male tops. Try to find dominant male profile which states that he bottoms. It's a good idea, but I think not enough people would be honest about themselves. Good luck.

Kane

One reason I would suggest it isn't asked for on CM (in particular) is because Top/bottoming isnt a preference mentioned.  Humans can be extremely lazy and it takes alot of encouragement for someone to actually expound on a profile.  But in recent times, I can say that people looking for tops and bottoms are becomming more and more prevelent on profiles - we can only hope the powers that be on CM note that and add it to their options sooner rather than later.  In the whole scheme of things, the recognition of top/bottom is only a recently acceptable term.  My profile quite obviously states I am a submissive top - so there is one profile you can go look at if you like and there are many others around.
 
Peace



darkinshadows -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/22/2007 5:15:40 AM)

quote:

Well, THAT is exactly what I believe LA has been saying.........and exactly the part with which I'm having trouble!
 
 
Some people are better and more productive or more experienced in certain roles than others.
Switches are no different.  They simply express their productivity as it happens (so to speak).
 
Trying to use an example and I hope this can make sense -
For some s-types, for example, even the cooking is the dominants law.  They will dictate ingredients, menus, plans - but it is still the dominants law.  And even if the dominant cannot cook at all and has no concept of food and places all that into the s-types hands, it is still under his domain.  Whereas, switches simply take the best of each other in the natural flow of things and it isn't under the domain of a single entity.  This is where it isn't just a bedroom thing.
 
And remember - these next two statements are kind of general but trying to explain from my own experience -
Switches take the best and most productive of each other and combine it into a healthy relationship.
D/s relationships (even if that combines submissive tops and dominant bottoms) take the best and most productive of each other and use it as the s-type deferes and the dominant specifies and combines it into a healthy relationship.
 
Peace



SunNMoon -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/22/2007 2:29:47 PM)

Thank you darkinshadows for stating my thoughts so far better then I could. [:)] I’m a switch that needs to be in a switch/switch relationship. For me it just a fluid dance you can feel that power changing hands but it just feels so very natural.



quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

Well, THAT is exactly what I believe LA has been saying.........and exactly the part with which I'm having trouble!
 
 
Some people are better and more productive or more experienced in certain roles than others.
Switches are no different.  They simply express their productivity as it happens (so to speak).
 
Trying to use an example and I hope this can make sense -
For some s-types, for example, even the cooking is the dominants law.  They will dictate ingredients, menus, plans - but it is still the dominants law.  And even if the dominant cannot cook at all and has no concept of food and places all that into the s-types hands, it is still under his domain.  Whereas, switches simply take the best of each other in the natural flow of things and it isn't under the domain of a single entity.  This is where it isn't just a bedroom thing.
 
And remember - these next two statements are kind of general but trying to explain from my own experience -
Switches take the best and most productive of each other and combine it into a healthy relationship.
D/s relationships (even if that combines submissive tops and dominant bottoms) take the best and most productive of each other and use it as the s-type deferes and the dominant specifies and combines it into a healthy relationship.
 
Peace



Sirandlittle1 -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/22/2007 6:54:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireKane

I belong to a couple of dominant male organizations. I know hundreds of real life dominant men. I don't know of any dominant men or masters who enjoy the sensation received from bottoming. I've hosted hundreds of  bdsm events.  I've never seen a man who identifies as a dominant or master, bottoming or submitting. Being on the receiving end of a paddle, crop , whip, flogger, ect... is a turn off for those dominant men I know. This thread always generates a lot of postings in online chatrooms and message boards, but in my  real life bdsm I've seen no such practice.

Kane


And when you put your Domme female out there, watch these very same men subject themselves. There are many Dom's i have spoken with, who gave me this line. No, NEVER. Yet, turn up as a top, and your contacted, discreetly of course! To assist them with their needs.
If the bottom, sub, slave, has a safe word, he/she has control. Always.

TPE, is not just for christmas, its for the time you wish it to continue. Be you sub, bottom, slave.
Could you possibly entertain the idea SireKane, that what people say in public, to their peers, is not necessarily the same as behind closed doors?
little1



LadyPaige -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/22/2007 11:53:53 PM)

Everyone has their own definition of what submissive, switch or dominate is.  Whatever YOUR definition, I'd say that the difference is that a bottom/top is a scene position.  I'm not into whips, so if my submissive were interested in exploring being whipped, I would ask someone else to top him.  My submissive would be bottom, but would not be the top's submissive.  A submissive with the needed skills could also act as top, but that would not make him a Dominant.



Bearlee -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/23/2007 1:16:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireKane
...
A dominant man is not equally comfortable being a submissive man.  Your friend is a submissive man who is going to play any role that you are comfortable with until he is sure that you are emotionally invested in him. When he is confident that you are bonded emotionally, he's going to reveal to you that he is truly submissive man. He'll be banking that the emotional bond that you have established with him will keep you in the relationship. This is a commom ruse. Buyer beware. 


Ya know, kane; comments like that would be a lot like my saying that a guy all dressed in leathers standing next to a chain on the wall...holding a paint-stick... is obviously NO dominant.
 
Ya just cannot make sweeping statements like that!  You are obviously hanging around with the wrong kind of people…or a limited number of them.  There ARE many, many Dominant men and women who enjoy some degree of pain, and so, occasionally bottom. 
 
To make the statement that there is little difference between submission and bottoming shows a serious lack of both information and experience. 
 
You might wanna read some stuff…you are seriously in the minority here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
...
He likes pain, hell he'll hurt himself if no one else is around the S and the M are both part of him but he would never bottom, not even if his life depended on it.
...
If a Dom liked getting peed on, I wouldn't think that would make him a switch, just a Dom that has a fetish for watersports. 

 
MsP…I would say the same to you; to hold what your man does as the be-all, end-all by which to measure everybody else is ludicrous.  I know plenty of Dominant people who enjoy pain…and enjoy others administering to their needs from time to time. 
 
Bottoming has nothing to do with submission.
 
And…I couldn’t agree more about the watersports!  Same goes for anal sex…but I suspect that is yet another argument!  LOL
 
B



Bearlee -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/23/2007 1:22:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

Kane, while agree with you about Dominant/Masters submitting.  I strongly disagree about bottoming.  While I enjoy being the top most of the time.  I love being the bottom, provided I am in control of topping from the bottom at any moment in the scene or through out the whole damn thing. 
...
It really makes no difference how many dom/masters you or anybody knows that don't bottom. 
...
Just because I'm a bit Maso and the majority of doms are not, does not mean I'm any less dom. 
...
Just because I enjoy some of these things does not magically transform me into a submissive or anything less than Dom. 
...
I know what I like and what pleasese me, it's that simple.  I really could care less if the person flogging me is getting a rush of enjoyment out of it or not.  If they enjoy it, then so much the better of a time it is.  Any submissive should enjoy the fact she if bringing me pleasure, and any Domme/sadist should find enjoyment if they find pleasure in inflicting pain. 


BRAVO!  Well said!
 
B



Bearlee -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/23/2007 2:41:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass

…
The best way I can relate to this issue personally is that because I am a female dom, my preferred sexual position sometimes involves my boyfriend bottom being "on top" in the literal sense.  He may at that time be controlling the action, topping so to speak, but I am still in control - I choose when we do that and when we don't. 

On the other hand, I can be somewhat masochistic and enjoy being flogged sometimes but that is not something I have *him* do because I think it would mess with his head too much. it just wouldn't feel right to him to flog his Daddy, even if I enjoy it as much as I enjoy the him-on-top sex.  Better all around to find a good top who flogs the way I like. So it's not always black and white.


Yes, I agree completely about the Dom/Top thing… again, I’d say stuff like ‘who’s on top’ has little to do with BDSM.  LOL
 
With the second paragraph…  It seems you are much like me and cannot ‘switch’ with the same person.  But many do…which is of course the purpose of my original questions.  I would like to get my head around that whole concept…
 
Thank you for your contribution…
B



Bearlee -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/23/2007 3:39:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

FukinTroll was responsible for my own enlightment to using this word.  see this post.
http://www.collarchat.com/m_859431/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#860358
I had been in the process of trying to Analyze a past relationship I had with a Domme.  Because D/s dynamics simply did not apply at all to this relationship.  There was simply no submission involved.  I made a couple of posts to this same thread.

I've been trying to bite my tounge on this thread and keep things in the D/s framework.  However, still applies to D/D.  If anything we switched between top/bottom in play, however we never pushed for submission nor expected it.  Just about thing we did brough pleasure to the both of us at the same time.  We never expected or demanded the other do anything the other did not want nor like or enjoy doing.  Actually as ironic as this will sound, both her and I managed to get past a few of our own limits.  Everybody likes to talk about how much two people can grow together in a D/s relationship, same thing applies in D/D.

Actually we both appreciated and valued each others Domly nature. Neither one of us pushed for submission. 


Whip...I just wanted to say that, while I do not understand how this word applies in this instance...I really enjoyed reading your discription of your past relationship.
 
I can easily see 'switching' between D/s and T/b...that makes perfect sense to me.  I am learning it may be more...that SOME people CAN switch between D and s, and s and D...  I think that's awesome.
 
THAT is the kind of stuff I'd hoped to talk about
 
As you know hawkwolf7 added a post to your other thread.  I’d like to include it here too, because I think it adds yet another perspective:

quote:

ORIGINAL: hawkwolf7

Hey WhipLash,

A little perspective might help with the confusion...

In an S&M relationship, a switch will either bottom or top.

In a Bondage relationship, a switch will both throw the rope (typically also called the top) or catch the rope (also called bottom).

In a Discipline relationship, a switch will be the punisher (also called the top) or receiver (also called the bottom).

In a D/s relationship, a switch will either dom or sub, and since D/s can, and often does, occur outside of a scene, top and bottom are not really appropriate labels. Nonetheless, a significant number of people can switch D/s roles. More can switch outside a single relationship, but there are some who can switch inside the same relationship. (I've seen cases where they will toss a coin to see who gets the Dom/sub role that day.) This kind of switching seems to work best when the D/s falls into the "transfer of authority" category, and/or the submission is primarily service oriented.

While for some, a Dom or sub personality is "natural", and they cannot switch, there are some who are lucky enough to be able live both sides. 


Funny, huh?  He apparently feels polar opposite to LA, who felt ‘transfer of authority’ would probably not be in place if switching with the same person were to work!
 
LOL… we are all such diverse creatures, huh?  I’m gonna quit worrying about it.  Seems to me it’s all just an individual thing… and that’s not a bad thing, either!



Elorin -> RE: D/s and TPE..........and switching? (5/23/2007 11:02:40 PM)

Bearlee dear...
I skimmed the thread, and would like to read it at length later (and maybe even comment!) but don't have the time now, so I'm posting so I can find it easier. ~laughs~
I did want to say, I don't know if this was covered earlier or not so here is my definition.
Someone who both bottoms and tops by choice, actively seeking out each role at different times, is a switch.
Someone who both submits and dominates by choice, actively seeking out each role at different times, is a switch.
The problem is that we use one word to be mean both things.
For me, it is no problem. I'm a switch. I like to use canes on people (top), I like to be lit on fire (bottom), I like to be pierced (bottom) and to pierce others (top). I have a slave (domme) and my partner M who is my dom (sub) and a prospective female submissive (domme). I switch both ways. I do not switch dom/sub in the same relationship, however.

And I will reserve any further thoughts for a time when I've read the entirety of the thread.

~E



Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
4.736328E-02