Training End Game

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thisday -> Training End Game (5/21/2007 7:41:56 PM)
Hi :) I'm a newbie...in my first relationship with a Master who has some experience. I'm trying to take in so much right now that a lot of it is a little confusing. Especially his idea of 'true submission'. I just don't understand and am having trouble picturing it. Quoting Master, "when the submission becomes such a big part of your identity and your emotional wellbeing, you will be able to surrender to true submission - not relying on trust and not caring whether or not i hurt you, just so long as you are submitting" Can anyone else describe this state in a different way to help me picture it? Right now I feel like I'm submitting completely...I'd like to know what changes to look for to know that I'm on the right track. Also any tips for getting there would be great. Thank you :)

LadyAnnabelleLee -> RE: Training End Game (5/21/2007 7:48:31 PM)
Sounds like cock and bull to me, but I'm off like that. Honestly, if you feel you're doing properly and your Sir hasn't said anything otherwise assume you're doing well. If not, ask and if he knows his way about subs he'll guide you.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Training End Game (5/21/2007 8:04:43 PM)
That's like saying I don't care if I'm drinking vanilla extract as long as I know it's alcohol. Doesn't sound healthy to me. However, what he might be saying is that when the relationship is right and the match has been made well, you will feel comfortable to the core with simply obey what he tells you BECAUSE you trust and BECAUSE you trust he won't hurt you. Master Fire

mercurialis -> RE: Training End Game (5/21/2007 8:05:40 PM)
Ah, I feel a bit of a red flag here. This could be different for other people, but personally....BDSM is just part of me. Part, not all, not my identity. Here's the quote: "when the submission becomes such a big part of your identity and your emotional wellbeing, you will be able to surrender to true submission - not relying on trust and not caring whether or not i hurt you, just so long as you are submitting" And here's what I feel is mistaken with it. It sounds like he is trying to rework your personal identity. My personal identity is, I'm me. I don't identity myself as, "I'm a submissive." Nor does my emotional wellbeing depend on my submissive side. And my submission is based completely on my trust in a person...if a person starts to push the right buttons to make me feel submissive on purpose and they aren't a trusted friend, I feel backed into a corner and start to downright attack the person. Not caring if you get hurt? Um, well, I guess maybe some slaves could feel that way, but I care deeply about if I get hurt physically or emotionally, especially if I'm playing in a way that could be dangerous in the wrong hands. Yikes....I ended up realizing I have a problem with everything he said! It sounds like this "true submission" is just a nice way of saying making you into a passive submissive who will do anything he tells you to. I would have a serious conversation with him if you feel the same way, trying to figure out better both people's thoughts. To add a bit more...I don't like words like "true submission." The fact you already see yourself as submitting means you are, it's not like you need to be pushed to go farther. I'm a sub, I'm submitting to you, I'm doing what you would like me to do to the extent I'm comfortable...how is that not truly submitting? If a dom doesn't like what I bring to them as a sub, then we must not match up well enough to play. It's not like you can completely change a person. Edit: And yay for other's opinions...several people have pointed out that his meaning could be much different. You two should probably talk more about what he means.

dawntreader -> RE: Training End Game (5/21/2007 8:06:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thisday Quoting Master, "when the submission becomes such a big part of your identity and your emotional wellbeing, you will be able to surrender to true submission - not relying on trust and not caring whether or not i hurt you, just so long as you are submitting" Greetings thisday, Surrender is a journey that will happen at your own pace. If it is your desire for this to happen it will but it comes with time and experience and most importantly - getting to know yourself. Enjoy your journey, every uncertain minute of it...you will never be at this stage again ~

mistoferin -> RE: Training End Game (5/21/2007 8:15:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thisday Hi :) I'm a newbie...in my first relationship with a Master who has some experience. I'm trying to take in so much right now that a lot of it is a little confusing. Especially his idea of 'true submission'. I just don't understand and am having trouble picturing it. Quoting Master, "when the submission becomes such a big part of your identity and your emotional wellbeing, you will be able to surrender to true submission - not relying on trust and not caring whether or not i hurt you, just so long as you are submitting" Can anyone else describe this state in a different way to help me picture it? Right now I feel like I'm submitting completely...I'd like to know what changes to look for to know that I'm on the right track. Also any tips for getting there would be great. Thank you :) OK, so "true" submission is achieved only when you no longer have a need for trust and you no longer care about self? Ummm...that doesn't sound like "true" submission to me, it sounds more like mental illness. Most D/s or M/s relationships that I am aware of are based on trust. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say but it certainly doesn't make sense to me.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Training End Game (5/21/2007 8:47:23 PM)
I think it's a bunch of platitudes- nice ideas, but not so simple in reality. I say stop caring so much about "true submission" and care about being secure and fulfilled together. When you have that, what else matters?

Politesub53 -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 1:49:09 AM)
When you are fully secure in your relationship, you come to have complete trust. Knowing that the Dominant wont go too far, at least not intentionally. You will also here lots of different views of what true submission is. For me, it is about doing things instinctivly and without hesitation. Then again thats just another opinion. [;)]

smilezz -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 2:37:00 AM)
There is that "true" word again. I have to wonder.........where do people come up with stuff/ideas like this? is there some handy dandy lil' book that states all these "isms"? if there is.........trash it! ~smilezz~

slavejali -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 3:21:55 AM)
quote: not relying on trust and not caring whether or not i hurt you, .....just so long as you are submitting" I guess his statement is ok in itself, .....just as long as he isnt an axe murderer [:)]

bandit25 -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 3:25:19 AM)
Sounds a bit like he read it in a book. It's ok to read and learn, but not everything can be applied that easily. Like LA said, if you're both fulfilled and happy, who cares?

NakedGirlScout -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 3:39:04 AM)
I think people may have been a bit too harsh without knowing what he really meant by it, and since it's been quoted by the sub who admitted to not understanding what he meant it may have really come out in a way he never intended (out of context). I would say that if you feel you do trust him and are happy with what he's doing, it's very unlikely that he's any of those bad things or just read things out of a book. He may have meant that when you are fully able to place your wellbeing into his care, after he has shown you through experience that he is not going to drop the ball, you will begin to trust him to a level that you're able to release much of your self-protectiveness into his hands. At that point it's a very safe and euphoric feeling because it frees you from many doubts and fears that until then had taken up your energy. All in all I would ask him what he meant, since the responses here from such a little snippet of conversation taken out of context are going to run the full gamut from "He's a dangerous predator, run away!!!" to "You're not a real submissive if you ever question him!" It's just better to see what he has to say about it and ask him to clarify for you.

LeatherBentOne -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 5:05:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mercurialis Ah, I feel a bit of a red flag here. This could be different for other people, but personally....BDSM is just part of me. Part, not all, not my identity. Here's the quote: "when the submission becomes such a big part of your identity and your emotional wellbeing, you will be able to surrender to true submission - not relying on trust and not caring whether or not i hurt you, just so long as you are submitting" And here's what I feel is mistaken with it. It sounds like he is trying to rework your personal identity. My personal identity is, I'm me. I don't identity myself as, "I'm a submissive." Nor does my emotional wellbeing depend on my submissive side. And my submission is based completely on my trust in a person...if a person starts to push the right buttons to make me feel submissive on purpose and they aren't a trusted friend, I feel backed into a corner and start to downright attack the person. Not caring if you get hurt? Um, well, I guess maybe some slaves could feel that way, but I care deeply about if I get hurt physically or emotionally, especially if I'm playing in a way that could be dangerous in the wrong hands. Yikes....I ended up realizing I have a problem with everything he said! It sounds like this "true submission" is just a nice way of saying making you into a passive submissive who will do anything he tells you to. I would have a serious conversation with him if you feel the same way, trying to figure out better both people's thoughts. To add a bit more...I don't like words like "true submission." The fact you already see yourself as submitting means you are, it's not like you need to be pushed to go farther. I'm a sub, I'm submitting to you, I'm doing what you would like me to do to the extent I'm comfortable...how is that not truly submitting? If a dom doesn't like what I bring to them as a sub, then we must not match up well enough to play. It's not like you can completely change a person. Edit: And yay for other's opinions...several people have pointed out that his meaning could be much different. You two should probably talk more about what he means. I feel a red flag also, and I hope that the OP uses caution and good judgement. Id start by asking him what her specifically means by his statement, sentence by sentence, and ask for an example of this should their relationship continue. The best thing is ask, and assume nothing. If his answers make the OP uncomfortable or suspicious in any way, I hope she trusts her gut feeling about this guy. He could turn into a real creep. It doesnt matter what we think, or what you think, but what he thinks, means and intends. LBO

IrishMist -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 5:08:59 AM)
quote: "when the submission becomes such a big part of your identity and your emotional wellbeing, you will be able to surrender to true submission - not relying on trust and not caring whether or not i hurt you, just so long as you are submitting" basically he is telling you that anytime he wants, he can and will beat the shit out of you...and if you are a TRUE submissive, you will not say anything at all to him about it. You wil just stand there and take it. good luck with this one, you are going to need it bad

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 7:40:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 You will also here lots of different views of what true submission is. For me, it is about doing things instinctivly and without hesitation. Right, and for a lot of masters, they want and in fact TRAIN their slaves to think and do many things AFTER thinking and getting feedback on them. A lot of slaves find it harder to verbalize and be completely open and honest with their internal reactions rather than just putting their heads down and doing it. This isn't about what's hard or easy though, simply saying that "true submission" cannot be so easily termed.

apettiger -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 7:51:23 AM)
red flag, red flag! i was with a master who said the same thing......AFTER i told him that if he hit me one more time i was going to call the cops on him. this is at the end of a beating that put me out of commission for over a week and did some nerve damage in my neck. stay and be damaged, go and survive another day to find your "TRUE MASTER".

mistoferin -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 7:53:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: apettiger red flag, red flag! i was with a master who said the same thing......AFTER i told him that if he hit me one more time i was going to call the cops on him. this is at the end of a beating that put me out of commission for over a week and did some nerve damage in my neck. stay and be damaged, go and survive another day to find your "TRUE MASTER". Wow....was this the same guy who wanted you to disown your UM?

thisday -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 8:50:38 AM)
Thank you so much for all of the thoughtful answers...it's so nice to have this feedback...i was feeling a little alone and confused. There are so many insightful comments, you've given me a lot to think about. And those that mentioned it are right...this is taken out of context. But I think that now I might have more to bring to the discussion. Thank you :)

OsideGirl -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 8:56:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam That's like saying I don't care if I'm drinking vanilla extract as long as I know it's alcohol. Doesn't sound healthy to me. Substitute "rubbing alcohol" for the "vanilla extract" and I'm there with ya. Here drink this Kool Aid..... What bothers me about that statement is this: quote: ORIGINAL: thisday not caring whether or not i hurt you, just so long as you are submitting I can understand developing a level of trust with someone to the point where it's no longer a daily issue. But, what he's talking about basically equals...."even bad attention is attention". It has connotations of abuse all over it and it bothers me. I'll also add, that what he's talking about is losing self respect. And, I disagree with him. IMO, a submissive that repects herself and her role, takes pride in serving is a far better submissive.

slaveish -> RE: Training End Game (5/22/2007 9:59:00 AM)
Fast Reply. Hopefully he meant that you have come to trust him, know him well enough to know that he will not harm you past your hard limits, and can thus act on his commands without thinking.

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