RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 4:37:17 AM)

If, though, God can die- and God is defined as a living being- how might he be eternal?

One might argue a diamond is eternal.  It need not be immortal- since, after all, it isn't alive.  But, for a living being?  It would violation its own definition to cease living.  As such, it would cease to exist, by definition.  It could not be eternal.

You reflect well upon your station.  I wish you well, darkinshadows.



darkinshadows -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 5:13:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

If, though, God can die- and God is defined as a living being- how might he be eternal?

One might argue a diamond is eternal.  It need not be immortal- since, after all, it isn't alive.  But, for a living being?  It would violation its own definition to cease living.  As such, it would cease to exist, by definition.  It could not be eternal.

You reflect well upon your station.  I wish you well, darkinshadows.


People are both mortal and eternal at the same time – you have the mortal coil (body) and the eternal soul (memory).
 
God is both god and man – therefore he is eternal – yet never immortal.
He will never be immortal simply because immortality is human design and god does not exist within human concepts – he exists outside.  The part of him that existed inside died, therefore immortal he can never be.
 
But he can be and is eternal because he is omnipresent.
 
To say a diamond is eternal, one must first define ‘diamond’.
Do you mean the diamond as it stands, or the compounds that creates it?  If it is the latter, then the answer is yes.
However, if you subscribe to the big bang theory – you then have determine if there was nothing before the big bang.  If there was somonething, then the diamond is eternal.  If there wasn’t – then it is not.
 
Being immortal, does not mean one has to be ‘alive’ – it simply means it has no end, but always a beginning.   You have to ‘become’ to be immortal.  As for humans, they have the ability to be eternal, but not immortal since they will die, since one cannot prove immortality.
 
And as humans, if we are eternal then we are god and if I am god, then I live eternally.
 
When one is immortal, time is relevant.
To be eternal, time is not.
 
Peace and Rapture Curious One



Tuoni -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 5:40:02 AM)

Woot, finally finished reading this thread to put my little bit in. Late to the show I may be. Unfortunatly, Termyn8or kinda got to my point before me. CL, you stated yourself that any being that affects this universe is a part of this universe. To be apart of this universe, one can not be immortal. I could find the quote, but this thread is 13 pages long. My eyes hurt going through this once.

So, from what I understand your theory states that god can not exists in the universe. God is defined as immortal, immortality is immpossible. Ergo, god is immpossible.

But only within the universe. God can be immortal (Or eternal. Whatever your interpatation) if it:
a) does not exist with the universe
b) is the universe.

b) is possible because your argument requires the universe to be infinite in duration. It must be eternal. If the universe can end the not all possibilities can be reached, ergo immortality is possible and therfore so is God.

a) is possible in my understanding. God can not interact directly with the universe. The moment God does so, God becomes part of the universe and ceases to be God. A perfect being can not interact with imperfection and remain perfect. God can, however, create intermediates. Angels if you will. God creates and angel. A perfect being. The angel is 'inserted' (for lack of a better term) into reality. Our universe. The angel becomes corrupted. Imperfect and mortal. God can still exist. God can still impact our universe.

I understand your argument. I just feel the conclusion was. . . incomplete

*note: I don't belive in god. I do hope for a god, but it's like buying a lotto ticket. You don't expect to be a millionaire, but you can still hope.*


Oh and on topic, genius's are insane because sanity is dull. Also, sanity =! happiness. You can be crazily happy or depressingly normal.


*edited in*

Gah, I just remembered something I've been thinking of. God is infinite. Infinite love, infinite kindness, infinite is all aspect. Our minds can't truly grasp infinite. Seriously, try picturing an infinitely long rope. It just disapears beyond vision. You can only view a finite portion of that rope.

If God is infinite, God is beyond human comprehention. There is no real point to this thought, but it makes me think that all arguments regarding any aspect of God is invalid. Even the concept of God being infinite is somehow. . . .limiting.

  */edit*



Lucius -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 6:36:10 AM)

I'm not going to read the whole thread, so I'll just take the risk of being redundant here.

In order to understand a hyperintelligent "genius" person, try looking in the other direction. Think of stupid people you know. Think of people you've known who just don't "get" even fairly simple concepts if you try to explain them. People who are easily confused. If you've ever had a frustrating experience trying to deal with an idiot, that's the experience I want you to remember.

Now. Imagine living on a planet entirely populated with several billion idiots just like that.How long would it take them to drive you insane?

That's the world the genius lives in.

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary




LadyMorgynn -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 6:50:27 AM)

Thank you, Lucius, you just saved me the trouble of having to put all my thoughts together into a reasonable coherency <laugh>

I will add one other thing though... it's not just the idiots that make us nuts. NORMAL people don't learn at the rate at which I learn. It makes me remarkably UNsuitable as, say, a teacher, because even with the patience of Job (which I don't have anyway), I have no concept of not being able to "get" something. I see and understand things so clearly, that it is close to impossible for me to understand how others cannot see it... I don't get that they don't get it. It is highly frustrating to me, and makes me freakin' NUTS when faced with people who just don't understand what I'm trying to explain to them. And even tho I DO know, rationally, that I'm the one who's different, not them, that doesn't go far when faced with someone who is non-understanding that to me seems almost deliberately obstructionist, just because I can't understand why they don't understand. I'm sure you will all breathe a sigh of relief when I mention that I do avoid any positions that involve teaching or mentoring ;)

And trying to explain this phenomenon also isn't that easy lol. I've never tried to put it into words before, it's not something one can really talk about easily without coming off as I'm-so-smart-other-people-are-dumb and really that is not how I approach things. I'm just saying... under certain conditions it is INCREDIBLY frustrating and yes, insane making, to deal in the Real World where everyone else is normal.

When you add Fox news to the mix.... well!!!

LOL


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucius

I'm not going to read the whole thread, so I'll just take the risk of being redundant here.

In order to understand a hyperintelligent "genius" person, try looking in the other direction. Think of stupid people you know. Think of people you've known who just don't "get" even fairly simple concepts if you try to explain them. People who are easily confused. If you've ever had a frustrating experience trying to deal with an idiot, that's the experience I want you to remember.

Now. Imagine living on a planet entirely populated with several billion idiots just like that.How long would it take them to drive you insane?

That's the world the genius lives in.

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary



SinCat -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 7:08:42 AM)

Genius is on thing.

"simplicity is the key to genius" ... is quite another



darkinshadows -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 7:26:59 AM)

quote:

a) is possible in my understanding. God can not interact directly with the universe. The moment God does so, God becomes part of the universe and ceases to be God. A perfect being can not interact with imperfection and remain perfect. God can, however, create intermediates. Angels if you will. God creates and angel. A perfect being. The angel is 'inserted' (for lack of a better term) into reality. Our universe. The angel becomes corrupted. Imperfect and mortal. God can still exist. God can still impact our universe.

By this reasoning, If God cannot interact directly with the universe, then he cannot interact directly with anything.  Not even us.  So if he used 'angels' for example - then it wouldnt be god, it would be angels.  Therefore god would not exist and angels would.
So now - prove the existance and immortality of angels.[;)]
 
Once an angel is corrupted, then it becomes a demon, which is now impossible as their choice was given before time began and sorted out before our becomming.  Therefore angels are not imperfect.
 
God can create imtermediates, but angels were created before time began.
God is omnipotent, therefore he can exists everywhere and as everything and within everything.  Therefore everything can become and is God.
 
Imperfection and mortality are not linked like that.
Immortality and eternal being are completely different.
 
God doesn't 'become' the universe, because God always existed, therefore, the universe is god.
 
And god can never be immortal - simply because he has no beginning.  Anything that has no beginning cannot be immortal and as immortality cannot be proved nor shown, nothing can be immortal.
 
Not even God.
But he can be eternal.
As can the universe.
But to be eternal, one does not have to be immortal - but it does not work in reverse.
One has to be eternal to be immortal because immortality is determined simply by death, not life nor creation.
Haha - the circle of life (like my ramblings - around in circles)
 
Not all genius' are insane.  That is a percieved phenomenon, a simple theory, exactly like immortality.
However insanity is genuis, just as all is eternal.
 
Genius is innate in everything.
 
Peace



Real0ne -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 8:01:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
God can never be immortal, since technically he did die.
However he can still be eternal - since one must have no beginning and no end.


i may be really rusty on god stuff but it seems to me christian theology teaches god as immortal or eternal interchangebly.

Now if i remember the thology correctly as handed down from rome:

1) the "son of god" that is jesus died.  not god.

2) The soul lives on forever and is immortal, not the body

i do not recall either luther or king henry to disagree with those 2 points.

i also think it is important to correctly understand what theology teaches and i question if what is being said here is according to hoyle so to speak.

Its been along time so i may off here but that i8s how i remember it.





Real0ne -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 8:03:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucius

I'm not going to read the whole thread, so I'll just take the risk of being redundant here.

In order to understand a hyperintelligent "genius" person, try looking in the other direction. Think of stupid people you know. Think of people you've known who just don't "get" even fairly simple concepts if you try to explain them. People who are easily confused. If you've ever had a frustrating experience trying to deal with an idiot, that's the experience I want you to remember.

Now. Imagine living on a planet entirely populated with several billion idiots just like that.How long would it take them to drive you insane?

That's the world the genius lives in.

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary




hey watch the movie idiocracy!  you will love it!  LOL



SinCat -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 8:17:38 AM)

quite frankly the logic, if I may abuse the term, used in the majority of this thread but especially by darkinshadows is blinding
staggering really
It only takes a 3 second read through to find flaws..
the other posts, well...
well...
right then

/threaddeath




severetorture -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 8:20:12 AM)

The discussion of God being immortal is simply answered,we as men made God,and when we decide to smarten up and kill him,we'll all be better off.Don't fear your own intelligence like we fear myths.



Real0ne -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 8:41:31 AM)

i am going to step way out on a limb here and guess that god is considered to be immortal as well because it would have something to do with god transmuting through jesus because jesus was both god/man and jesus was considered immortal.   (he went to heaven and sits at the right hand of the father),  ie lives forever,  beyond that i bow out and give the floor to ya all to hash it out.

i do think it is important to first establish and agree on what theology teaches before arguing the finer points of it. 



MissPlease -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 9:23:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'm growing so weary of trying to beat this through the heads.

Okay.
.........................................................................
Fifth.
Measuring the age of our universe is done with Physics, as we believe it to be.  While we hope it's accurate, it is not an absolute proof- just circumstantial evidence of a grand variety.

Sixth.
I'm busy lately, so excuse the slow responses.

Yup, trying to beat anything through anyone's head is exhausting and, well.....a waste of good energy that can be used in other ways, I'm sure.  Nope, there's no absolute proof of anything , that's why it's called faith.   I have faith that we're not meant to know some things.  I don't try to beat anyone's head into 'believing' anything they don't want to respectfully discuss.  That's something I can control.  I can also control giving my viewpoint with respect.  Doesn't make me better or worse than anyone.  It's how I choose to relate with people.

That's another good reason why I don't argue or attack others' ideas much.  I just present my perception and let others have their views while I study and respect them so I can keep my mind open to what I don't know and what I can't be.  It's all relative and all good until a negative energy is trying to attach itself to my positive energy. 

While humanity keeps trying to wrap our minds around why some people go insane, I do think it's very important to note that there's usually a major relationship between spiritual beliefs and recovery  from mental illness.  If IQ has anything to do with spiritual beliefs, and that's why some judge others' capacity to be objective, that's a good discussion for sure and we can take it from physics to politics.

I may be egocentric,  but I know I am not the source and controller of all infinitesimal wisdom and energies, I'm just a vehicle for some of it.  Nor do I try to control everything around me all the time....that would surely drive anyone mad and humanity would surely perish.

Be well, be loved,
MissPlease

P.S.  Loved the movie 'Idiocracy'.  I also giggle at Monty Python and could definitely have fun auditioning for a position in the Ministry of Funny Walks.   Humor...great way to stay sane!  ;)



darkinshadows -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 9:37:56 AM)

Mortality in biblical terms speaks of 'humaness' as in - the mortal coil - so immortality would speak of undying humaness.
 
quote:

1) the "son of god" that is jesus died.  not god.

In christian teaching, Jesus - son of god - was god.  ergo - god is not immortal (in human form)if he died.
 
quote:

2) The soul lives on forever and is immortal, not the body

Blergh - depends on interpretation (rather than teaching).
 
Mort = death
Mortal is one subject to death.
Immortal is one that cannot die.
 
 
The most prominant, stand alone, claim would be in 1 Timothy - and that is the only time the word immortal is used - and that was in reference to jesus (who is god - but you get my drift I hope)
The words used for example in greek aphthartos and aphtharsia - interpreted do not mean immortal persey, but incorruptable... or - of the living dead (ie zombies - knows Darcy is gonna love that one[;)])  so an example could be Lazerus (living dead) and Jesus (incorruptable).
 
Secular philosphies teach and make good the idea of immortality.  Bible doesn't.  Eternal is immeasurable.  Origan(I think, but might be wrong there) and Augustine were both fans of Plato, and this is where the whole explaination of the bible and immortality stems.  No where in the bible are the words 'immortal soul' mentioned, but immortality is mentioned in the negative (as in you cannot have it if etc). The concept was filtered through the west from greek philosophy.
 
And 'soul' as defined biblically in the OT was 'a breathing creature'... or 'body' - in the NT it was determined as 'life' - not the soul as people envisage today(and the soul you mean as above).  Actually in the OT, it states that the soul can die.
 
Am I making sense or talking waffle?[:D]
Peace



darkinshadows -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 9:44:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinCat

quite frankly the logic, if I may abuse the term, used in the majority of this thread but especially by darkinshadows is blinding
staggering really
It only takes a 3 second read through to find flaws..
the other posts, well...
well...
right then

/threaddeath



Hey - who said I was using logic? [;)]
Never been logical in my whole life... how terribly boring that would be.
 
But please do find flaws... mention them - if your able to stick to a debate rather than just oneliners...
 
Peace



Real0ne -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 10:07:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissPlease
P.S.  Loved the movie 'Idiocracy'.  I also giggle at Monty Python and could definitely have fun auditioning for a position in the Ministry of Funny Walks.   Humor...great way to stay sane!  ;)



yes without giving it away the part on rehab imo was a total gut buster!  LOL



darkinshadows -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 10:09:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i do think it is important to first establish and agree on what theology teaches before arguing the finer points of it. 


Annhilationism is (as far as I know) the only christian minority that teaches immortality.  So it does depend if you are using this as your basis, as I don't.
 
Peace



Lordandmaster -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 10:10:00 AM)

Fast reply: You know, a real genius might realize that the plural of "genius" isn't "genius's."



Real0ne -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 10:16:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Mortality in biblical terms speaks of 'humaness' as in - the mortal coil - so immortality would speak of undying humaness.
 
quote:

1) the "son of god" that is jesus died.  not god.

In christian teaching, Jesus - son of god - was god.  ergo - god is not immortal (in human form)if he died.
 
quote:

2) The soul lives on forever and is immortal, not the body

Blergh - depends on interpretation (rather than teaching).
 
Mort = death
Mortal is one subject to death.
Immortal is one that cannot die.
 
 
The most prominant, stand alone, claim would be in 1 Timothy - and that is the only time the word immortal is used - and that was in reference to jesus (who is god - but you get my drift I hope)
The words used for example in greek aphthartos and aphtharsia - interpreted do not mean immortal persey, but incorruptable... or - of the living dead (ie zombies - knows Darcy is gonna love that one[;)])  so an example could be Lazerus (living dead) and Jesus (incorruptable).
 
Secular philosphies teach and make good the idea of immortality.  Bible doesn't.  Eternal is immeasurable.  Origan(I think, but might be wrong there) and Augustine were both fans of Plato, and this is where the whole explaination of the bible and immortality stems.  No where in the bible are the words 'immortal soul' mentioned, but immortality is mentioned in the negative (as in you cannot have it if etc). The concept was filtered through the west from greek philosophy.
 
And 'soul' as defined biblically in the OT was 'a breathing creature'... or 'body' - in the NT it was determined as 'life' - not the soul as people envisage today(and the soul you mean as above).  Actually in the OT, it states that the soul can die.
 
Am I making sense or talking waffle?[:D]
Peace



we may have 2 different approaches here...   maybe more as others chime in....  i was referring to what rome passes down based on my memory rather than specific biblical accountings for it.  i think rome depends highly on augustine's work.   What i am trying to say is that there are different accounts as far as the theology goes and i just think you all have to come to a common agreement on which theology everyone plans on using for the debate, or maybe thats what the debate is about?



LadyMorgynn -> RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? (6/3/2007 10:22:11 AM)

He could even be right. He certainly provided those in this country with a repressive political agenda a perfect opportunity. In fact, the whole thing could even be a massive, far-reaching plot to give the Right an excuse to take away our freedoms and change America as we know it into something closely resembling the repressive religious society of Saudi Arabia... with a Christian slant of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The US government will lead the American people into an unbearable hell and a choking life.--Osama bin Laden, Oct, 2001



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