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Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 4:39:15 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		This thread is based on me working something out in my head, so I'm willing for it to be a process to allow me to entertain thoughts of other people for a moment or two just to see whether I come back to my original thoughts on the subject when all is said and done, or whether my thoughts change around this subject.

I agree, relationship is relationship. If two people do not have the stuff to bind a relationship together, its gonna end, whether that be a vanilla based or D/s. There are obvious factors within any relationship that have to be present for it to work ( I suppose..but I'm sitting on the fence in that thought). I suppose a more accurate statement would be " There are obvious factors within any well rounded relationship, (where both people are being fulfilled), that need to be present for it to work.

I don't like vanilla relationship, it doesn't suit me. In fact I think I could say, I've never actually been in one, there has always been a strong D/s dynamic in my relationships, whether or not M/s was involved or not. The only thing I can relate to in regards to my dislike of vanilla relationships is from my past,  knowing that I really draw a blank mentally and emotionally when approached by an obiovus vanilla guy. There is just no connection there whatsoever, they have no hook into me. I guess I can draw the conclusion that I don't like vanilla relationships too by the fact that I know people in them and I just cant appreciate their relationship at all, somehwere inside me feels sad for them, somewhere inside me feels like they are missing out on a relationship dynamic that is so profound. There is just no relating to them for me.

Sorry if this sounds prideful, but I'm pretty at home with myself and I do not feel the need to prove myself in anyway, or assert myself, in fact i could say I'm a pretty well put together chick. I do not feel in anyway that my slavery, my submission or my surrender to my partner jeopardises me in the slightest. I do not feel giving up my own goals and dreams for someone elses as derrogatory to my soul, mind or heart in anyway whatosever, as I really don't have any outward goals or ambitions that would add to or subtract from me. I can't think of a worse scenario than being dependent on an external circumstance to be a basis for happiness or my sense of well-being.

Saying that though, my mind starts to wander and explore the possibility of being with an incompatible partner to my personality. I wonder if that was the case, whether I could make the same statement so definitely. Could I submit and give myself over to just anyone? Its probably highly doubtful, yet I go back to my past and I have submitted to a total abuser and realised what its like not submit in a non-caring relationship and how it does eat at your soul and threatens the very flame inside us that keeps us alive. Yet since I realised that fact, I've never attracted another abuser in my life, all my subsequent partners have been amazing men, all in their own special way.

However to be in this world one does have to have a purpose for living, the world itself is fucked up, all the dymanics between people are all fucked up, I'd fly away from this world in a heartbeat if I was given a ticket..but thusfar no cosmic leaving tickets have arrived on my doorstep, so here I am, I might as well find a purpose to be here otherwise I would just be another depressed person walking around the planet wondering why the hell I'm even alive.

So for a personality with no outward goals, no outward dreams, nothing left to prove or be, yet still here...whats left? The only thing left for me to do is serve and play. Now the serving is a dificult part, serving in the world can be so egotistic, we work out a cause in our mind and go towards it thinking we are helping, serving humanity, yet really even when it comes down to that, if I offered someone money to get them outa a hardship they were going through, am i really serving them? maybe they needed to go through that process for self growth? If I go save the pandas, maybe its their time to be extinghished from the planet? i could get caught up in political agendas, but really who am I really serving and how do I determine in the grand scheme of things that Im standing for the right side that in the bigger picture will benefit humanity more? I'm much too small for that and I do not think I have the infinite wisdom to know what is really for the good of the people. I'll leave that to others who apparently know more than me or perhaps its just their personality that is so inclined.

I can't rely on whats in front of me to determine a course of action, appearances and the apparent are deceiving. I cannot determine whether someone is nice or nasty by their words or their actions as thats all deceiving too. I've known people in my life who for all intents and purposes were so great and sucking people in with their kind actions and correct speech and all the while harbored horrible thoughts, I've known cranky old bastards, totally misunderstood by the majority who have been so amazing in their clarity and honesty in thought. Nothing in this world is what it seems most times.

Basically my conclusion is, nothing in this world is reliable, no circumstance, no person, no conclusion. I cannot fixate on some giant cause to give me some purpose to be here, I have to find the most tinsy tiny thing, the tinsiest tiny thing to focus on and give me a cause to live. In the grand scheme of things, taking the whole world into account, relationship with another, fits the bill. I can devote myself to my partner, serve him, surrender, bring some joy into one other souls life. It's a totally little thing, not very complicated at all. Everything else I do stems from that...and I do do a lot

So, a M/s situation really suits me. I get to serve and play. I get to surrender to a person, I get to have a purpose no matter how small that is. I get to have fun and explore all kinds of sensations, emotions and thoughts. Those things are "Whats in it for me".

I do not want vanilla ethics within my relationship with Master. I want him to be my Master, my owner, my overlord, the governing body of our relationship to which I surrender to. I want to be able to trust him, trust our relationship and my decision to enter into it so much so that I can trust his decisions regarding it, whatever they may be.

So I come back to the purpose of this topic: I was reading in another thread how people viewed a removal of a collar as the ending of a relationship. I just don't get it. Why can't it be possible for people to have D/s M/s relationships that are solid enough to withstand the decision of the dominant, no matter how harsh the lesson is? Why do we bring vanilla based ethics into D/s relationships? I guess I know the answer..but I would be interested in comments.

My answer to my own question would be ' because everyone is different, and have been brought up differently and have come to different conclusions and associations and it cant be helped most times that we bring pre-conceived ideas into new situations and try to apply them".

Just something extra. I'm by no means downgrading anyones thoughts on this subject, these were just all my thoughts, wrong or right, doesnt matter or apply.

As a general conscensus, is my thinking really that far out?

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 4:52:54 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		You're just really deeply into the how D/s dynamic, probably into M/s.  Slaves are probably just as rare among subs as subs are among the general population.  Not exactly rare, but not nearly as common as their more vanilla brothern.

I'd warn that "vanilla" is practically an insult around here.  D/s is relatively vanilla to M/s- something that Dom's and sub's alike cringe at and often become hostile about.  Because, of course, if you're "vanilla" compared to anyone else, that automatically means you're not as good, so you must fight to prove you're in no way vanilla-esque.  *Grumbles.*

Hell, I had a "Masterhood" thread a while back.  Half of the respondees to it told me someone like you existed only in my imagination.  That such a dynamic is impossible and the fantascy of an inexperieced kid.

So, my point being, there's hostility to M/s.  But, no, you're not alone.  Such a life is beautiful.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:00:07 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		D/s is profound for you because you're wired for it. But my very vanilla aunt and uncle, getting ready to celebrate 50 years together have a very profound vanilla relationship because that's what they're wired for.

However there are certain things that need to be present in any healthy relationship; trust, respect, acceptance, enjoyment of the other's company, compatibility, matching morals. As well as things that are specific to individual relationships.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:05:07 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

So I come back to the purpose of this topic: I was reading in another thread how people viewed a removal of a collar as the ending of a relationship. I just don't get it. Why can't it be possible for people to have D/s M/s relationships that are solid enough to withstand the decision of the dominant, no matter how harsh the lesson is? Why do we bring vanilla based ethics into D/s relationships? I guess I know the answer..but I would be interested in comments.


Ah, yes, I thought something similar about it.  The collar being removed would be a harsh measure, ending the official part of the relationship, but not necessarily all of it.  As another noted, it "put [one] back [in]to consideration".

I know that, if I had ever stripped my slave of her collar, if would devistate her.  But she would follow me, with whatever strength she had, regardless.  She would not question my reasons for doing so outside of considering how she may have failed to perform and nail it into her mind not to make the same mistake again.  I see this as a loyal slave's view.

From a Master's view, removing a collar from a slave, only to give it back later, damages the meaning of a collar in a manner in which divorcing and remarrying might damage the value of a marriage.  It devalues the meaning of the Master's own collar, and it's damage against the credibility of his control in duration.

In my view, a slave fit to wear a collar does not disobey willfully.  One that does likely deserves to have the collar stripped from her.  I would not take back, or maintain, such a slave.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:07:31 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

D/s is profound for you because you're wired for it. But my very vanilla aunt and uncle, getting ready to celebrate 50 years together have a very profound vanilla relationship because that's what they're wired for.


Probably.  It's what I value. It's who I am.  And I agree vanilla relationships can be quite profound for others.  It's M/s that means the most to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

However there are certain things that need to be present in any healthy relationship; trust, respect, acceptance, enjoyment of the other's company, compatibility, matching morals. As well as things that are specific to individual relationships.


How would you define a "healthy relationship"?

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:18:47 PM   
slavejali


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Status: offline
quote:

In my view, a slave fit to wear a collar does not disobey willfully.  One that does likely deserves to have the collar stripped from her.  I would not take back, or maintain, such a slave.


I willfully disobey Master sometimes..I don't think it can be helped ...I try to be but I'm far from perfect...I guess my point is just that, the relationship is established , the dynamic is established..the submissive/slave should be able to trsut the relationship enough to accept the repercussion of their actions decided by the dominant (whatever that is).

I dunno, maybe my situation is just really different...but fuck.....what if Master and I lost all our money and the only thing left to hock was my collar? Our relationship isnt gonna end cuz its gone. It woulda been taken from me for a purpose..just as the same as if he took it from me cuz I wasn't living up to it.

You know one thing Master has done to me when I've fucked up as a slave, he has withdrawn his dominance....wouldnt that be more terrifying for people than the removal of a piece of leather?

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:26:13 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Sorry to go off topic for a sec: but I just got a new puter and its using Vista..and i cant work out how to refresh the page..wheres the button please? lol

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:32:45 PM   
imthatacheyouhav


Posts: 1259
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not understanding why ethics have to be vanilla or otherwise....ethics are ethics....honor is honor.....manners are manners....that has ZERO to do with where your kinks are ....

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:38:33 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Main Entry: eth·ic
Pronunciation: 'e-thik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek EthikE, from Ethikos
1 plural but singular or plural in construction : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2 a : a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values <the present-day materialistic ethic> <an old-fashioned work ethic> -- often used in plural but sing. or plural in constr. <an elaborate ethics> <Christian ethics> b plural but singular or plural in construction : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group <professional ethics> c : a guiding philosophy d : a consciousness of moral importance <forge a conservation ethic>
3 plural : a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness) <debated the ethics of human cloning>

I guess I used the word ethic as a lot of people apply the same meaning to a collar as a wedding ring. Take a wedding ring off someone and the relationship is over, thats pretty much the accepted thing in vanilla world.

So apart from the "obvious" things needed for a relationship to survive, which is across the board whether a D/s or vanilla relationship...isnt D/s and M/s a different beast?

< Message edited by slavejali -- 5/23/2007 5:41:35 PM >

_____________________________

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Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:46:16 PM   
smilingjaguar


Posts: 271
Status: offline 		Look at the end of the address bar on the right, if I'm remembering correctly. There should be a refresh icon and a stop button.  I'm in XP "working" right now...working on getting it to work!

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:49:46 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		thanks smiling jaguar, got it

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:52:01 PM   
mstrj69


Posts: 295
Joined: 5/27/2004
Status: offline 		What did receiving a collar mean to you ?  What type of emotions were tied to it ?  If it meant nothing to you then having it taken from you will mean nothing.  If, however, it shoed to you how much your Master loved and cared for you then having that love and care taken from you would be the end of the relationship.  In your one post, you wrote what if Master and i lost all our money and all we had to hock was my collar....   That is not the same thing as your master not loving you anymore but rather is a vanilla world event, hocking something to get money.  You did not mention your master renting you out or selling you outright to get money because the latter would show he no longer wanted you as much as he wanted money.  Having married a vanilla woman, I still would never have let her give up her wedding rings just to get us money.  There are other ways to obtain money which is vanilla as much as it is M/s.

< Message edited by mstrj69 -- 5/23/2007 5:54:37 PM >

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:52:20 PM   
m0rgan


Posts: 403
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Status: offline 		the refresh button is only in the addy bar if you have put it there, with your settings, other ways are; right click on screen, left click refresh, or open the view button, left click refresh. to put that button in your top bar, right click a space on the bar, then l/click customise!
i put a link to vista tips in an answer to someone in the tech queries board, search on my name (with an 0 not a o)!


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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 5:53:24 PM   
imthatacheyouhav


Posts: 1259
Joined: 4/16/2007
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quote:

So apart from the "obvious" things needed for a relationship to survive, which is across the board whether a D/s or vanilla relationship...isnt D/s and M/s a different beast?

for me it is a spicer version of a relationship....period......but like you said yourself... somethings are "obvious" and needed for a relationship to survive.which is why i said ethics are ethics...and honor is honor....


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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:00:27 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
I guess I can draw the conclusion that I don't like vanilla relationships too by the fact that I know people in them and I just cant appreciate their relationship at all, somehwere inside me feels sad for them, somewhere inside me feels like they are missing out on a relationship dynamic that is so profound. There is just no relating to them for me.

That makes sense to me, I hear this from a lot of christians when they talk about non-christians.

quote:

I do not want vanilla ethics within my relationship with Master. I want him to be my Master, my owner, my overlord, the governing body of our relationship to which I surrender to. I want to be able to trust him, trust our relationship and my decision to enter into it so much so that I can trust his decisions regarding it, whatever they may be.
[
I don't consider those ethics at all.  Simply relationship dynamics.  You do not want a relationship dynamic in which you ultimate authority.

quote:

So I come back to the purpose of this topic: I was reading in another thread how people viewed a removal of a collar as the ending of a relationship. I just don't get it. Why can't it be possible for people to have D/s M/s relationships that are solid enough to withstand the decision of the dominant, no matter how harsh the lesson is? Why do we bring vanilla based ethics into D/s relationships? I guess I know the answer..but I would be interested in comments.

The issue with the other thread was whether the collar symbolized something which would damage THE RELATIONSHIP if taken down or not.

If the collar was nothing more than a pretty bauble, then no, it wouldn't be a problem.  If the master handed the collar to the slave and said "As long as this is on your neck, I will be your master, if it is taken off, the relationship is over" and THEN decided to take it off...well that seems pretty final cut and dry to me.

That isn't a matter of applying "vanilla ethics" to anything- it's a question of what dynamics do you set up in your relationship and how will you follow through on them.  If a master follows through in a really craptastic way, should the slave suffer to the point of betraying their own sense of self, betraying the very commitment they made at the beginning of the relationship?

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:03:05 PM   
SireKane


Posts: 105
Joined: 1/22/2004
Status: offline 		"I just don't get it. Why can't it be possible for people to have D/s M/s relationships that are solid enough to withstand the decision of the dominant, no matter how harsh the lesson is? "

In my opinion  the reason most Ds/ relationship don't last is because most  D/s  M/s relationship are just vanilla relationships with a twist of kink. There is very little  genuine commitment.  Submissive sserve at their convienance.  I've never negotiated a scene or relationship. I tell the submissive what I expect, and the answer is either yes or no. It's that simple.. I  have a written deed isssued to me from my slave/property stating that she will serve me until I do not want her to serve me any longer,  we've been together going on 12 years. Unless you are all in, commited to the long haul you're just fooling yourself.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:04:27 PM   
earthycouple


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imthatacheyouhav

I'm not understanding why ethics have to be vanilla or otherwise....ethics are ethics....honor is honor.....manners are manners....that has ZERO to do with where your kinks are ....


I almost did a post very similar when this thread was first opened and decided that was too basic an answer...but darn it! you are right. 

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:06:04 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

What did receiving a collar mean to you ?  What type of emotions were tied to it ? 


Master giving me a collar meant I had earned the right to wear it. Earning the right to wear it meant that he had accepted me as his slave and I had accepted by position as his slave. It is a symbolism of the type of relationship we have. If he took it off me, I wouldnt feel that our relationship had ended but that i wasn't living up to my part of it and would think to try and earn it back. I don't want it just to be 'something around my neck' I want it to mean something through my action.

I have another secret collar which means a lot to me. When Master had my nipples pierced, it was a really big deal to me, it was one of my hard limits but i submitted to him and now my nipples are pierced. I think sometimes my nipple rings mean more to me than my collar itself cause it was really a profound experience for me, it was a hard thing for me to do, really hard. The stuff I needed to do to earn my collar wasn't hard at all, agreeing to obey and please and submit is what I like the foundation of my relationships to be about.

So maybe I can relate to peoples views on their collars and their removal in the way I relate to my nipple rings, maybe accepting the relationship and how its gonna be in the first place was their greatest challenge and so the collar becomes significant in that way...but I still suspect its more about affiliating them with wedding rings somehow.

My collar itself, doesnt show me Master loves and cares for me. The collar is signifying the type or relationship we have, Master/slave. His love for me is shown in other ways.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:17:21 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

 If the master handed the collar to the slave and said "As long as this is on your neck, I will be your master, if it is taken off, the relationship is over" and THEN decided to take it off...well that seems pretty final cut and dry to me.


True. I havent followed that thread for awhile, so don't know if he revealed whether statements like that were made...but I can appreciate if people have made agreements like that how traumatic and final the taking of their collar would be.

_____________________________

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:24:12 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

 Unless you are all in, commited to the long haul you're just fooling yourself.


That was pretty much my point. If you accept a "D/s M/s" relationship, thats exactly what your accepting, if it criss crosses over with vanilla ideals it gets all messy in my mind.

Like if Master wanted rid of me, I guess the way to get it across to me would be for him to say 'Leave'. That's kinda final for me, until he says that, whatever happens I'm his slave and I should trust the process (him).

< Message edited by slavejali -- 5/23/2007 6:48:00 PM >

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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