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RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:04:21 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

now there is a word, "imagineer"-- hmm


Courtesy of Disney. I think it perfectly fits the "news" that you find in the New York Slimes these days. It's "imagineered" news... 

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:06:53 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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Goes back a while, doesn't it with the times.

I remember all the fabricated news about "Yellow Cake", and "Aluminium Tubes"...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:08:02 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Why not? You let George Bush, Rice, Cheney, et. al. get away with Felony violations of 18 USC 371.

If you're not going to hold them accountable to the law, why pretend you have the moral authority to hold anyone?


Don't blame me, I NEVER voted for the monkey. No sir. I'm a smart slave; my state has ALWAYS gone blue in recent memory.


What does voting have to do with going to a Grand Jury to prosecute a felony?


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:12:26 AM   
slaverosebeauty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What does voting have to do with going to a Grand Jury to prosecute a felony?


Those who elected him have allowed him to commit those felonies, they still back him adn support him. The monkey on the hill still works for the people, so get those on the coast where the grand jury is pulled from to indite. Those of us on the west coast have other stuff to worry about, beside that, like the heat, high gas prices, illegals making it hard for those of us who are not bilingual to get work, etc.

Come on east coasters, indite the monkey and his staff and get the impeachment going.

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(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:21:24 AM   
selfbnd411


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Why not post the rest of the poll?:


Because I posted the link?

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:21:37 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What does voting have to do with going to a Grand Jury to prosecute a felony?


Those who elected him have allowed him to commit those felonies,


No-one but Bush CHOSE to break the law.

quote:


they still back him adn support him. The monkey on the hill still works for the people, so get those on the coast where the grand jury is pulled from to indite. Those of us on the west coast have other stuff to worry about, beside that, like the heat, high gas prices, illegals making it hard for those of us who are not bilingual to get work, etc.

Come on east coasters, indite the monkey and his staff and get the impeachment going.


Actually, it's the job of the United States Attorney to do that.

And now I expect you understand why it was so important to fire "The Few Good Men" like Capt. David Iglesias, and replace them all with Loyal Bushies?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:31:42 AM   
Jack45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty Those of us on the west coast have other stuff to worry about... illegals making it hard for those of us who are not bilingual to get work, etc.


Not just the West coast, I've read want ads where you have to be not just BILINGUAL but BILITERATE, you have to read and speak and write in Spanish. Now that is designed to keep guys like me out of that job legally.

quote:

How can anyone talk about “jobs that Americans aren’t doing” without some mention of price?—i.e. wages that American employers don’t want to pay? Particularly when, as we have repeatedly documented at VDARE.COM, American wages have been stagnating since the immigration floodgates were opened after 1965?

Peter Brimelow May 24

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:39:59 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What does voting have to do with going to a Grand Jury to prosecute a felony?


Those who elected him have allowed him to commit those felonies, they still back him adn support him. The monkey on the hill still works for the people, so get those on the coast where the grand jury is pulled from to indite. Those of us on the west coast have other stuff to worry about, beside that, like the heat, high gas prices, illegals making it hard for those of us who are not bilingual to get work, etc.

Come on east coasters, indite the monkey and his staff and get the impeachment going.


It is not legally known whether it is possible to indict a sitting president. It has never been done before.

Under the Constitution, the preisdent is held in check by the legislative branch. They can impeace a president for golfing too much if they wanted to. Clinton was impeached for lying about sex. Andrew Johnson was impeached for firing his secretary of war without informing Congress first. Not exactly abuse of power offenses.
The Democratric controlled congress can start impeachement hearings whenever they want. But it is Nancy Pelosi that has said there will be none of that.

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RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:43:13 AM   
selfbnd411


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack45
Not just the West coast, I've read want ads where you have to be not just BILINGUAL but BILITERATE, you have to read and speak and write in Spanish. Now that is designed to keep guys like me out of that job legally.


I've taught college for several years, and I can tell you that it's not poor command of the Spanish language that keeps many Americans out of higher level jobs...it's poor command of English.  Most of my students are functionally illiterate.  Here's the shocker--70% of my university is white, and generally my classes have an even higher concetration of white students.  Most cannot write in English, and most do not care to learn.

It's much easier to blame others for one's own personal failings.

(in reply to Jack45)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:47:07 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Ah, the NY Times, "All the news that's fit to slant."

Never forget about the money behind this Bill. Corporations have a lot at stake. President Bush seems to be beholding to them and is trying to give him this Bill as a parting gift. The Corporations need to insure another generation of minimum wage workers and low cost unskilled labor. The Bill insures this. Then there are the ultra rich liberal left. Senator Kennedy, their poster boy, and his family and friends will never be affected by the downward pressure this Bill will place on truckers, construction workers, clerks, and many other blue collar groups.

There is a lot of money on the side of passing this Bill and only people who work or believe in national sovereignty on the other. Watch carefully, their will be a ton of money put into commercials giving positive feedback on this bill. It will be incumbent on those in opposition to maintain focus on the facts.

  1. A Massive Amnesty: Title VI of the bill grants amnesty to virtually all of the 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens in the country today. Also acceptable under the legislation is a sworn affidavit from a non-relative (see Section 601(i)(2)). 
    The price of a Z visa is $3,000 for individuals. A family of five could purchase visas for the bargain price of $5,000—some $20,000 short of the net cost that household is likely to impose on local, state, and federal government each year, according to Heritage Foundation calculations.
  2. The Permanent "Temporary" Visa: Supporters of the bill call the Z visa a "temporary" visa. However, they neglect to mention that it can be renewed every four years until the visa holder dies, according to Section 601(k)(2) of the legislation.
    A law-abiding alien with a normal non-immigrant visa would surely desire this privileged status. Unfortunately for him, only illegal aliens can qualify, according Section 601(c)(1).
  3. Hobbled Background Checks: The bill would make it extremely difficult for the federal government to prevent criminals and terrorists from obtaining legal status. Under Section 601(h)(1), the bill would allow the government only one business day to conduct a background check to determine whether an applicant is a criminal or terrorist. Unless the government can find a reason not to grant it by the end of the next business day after the alien applies, the alien receives a probationary Z visa (good from the time of approval until six months after the date Z visas begin to be approved, however long that may be) that lets him roam throughout the country and seek employment legally.

    The problem is that there is no single, readily searchable database of all of the dangerous people in the world.
  4. Amnesty for "Absconders": Title VI's amnesty extends even to fugitives who have been ordered deported by an immigration judge but chose to ignore their removal orders. This would also be a reward to those who have defied U.S. immigration courts. (Indeed, the massive bureaucratic load caused by processing Z visas would undoubtedly mean longer waits for those who have played by the rules.) Further, those who have obeyed the law and complied with deportation orders would not be eligible for Z visas.
  5. Reverse Justice: The bill would effectively shut down the immigration court system. Under Section 601(h)(6), if an alien in the removal process is "prima facie eligible" for the Z visa, an immigration judge must close any proceedings against the alien and offer the alien an opportunity to apply for amnesty.
  6. Enforcement of Amnesty, Not Laws: The bill would transform Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) from a law enforcement agency into an amnesty distribution center. Under Sections 601(h)(1, 5) if an ICE agent apprehends aliens who appear to be eligible for the Z visa (in other words, just about any illegal alien), the agent cannot detain them. Instead, ICE must provide them a reasonable opportunity to apply for the Z visa. Instead of initiating removal proceedings, ICE will be initiating amnesty applications. This is the equivalent of turning the Drug Enforcement Agency into a needle-distribution network.
  7. Amnesty for Gang Members: Under Section 602(g)(2) of the bill, gang members would be eligible to receive amnesty. This comes at a time when violent international gangs, such as Mara Salvatrucha 13 (or "MS-13"), have brought mayhem to U.S. cities. More than 30,000 illegal-alien gang members operate in 33 states, trafficking in drugs, arms, and people. The Senate bill would end that. To qualify for amnesty, all a gang member would need to do is note his gang membership and sign a "renunciation of gang affiliation."
  8. Tuition Subsidies for Illegal Aliens: The Senate bill incorporates the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act (DREAM Act). The DREAM Act effectively repeals a 1996 federal law (8 U.S.C. § 1623) that prohibits any state from offering in-state tuition rates to illegal aliens unless the state also offers in-state tuition rates to all U.S. citizens. Ten states are currently defying this federal law. Section 616 would allow these and all other states to offer in-state tuition rates to any illegal alien who obtains the Z visa and attends college.

    The injustice of this provision is obvious. Illegal aliens would receive a taxpayer subsidy worth tens of thousands of dollars and would be treated better than U.S. citizens from out of state, who must pay three to four times as much to attend college.
    Further, legal aliens who possess an appropriate F, J, or M student visa would not receive this valuable benefit. Nor would they be eligible for the federal student loans that illegal aliens could obtain by this provision.
  9. Taxpayer-Funded Lawyers for Illegal Aliens: The Senate's bill would force taxpayers to foot the bill for many illegal aliens' lawyers.  This provision alone could cost hundreds of millions of dollars each year.
  10. Amnesty Before Enforcement Triggers. Proponents of the Senate approach have consistently claimed that it would allow delayed amnesty only after certain law enforcement goals are met. The text of the bill, however, tells a different story. Section 1(a) allows provisional Z visas to be issued immediately after enactment, and Section 601(f)(2) prohibits the federal government from waiting more than 180 days after enactment to begin issuing provisional Z visas.on

Continue to call your Representatives on this issue. Never let them forget who voted for them, and who will be paying the frieght for this Amnesty Bill.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 9:54:36 AM   
selfbnd411


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Further, legal aliens who possess an appropriate F, J, or M student visa would not receive this valuable benefit. Nor would they be eligible for the federal student loans that illegal aliens could obtain by this provision.



Neither are people on tourist visas.

Of course foreign students aren't eligible for tuition discounts--they are not immigrants.  They're here to learn, and then they return home.

Care to slant more?

Edit to add: I actually don't think that non-citizens should qualify for state or federal student aid.  These programs should be reserved for those who foot the bill--citizens.  I hate to see patently illogical statements echoed as facts, though.

< Message edited by selfbnd411 -- 5/25/2007 9:56:56 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 10:05:00 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Further, legal aliens who possess an appropriate F, J, or M student visa would not receive this valuable benefit. Nor would they be eligible for the federal student loans that illegal aliens could obtain by this provision.



Neither are people on tourist visas.

Of course foreign students aren't eligible for tuition discounts--they are not immigrants.  They're here to learn, and then they return home.

Care to slant more?

Edit to add: I actually don't think that non-citizens should qualify for state or federal student aid.  These programs should be reserved for those who foot the bill--citizens.  I hate to see patently illogical statements echoed as facts, though.


Not all return home. They come here on student visas, the visas expire, but they dont return home.

Most of the 9/11 hijackers were here on expired student visas. Not only this, but a year after September 11th, a visa renewal form arrived at the house that Mohammad Atta used to live at. When the government noticed the mistake, they sent federal agents to the house to try and get the document back. The resident refused and instead gave it to the media.

It just shows you how broken the system is.

(in reply to selfbnd411)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 10:27:17 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What does voting have to do with going to a Grand Jury to prosecute a felony?


Those who elected him have allowed him to commit those felonies, they still back him adn support him. The monkey on the hill still works for the people, so get those on the coast where the grand jury is pulled from to indite. Those of us on the west coast have other stuff to worry about, beside that, like the heat, high gas prices, illegals making it hard for those of us who are not bilingual to get work, etc.

Come on east coasters, indite the monkey and his staff and get the impeachment going.


It is not legally known whether it is possible to indict a sitting president. It has never been done before.


Well, since it doesn't say that they get a "Get out of Jail Free", unless you're a Criminal Apologist or Criminal Appeaser or Soft-On-Crime, I don't know why anyone would ever think in the first place, that in a Nation of Laws, that ***ANYONE*** would be exempt.

quote:


Under the Constitution, the preisdent is held in check by the legislative branch. They can impeace a president for golfing too much if they wanted to. Clinton was impeached for lying about sex. Andrew Johnson was impeached for firing his secretary of war without informing Congress first. Not exactly abuse of power offenses.
The Democratric controlled congress can start impeachement hearings whenever they want. But it is Nancy Pelosi that has said there will be none of that.


And again, it is not the Congress' job to bring crimes to a Grand Jury for Indictment.

If you can IMPEACH for "High Crimes", how would GUILT for those "High Crimes" be established WITHOUT the Criminal Process???

Anyone who proposes that The President is Exempt from the Laws, I would suggest, ACTUALLY HATES THE AMERICAN VALUES THAT SUPPOSEDLY MADE THIS NATION WHAT IT ONCE WAS.

Immigrants are nothing, compared to the threat posed by these Neo-Monarchists who would suggest that ANY CITIZEN is exempt from the Law.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 10:35:08 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Further, legal aliens who possess an appropriate F, J, or M student visa would not receive this valuable benefit. Nor would they be eligible for the federal student loans that illegal aliens could obtain by this provision.



Neither are people on tourist visas.

Of course foreign students aren't eligible for tuition discounts--they are not immigrants.  They're here to learn, and then they return home.

Care to slant more?

Edit to add: I actually don't think that non-citizens should qualify for state or federal student aid.  These programs should be reserved for those who foot the bill--citizens.  I hate to see patently illogical statements echoed as facts, though.


To be clear - you're saying that those given amnesty, who the day before would be criminals under the law, should be given more rights and access to education money than a US Citizen or any person in the country legally here to attend school? And that is "logical" as far as you are concerned? These people, one day from being a criminal, should be given more rights, more access, more money, than anyone else?

Your detailed response to all the points raised mirrors what I hear in talking to those answering the phone for my representative. They usually say that they don't have, or can't respond to any, or pick one and change the question. Those sections quoted are as they appear in the Bill. Whether you like it or not, it is how it will be enforced. If it isn't enforced to the maximum assumed benefit of those receiving this amnesty there is another provision providing them free legal service to pursue their efforts. Do you get that as a US citizen?

One of the items not mentioned is that a provision that was in last year's Bill requiring that any/all back taxes be paid for the period of time these people were criminally employed, as well as reacquiring the employers to pay back payroll and SS tax. Those provisions are not in this bill. I think all US citizens should be given the same opportunity of tax paying amnesty.

(in reply to selfbnd411)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 10:40:25 AM   
Nosathro


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From: Orange County, California
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Okay there are few things I find interesting.  The last major Immigration act back in the 80's granted amnesty and citizenship to an estimated 3 million illegal Immigrates in this country and would end illegal crossings into our country.  Now we have an estimated 11 million plus illegal immigrantents who will be given amnesty and citizenship.  Oh, there is also a lawsuit by those legal immigrantes who want the same benefits the illegal immigrantes are getting.

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

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RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 10:42:05 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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Well, you see, companies like Tyson and Wal-Mart *really* need the cheap labor provided by off-the-books employees.

As long as they see a financial benefit, there will always be people to fill the jobs they offer.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 10:44:40 AM   
selfbnd411


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quote:


To be clear - you're saying that those given amnesty, who the day before would be criminals under the law, should be given more rights and access to education money than a US Citizen or any person in the country legally here to attend school?


You're still unclear...go back to my post and reread it.  I said they should not be given Federal or state student aid of any sort.

Regarding responding point by point, I suspect that the staffers you're calling know what they're doing.  Are you really calling them to discuss the matter, or are you simply calling to express your mind?  Is there really anything they can say that will change your mind?

I'm not criticizing you, btw.  I'm just asking you what you expect these people to do for you.  They probably tallied your objection and that was that.  Mission accomplished.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 11:45:37 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:


To be clear - you're saying that those given amnesty, who the day before would be criminals under the law, should be given more rights and access to education money than a US Citizen or any person in the country legally here to attend school?


You're still unclear...go back to my post and reread it.  I said they should not be given Federal or state student aid of any sort.

Regarding responding point by point, I suspect that the staffers you're calling know what they're doing.  Are you really calling them to discuss the matter, or are you simply calling to express your mind?  Is there really anything they can say that will change your mind?

I'm not criticizing you, btw.  I'm just asking you what you expect these people to do for you.  They probably tallied your objection and that was that.  Mission accomplished.

self,
Asking a question, I want an answer. I'm learning not to expect getting one from my Representative's offices, but when I call I ask and wait for a response. Most of the call is taken up by silence. They ask me; "Anything else?", and I ask for a response. When they don't have one, I ask why they would support a Bill that provides benefits to former criminals, and the criminals they hire, that citizens of the US don't enjoy? After more silence the next thing I usually hear is a dial tone. Its the excuse I use to call back, and today's tactic is to take it one point at a time and relate it to workers who are citizens of the US.

This fight isn't for me or my generation. It's my kids and their progeny which will have to work in an exploitive worker environment. I don't have anywhere near the money of Senator Kennedy or the Corporate connections of President Bush to favor logical results this Bill will generate.

Where I in living in Massachusetts I'd be on the phone every day to ask Senator Kennedy's staff to comment why this Bill should be considered different than the Bill he sponsored and was passed in 1986 that caused him to say; "This Bill will give amnesty to 1.1 to 1.3 Million illegal aliens. We shall secure the borders henceforth. We will never bring up an Amnesty Bill again." - Senator Ted Kennedy (1986 )

I'm considering buying billboard space to publish that quote.

Were our borders secure as promised back then, this Bill in 2007 would not be necessary. Who in their right mind would belief that any of the security or bureaucratic sections of this Bill will be enforced considering what occurred after 1986? This is the same man making this claim in 2007. AMAZING! Only assuming and counting on the submission of we the people would such a proposal get any consideration.
btw - I never see debate point in opposition as a "critique". If my points are valid they should stand up to challenge and challenge never comes from agreement.

(in reply to selfbnd411)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 11:57:40 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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Self, I think you're confusing one poll with another.
Did Jason Blair help write that article?
Most people do favor legal immigration but not illegal immigration.
The volume of calls to Senators offices about this current bill proves that people don't want illegal immigration or to reward illegal immigration with an amnesty.
Sen. Bunning of Kentucky said on CNN that his office has received 2,100 calls on this.
100 "for"
2,000 "against".
So that gives us an idea of what people think of this bill!
In S.C. I just got off the phone with Sen. Jim Demint's office and the staffer told me that the phone calls are running "85-90 to 1 against" this bill.
Not a lot of room for "doubt" there!
I believe a Senator's office much moreso than an editorial on the front page of the N.Y. Times any day of the week!
The NY.Times is so bad many people, myself included won't use it as a source anymore.
Why should they if you have to check their "sources?"
I'm really surprised that they're still in business.
One of their other "newspapers" The Boston Globe" is teetering on the edge with plunging subscription numbers.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/25/2007 12:04:48 PM >

(in reply to selfbnd411)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Most Americans Favor Immigration Bill - 5/25/2007 12:55:28 PM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
Most Americans don't know WTF is in the Immigration Bill first hand.
I'll cop to it myself I have not read the bill itself as yet. (I wonder if anyone who has posted about it here has?)
I have no doubt that tere are provissions of the bill that I will agree with and provissions I will dsagree with.

BTW meatcleaver it's not stopping the migration I'm interested in nor are most Americans interested in stopping the migration.
We are interested in having a measure of control over who migrates and who does not.
Let them migrate, I'm just interested in having them do so through legal means.
I have no illusion that the quotas for various origination countries needs to be reworked, nor that the law as it stands now is workable even if we had 3 times the control at the borders.

The System is out of step with reality and they are trying to band aid fix it instead of doing the hard work of doing it right.
a pox on all their houses.


(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 40
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