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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 12:14:37 AM

DixieAngel

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The first thing that comes to mind is that she wants to take all control and was jealous of the two of you.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 12:56:52 AM

robertolapiedra

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Hello MstrssScarlet. Mistakes happen. Accidents happen at work, home, sports any activity you can think of. With this said, the safest thing to do is to stop. After stopping, you are more able to get at the root of things for better prevention the next time. One "rarely" regrets stopping as a mistake. The worst that can happen is getting a reputation of being "overly" protective.

I don't think you had any "fun" continuing the scene and maybe your sub didn't either. Scening is mostly for pleasure, right? I do not think you would be posting "should have I continued?" if you had stopped. Chalk one up to experience, and make it up to sub...this is a great learning opportunity for him also. RL.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 1:49:33 AM

MaamJay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet

At a recent play party, I attended with my collared submissive and a domme friend of his. I'd met her once before and we got along pretty well. It was agreed that all three of us would be playing together that night. No sooner did we get my submissive secured when the other domme stepped up behind him. I watched in horror as she raked her long, sharp nails down his back - breaking the skin. My sub never used his safe word, but I was not happy with what she had done (to say the least). Because he hadn't used his safe word and they were close friends, I did not pull her off right away. I redirected her to some different play that was within the limits of my sub and I. I played very lightly with him the rest of the evening on account of her actions. I apologized to my submissive for not protecting him from this, but I didn't even have time to react. SHE has since called him and apologized, but has not contacted me as he requested.
It's too late for me to do anything but refuse to allow her to play with him again. My question is: What would YOU have done? No criticism required here...I already feel terrible about what happened and learned my lesson with this particular domme.
Mistress Scarlet

From this and Your subsequent posts that I could read (for some strange reason, page 2 of this thread wouldn't load completely!), here's My take on the whole situation:

The core blame lies squarely with the "other Domme". Here's why:
(a) She was the only one who knew what She intended to do ie rake Her nails down his back and break the skin, drawing blood. You are not a mind-reader. From what You said, it seems that play was discussed ... no doubt some things were agreed upon eg obviously it was known that You would be securing Your sub. It's not always feasible to mention everything that might be off-limits if You have no idea that it might be under consideration. It's up to the stranger playing with someone else's sub to suggest to the Owner what they might be interested in doing and asking whether that will be OK or not. She did not.

(b) She has attended play parties before and should be aware of the protocols that typically exist in such venues. Most take a pretty dim view of the random drawing of blood! In fact some stipulate no blood whatsoever and therefore preclude activities such as needle play. Others allow it only in certain parts of the Dungeon with certain precautions such as sterile wipes, plastic drop sheets etc etc. I would be surprised if the venue You were attending didn't have SOME rule in place about blood. Therefore it is highly likely She was also breaking a Dungeon protocol. That would have fetched a stiff warning in Our play parties, especially when it was with someone else's sub and NOT discussed play. She would have been ejected for that.

(c) Drawing blood is such a common limit that it is an arrogant person who leaps in and does that as their very first action of play without asking first. Any Dominant with integrity would not do such a thing. That She did it as Her opening gambit with no lead up (such as gently running Her nails over His skin and gradually increasing the pressure which would have given You and he a chance to speak up) shows Me this was no accident, but a deliberately planned act of sabotage.

(d) I suspect Her motivation is jealousy and sour grapes. She has presumably seen this sub at parties and not bothered to pursue him. Then all of a sudden he turns up collared to You and presumably being a great sub. "Dammit, I missed out! Maybe I can cause them problems, get him to turn away from Her" could easily be the motivation here.

This is not to say I entirely absolve You ... well, I'll bet it's a limit You won't forget to mention in the future! But I can easily understand how it was overlooked. And if You didn't have time to react, neither did Your sub, so the suggestion by another poster that he should have used his safeword is a bit fatuous! he was probably even more gobsmacked than You! And a sub is generally less wired to speak up than a Dominant as he is hesitant to lose face, look weak etc. Also, was he openly privy to what discussions did occur between You and She regarding play? I'm not criticising here, I don't like to reveal EVERYTHING I'm about to do to a sub as it totally removes the element of surprise which can be half the fun. But if You and She had talked separately from him, he could even have thought this was intentional, and that might have taken him a bit to process. Or maybe he was wondering if the intensity was accidental and She just meant to scratch him more lightly. Fortunately it seems that he is a mature sub who has subsequently processed this very well and You and he can use this as a valuable learning experience.

As a general note, what this demonstrates is
* don't be so trusting in terms of allowing others to play with Your sub.
* specifically ask what someone else is intending to do as well as conducting a discussion about limits.
* safewords don't protect someone from a sudden attack, they are really only useful in play that escalates in intensity.
* be very familiar with the protocols of the place in which You are playing. This gives You more clout should something untoward occur.

It would appear You didn't report this to the Dungeon Monitors at the time. This is a great shame for generally they are very concerned about what happens in their space. While I understand You didn't want to create an instant bad scene, You should have had a word to someone there about it at Your first opportunity once Your sub was safely under Your control and away from Her. For all You know, She may have done this kind of thing before and this might be the "3rd strike" they were waiting for to tell Her "That's it! you're out, you're not welcome here anymore". You might have thought it wasn't a serious enough breach of their protocols, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but that's for them to judge.

I do wish You and Your sub the very best in the future.
Maam Jay

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 2:13:19 AM

MaamJay

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Ah, page 2 finally decided to open so I read the rest of Your posts! I still stand by what I have said, though it seems no real blood was drawn, the skin being opened is still a potential for infection. And it was still an unwanted and unwarranted act which She had ample time to have discussed with You over dinner and didn't. I still think the DMs would have been interested to note that She has a tendency to inappropriate behaviour. I'm hoping that maybe some who have heaped the blame entirely on Your head might stop and consider what I've said and re-think about how feasible it really was for You to have prevented this. I can see why You chose to continue, I think there are sound arguments for continuing and others for stopping, You made the best choice You could at the time and effectively prevented further harm coming to Your sub.

Again, all the best
Maam Jay

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 3:12:35 AM

MistressRouge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owned1

As others have said, first off stop beating yourself up over this. Take this as a lesson learned and move forward.

I would have stopped the scene, removed my submissive from the situation and ensured they were ok. I would have then spoken with the Dominant and explained my displeasure.

With the resultant activity of her calling your sub and not you even with his insistance I would also concur with others that she is attempting to move in on your territory. I would demand that your sub has no further communication of any type with this particular Dominant until and only if she communicates with you and you both clear the air. Even then I would suggest great caution with any contact with my property.

In all walks of life there are those who are only interested in others property, she may just be one of those.

Take care

Owned

I agree 100% with this post, My thought exactly.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 6:09:41 AM

goodpet

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I have had somewhat simular things happen, Even with negotiations. What is one person 'light' spankings are 'medium hard' to another.. Sometimes thing happen too fast and unexpeted.

only thing i can see doing different is my scene would have ended right then with the other person. but that is because i am a whimp and that much pain would have done me in.. LOL

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 6:26:18 AM

LadyPact

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I did already post to this thread. Not really a change of opinion to My prior post, since the title was "What would you do?" but just an added disclaimer.

It did take some courage on the part of the OP to bring this up for discussion. It's tough to say, ok, I might have messed up here, but I'd like feedback. I may have neglected to do this in My original response, but thank you for bringing the discussion topic. Not only did you get to learn this lesson, but maybe some others learned something from it, too, if they haven't co-topped (general term) before. It might have helped those who have yet to experience it for what to think of when they do.

As I said, not really changing My original answer, but appreciate the OP.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 8:12:57 AM

Sicarius

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MstrssScarlet:

Although I have seen it touched upon in some other posts, the only point that I really see as being worth reiterating is that you make absolutely certain that your sub is okay. Obviously you have said that the physical damage was minute or inconsequential, and that's good. I assume that you have a very strong bond with your sub and have some sense of his thoughts and feelings, but in my experience all human beings have layers that they may or may not want to unravel at a given time. I could very easily see your sub wanting to "seem strong" for you right now because he knows that you were panicked by what happened -- even if he is doing so at the cost of covering up his own feelings. Many of the submissives I have dealt with in the past were very sacrificial in this way, and I have no doubt that you know what I mean.

If you have not already done so, have a very long, open, and honest conversation with him. Make absolutely certain that he is okay physically, mentally, and emotionally -- be strong, and make it apparent that you care for his well being first and foremost so that the topic can be broached more effectively. After you have made absolutely certain that he is fine, that is when I feel that you should switch back into "Domme mode" and make whatever decisions you feel are best with regard to future play with this person. I don't know the specifics as to whether or not this was something that had been previously negotiated, but you do need to think very carefully about how she acted and what "liberties" she took in doing so. You would be fully within your rights to declare that no further sessions shall take place with her, and if you genuinely feel as though you or your sub are at risk from such a session ... that's what I would encourage you to to.

Best wishes, and I hope that both you and he are okay.

-Sicarius

< Message edited by Sicarius -- 5/27/2007 8:13:46 AM >

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 9:24:05 AM

MstrssScarlet

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Thanks again for most of the postings here. MaamJay, your post was excellent. Not because you initially blamed the other domme, but you were supportive yet tactful when pointing out things that I and others may consider in the future when confronted with this type of situation. Sometimes how you say something can be more important than what you say. I always found that if I yelled at my son about something, he simply shut down and refused to listen. However, if I sat down and quietly reasoned with him, he would listen to what I had to say and then take it under consideration.
For everyone: Believe me, I have had many discussions with my submissive since this happened. We've both had a lot of experience in the lifestyle and have a VERY strong bond between us. When I talked to him, it was not a domme to sub conversation IMO. It was more like one friend to another with a lot of concern on my part that he was ok. I have protected him from people in the past that I knew he was leary of, but with this domme being a long time friend, it put a new spin on things. At this point, he seems even more angry with her than I am. Although I've already made it clear that she will never be allowed to play with him again, I get the feeling that their friendship is so damaged that it won't matter what I say anymore. I can't speak for her intentions or state of mind, but it's a shame that this one act ruined a long standing relationship.
Mistress Scarlet

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"Say, that hurts a little bit" "And you don't like to be hurt do ya?" "I don't know...kinda fun sometimes if it's done in the right spirit."
Jean Harlow in The Beast of the City

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 9:32:13 AM

Lordandmaster

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Just wondering--honest question here--does he come to you for protection? Most male subs that I've noticed are attracted to dommes for the physical stimulation. But I've seen a few posts where a domme or a male sub say that it's the domme's responsibility to protect the male sub. Are there many male subs who seek that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet

When I talked to him, it was not a domme to sub conversation IMO. It was more like one friend to another with a lot of concern on my part that he was ok. I have protected him from people in the past that I knew he was leary of, but with this domme being a long time friend, it put a new spin on things.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 10:31:30 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

My sub never used his safe word, but I was not happy with what she had done (to say the least). Because he hadn't used his safe word and they were close friends, I did not pull her off right away. I redirected her to some different play that was within the limits of my sub and I.

Mistress Scarlet,
Subjecting yourself in an open forum to criticism speaks to your confidence. Our regards to you!

In answer to your question; if I had been so wrong in my judgment of trust in a person regarding beth in a similar situation I know I would have initiated action best described as non-consensual impact play.

L&M brings up a point regarding the male sub psyche but the situation also adds to my collection of the examples of safe-words and limits not working. In a situation where you and your submissive obviously have and use limits and safe-words if they were not in play here and were not used, then when would they? You've documented a situation that you regretted shouldn't the safe word have prevented that?

I would make a point that, beth and I - without safe-words and limits, could have and most likely would have had the exact same experience. That is really the point; safe-words and limits never replace trust or protect you from misplaced trust. Bad judgment, or misplaced trust can happen, people fool you. Blame yourself for an appropriate period of time and move on. If I would suggest "doing" anything - reconsider the safety of 'safe-words' and negotiated 'limits'.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 12:43:08 PM

Suleiman

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Aside from possibly blurting out, more as a reflex than a considered action, something to the effect of "Whoa - NOT cool!", I think I'd have done pretty much the same as you did. You have to let your guard down once in a while, and one would presume this person had been more-or-less pre screened.

Well, okay. If bloodletting was a pre-established hard limit, I think I would have stopped the scene, untied the sub, and applied alcohol and bandages while explaining to this person why that wasn't appropriate, but I think it would take me a minute to get that far. If it wasn't a hard limit, and no safeword was used, I think I would still check with the sub, sotto voce, just to make sure this was okay before letting things go much further.

Of course, I am very protective of what's mine, and have very little tolerance for folks that don't seem to get the concept of sharing. Still, I would try to keep in mind that this could just be a basic miscommunication - in spite of whcih, this isn't the sort of thing I'd back down about. Not cool is not cool, and messing up somebody else's plaything is just not cool.

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Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 2:42:47 PM

MstrssScarlet

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In most situations, my submissive actually feels protective of me. He's of the old school and feels that it's his place to watch over me as a woman. I must admit that I kinda like this. In the dungeon, it depends on the situation. He's aware of certain health issues I have and in between play sessions he will often turn to me and ask if I'm ok.
During play is when the roles reverse. Yes, we use safewords but I don't rely on them. I try to watch his body language and talk to him all the way through the session. Sometimes I may just get up close to his ear and ask him how he's doing if I'm in doubt. If I'm pushing him a bit hard that evening, he will usually 'plead' with me when he's had just about enough and I judge whether to lighten up or stop altogether.
Mistress Scarlet

_____________________________

"Say, that hurts a little bit" "And you don't like to be hurt do ya?" "I don't know...kinda fun sometimes if it's done in the right spirit."
Jean Harlow in The Beast of the City

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 2:51:19 PM

LightHeartedMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet

At a recent play party, I attended with my collared submissive and a domme friend of his. I'd met her once before and we got along pretty well. It was agreed that all three of us would be playing together that night. No sooner did we get my submissive secured when the other domme stepped up behind him. I watched in horror as she raked her long, sharp nails down his back - breaking the skin. My sub never used his safe word, but I was not happy with what she had done (to say the least). Because he hadn't used his safe word and they were close friends, I did not pull her off right away. I redirected her to some different play that was within the limits of my sub and I. I played very lightly with him the rest of the evening on account of her actions. I apologized to my submissive for not protecting him from this, but I didn't even have time to react. SHE has since called him and apologized, but has not contacted me as he requested.
It's too late for me to do anything but refuse to allow her to play with him again. My question is: What would YOU have done? No criticism required here...I already feel terrible about what happened and learned my lesson with this particular domme.
Mistress Scarlet

I would have reacted exactly the same as you had at the time and with the same result with a followup
post-mortem with the submissive. Maybe he WANTED that much contact. Find out where his head was at.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 3:01:35 PM

Celeste43

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If someone did that to me with my dom by my side, I hope and expect that he would slap the other person's hand away and told them in no uncertain terms never to touch me again.

Deliberate blood letting? Hope you sent him to the doctor to be inspected and tested. And send her the bill for the visit and any follow up treatment.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 3:03:43 PM

EvilGeoff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: goodpet
... that is because i am a whimp and that much pain would have done me in.. LOL

If that's the goodpet _I_ know... someone is telling a fib! *LOL*

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 3:22:07 PM

EvilGeoff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet

At a recent play party, I attended with my collared submissive and a domme friend of his...

My question is: What would YOU have done?

Prior to the scene? I would've clearly established the hard limits of play, ie: No scat, no blood, etc. Then a general outline of the how the scene will progress - "We'll start with stripping him, then binding him to the spanking bench, then start warming him up with slaps on the ass... He likes sting so that whippy little crop of yours would be the next thing to step up with..." etc.

If she busted out of the negotiated parameters of limits, or the scene outline like that with my property? Scene over. I'll call red at that point because it's obvious that the co-top either #1 - doesn't respect MY property and wishes, and by extension, doesn't respect me. Or #2 - is grossly inexperienced and has no clue what a ramp-up is.

In any case, the way you handled the situation, while not the way I would have done it, isn't necessarily wrong, or bad, or good... It's just the way you handled it. *shrugs* I'm not going to sit in judgement because even with all the back and forth messages, we still haven't heard if this broke a hard limit, what EXACTLY was negotiated beforehand, if your sub actually enjoyed being raked, etc. You've done a good job of not answering those questions so far.

So I'm not going to beat up anyone... Yet! *weg* Unless they ask nice.

< Message edited by EvilGeoff -- 5/27/2007 3:23:23 PM >

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 4:08:55 PM

SadisticMan

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I couldn't imagine going that far that fast with another's sub. The polite
thing for her to do was to take a back seat for a few minutes and see
how the scene would progress and discuss anything more than a flogging
or a simliar light impact with the Owner.

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 8:12:53 PM

MstrssScarlet

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Quote from EvilGeoff: I'm not going to sit in judgement because even with all the back and forth messages, we still haven't heard if this broke a hard limit, what EXACTLY was negotiated beforehand, if your sub actually enjoyed being raked, etc. You've done a good job of not answering those questions so far.

Probably because I don't feel it's anyone's business except for those involved in the scenario. I stated what happened and clarified the situation at least twice already. Enough is enough.
Mistress Scarlet

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RE: What Would YOU Do? - 5/27/2007 9:00:12 PM

EvilGeoff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssScarlet
Probably because I don't feel it's anyone's business except for those involved in the scenario. I stated what happened and clarified the situation at least twice already.

Good evening Mistress Scarlett,

Unfortunately, when someone asks "What would YOU do?" I like to have complete information regarding the scenario before giving more indepth speculation about what exactly else I might do. You may feel you've "clarified" the situation as much as you are comfortable with in a public forum, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you haven't answered those questions to my satisfaction, so i'm reserving further judgement/advice/speculation.

No more, no less. You opened the door by asking what we would do in the given situation, I would like more information before going any further in pondering the question. Again, I didn't see anything bad or wrong in how you said you dealt with it. It's not what I would have done. No biggie.

Safe journeys, wherever they may take you and yours,
- Geoff

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