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RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 2:12:13 AM

ennaozzie

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My children I love unconditionally, even when they do badly, I may not tolerate or condone what they have done and I have had to back off and let them learn but I till love them no matter what.

When it comes to a partner it’s different with a partner I have to respect them before I could even consider someone a partner, and if I loose respect, I may still love them but I can not bring myself to have a sexual relationship with them if I have lost respect.

The only other way I can have sex is if I am not with someone and its someone casual I don’t have to respect them or love them, but when it comes to a partner its different.

beanie

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 21

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 2:15:35 AM

Termyn8or

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I know a Mother who was thrown down and kicked, while pregnant, by her already born 14 year old daughter.

But that is not the point. The OP meant between spouses, mates, whatever.

OK, let's say your Man gets drunk, gets a poker game / party going and one of his drunk friends falls through your brand new sixty inch HDTV TV. Later you get on his case, but he is tired, a bit buzzed and not in a good mood (for some of the same reasons you are). He snaps. He grabs you by the neck and squeezes, he says "Shut the fuck up NOW bitch, and I really mean it". He scares you.

Has he killed your love for him ? It does not matter whether you are able and/or willing to call the cops on him. Do you still love him even though you have experienced his wrath and fear it now ?

If he cheats on you, is that better ? If he spends the bill money on drugs or gambling, is that better ?

Love, by definition is unconditional, but it is very rare. If you ever get it, don't abuse it. It is very rare indeed.

T

(in reply to Quivver)

Post #: 22

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 3:12:32 AM

StellaByStarlite

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Joined: 2/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I know a Mother who was thrown down and kicked, while pregnant, by her already born 14 year old daughter.

But that is not the point. The OP meant between spouses, mates, whatever.

OK, let's say your Man gets drunk, gets a poker game / party going and one of his drunk friends falls through your brand new sixty inch HDTV TV. Later you get on his case, but he is tired, a bit buzzed and not in a good mood (for some of the same reasons you are). He snaps. He grabs you by the neck and squeezes, he says "Shut the fuck up NOW bitch, and I really mean it". He scares you.

Has he killed your love for him ? It does not matter whether you are able and/or willing to call the cops on him. Do you still love him even though you have experienced his wrath and fear it now ?

If he cheats on you, is that better ? If he spends the bill money on drugs or gambling, is that better ?

Love, by definition is unconditional, but it is very rare. If you ever get it, don't abuse it. It is very rare indeed.

T

That really is a good point. And I think those scenarios have a lot to do with a diminishing of basic respect between mates, which imo is part and parcel of a loving relationship.

Now, if my husband did any of those to ME, I'd try like hell to work things out with him, through therapy, etc. But if he continued with the behavior, then yes, my love for him would eventually disappear. The mutual respect would be gone. So... I guess my love for him is conditional, lol.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 23

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 3:38:35 AM

lateralist1

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I offer unconditional love to my partners.
But if they want to keep me they have to want to change anything that I won't be able to stand long term.
I hope that makes sense.
Most of what I want them to change are things that are doing them harm.
Very occassionally it will be something just for my convenience or pleasure.

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 24

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 3:51:12 AM

StellaByStarlite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lateralist1

I offer unconditional love to my partners.
But if they want to keep me they have to want to change anything that I won't be able to stand long term.
I hope that makes sense.
Most of what I want them to change are things that are doing them harm.
Very occassionally it will be something just for my convenience or pleasure.

Well.... isn't that a condition, though?

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 25

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 3:51:48 AM

eroticangel

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Joined: 2/13/2006
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unconditional love is just that...unconditional, the relationship may end, but the love remains...i do believe unconditional love exists, i believe you can love someone unconditionally, but the depth of the love can change, for example, my ex Master, i love Him and i always will, the love i felt for Him will never end, it's unconditional...will i be with Him? NO! will i ever see Him again? NO! but, will i love Him, HELL YES. The things he taught me, the experiences we shared, the life we lived was excellent. i will always love Him, but, i will still seek love with another. So i guess what i am saying is that the love remains, unconditionally, but the dynamics of that love change. What i am saying makes sense to me, i hope it does to others.

roe

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 26

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 3:58:39 AM

StellaByStarlite

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As a side note, I think some people tend to think of "unconditional love" as the highest pinnacle of love and relationship that can be attained. Now that I think about it.. I actually would *want* any person in my life to have conditions. Like, respect, trust, etc. It just seems healthier that way.

The Mister loves me to the fullest, but it's conditional... he wouldn't tolerate abuse from me, he would lose respect if I continually behaved in a distructive manner. And that's a good thing.

Or maybe I'm just misinterpreting unconditional, I dunno.

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 27

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 4:10:36 AM

wideeyes

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This is an interesting point lateralist. I think most make the assumption that because the relationship changes that the love is gone. I can honestly say I still love almost everyone I've ever loved; and the ones I no longer love have done truly bad things to myself or others. The specific nature of any relationship (perhaps short of a familial one) always has conditions. But for me the base love does not.

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 28

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 4:33:58 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I think "unconditional love" is another one of those fairy tales we tell ourselves in order to make ourselves feel more secure. I don't believe there is such a thing, even between parents and children. There is ALWAYS something another person could do that would change your love for him or her.

This (together with HeavansKeeper's comment a few posts above) sums it up for me. I would really, really like to believe that unconditional love of the type Julia mentioned in the OP was real, even if unattainable for some. Sure, my love for my offspring is unconditional I'm pretty sure - even if one of them turned out to be a psychotic mass murderer I couldnt stop loving them, but a romantic partner is a whole different thing.

And I'm not sure its just an issue of trust being broken that might affect such a relationship. I believe its more about a person changing which shows us how conditional our romantic love is. We come into a long term romantic relationship with a person because they tick all our boxes - even if they do so only because we project onto them our desires in a perfect partner.

As time goes on, and things turn out not to be quite as we projected, our degree of love changes. As time goes on and the other person shows themselves to be not as perfect as we thought, our love changes. As time goes on and the world changes, so might our partner or our view of our partner by his/her reactions to the changes and our love changes. And these are just pretty ordinary examples which show that love is not a constant rather than that love is not unconditional, but in each example the love varies according to the conditions we initially set and which have been breached.

Ultimately I suppose, we cannot ever truly know another person so deeply and continuously that we can love them unconditionally. Everyone has secrets and a darker side which they know full well that in revelation would change everything. The question then is, can one love anyone truly, when one can never really know them?

E

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 29

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 5:03:53 AM

lateralist1

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Joined: 11/22/2006
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Thanks for pushing me on the concept.
I think we may be talking about different kinds of love.
Dominant love is different than submissive love.
Dominant love is knowing what's best for the relationship.
Again just like submission and dominance they are two sides of the same coin working together in harmony.
Just like strong subs chose to be submissive I chose to be dominant in most of my relationships because that's who I am and I want them to be natural.
I don't have to be if I don't want to be.
I chose to be submissive with my mother because that's who she needs me to be so that she can retain her independence and strength.Unconditional love.
Sometimes I chose to be submissive to a man in some ways bacause that's what he needs me to be and I can because I love him unconditionally.
Does that make me a switch?
No I am naturally dominant and I show it in the relationships when it is 'right' for the relationship.
If I tried to be my dominant self all the time it would wear me out and probably cause conflict in most of my relationships with men. Because most men like to think that they are naturally dominant even if they aren't lol. And when they are but want the goodies that being submissive brings they make a poor show of being submissive.
And yes if I can't be my naturally dominant self in a relationship where I think it's right for the relationship then the relationship ends. Doesn't mean that I have stopped loving the person unconditionally. It just means that we are not right for each other.
I hope that is clearer.

(in reply to wideeyes)

Post #: 30

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 5:21:59 AM

bandit25

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Not so sure that I agree with you lateralist. "Dominant love is knowing what's best for the relationship." I don't necessarily think that just because one is a dom s/he knows what's best for the relationship. S/he knows what's best for the relationship as s/he defines it and it's up to the submissive half to decide if that's best for her or him in the relationship also. That's not to say that every decision gets agonized over or talked to death. And sometimes the submissive half may just agree to go along with whatever the dominant half decides...that's OK too. But I have seen many, many relationships destroyed because the dominant half decided that it was "best" for the relationship to evolve to a poly or that he want's the submissive half to explore his or her bisexual side...stuff like that.

I'm not knocking your definition of dominant love...it's just not my definition.

Also, I'm curious as to how you would describe submissive love.

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 5/26/2007 5:24:03 AM >

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 31

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 5:47:05 AM

puella

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Joined: 12/2/2004
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I believe you can. I think I have.

Given that, even though you love someone without conditions... it does not mean everything from that point on is happiness and joy, or that just loving them is enough.

To love someone without repercussions or contingincies can be very perilous, just as it can be profoundly beautiful.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 32

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 5:49:36 AM

mnottertail

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Some times I feel I got to--uh uh---
run away----

All you need is love.

John Lennon

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 33

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 5:56:57 AM

imthatacheyouhav

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I REALLY hate to sound like a nay sayer...i normally dont as a matter of fact....but Pure..unconditional love doesnt exsist...not between adults i mean...we are human...we will ALWAYS put a condition on love even if we dont see it or mean to or even know we did it......as for love between you and your kids kinda thing...i think that may be as close as you CAN get to that uncondtional love stuff...for me anyway...
*the above opinion is that of the poster and in no way reflects the views of the kinky public at large*

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(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 34

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 6:25:36 AM

lateralist1

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Great posts all. It's the perilous nature of unconditional love that makes it so so beautiful.
I agree that some people's dominant love is selfish.
I have been told so often by men that they want me to be selfish, and sadistic.
And yes I believe that is what they want but I don't give people what they want I give them what they need. Noone should be in a relationship that doesn't meet their basic need for love.
You can't make someone love you.
You can make them behave how you want them to that's all.
And even that's difficult to do when they are not with you.

(in reply to imthatacheyouhav)

Post #: 35

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 12:09:30 PM

Sinergy

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"I'll fill your bagpipes with Wheatina"
Bill Murray, Caddyshack.

Kinda says it all about unconditional love, really.

Sinergy

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(in reply to ennaozzie)

Post #: 36

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 12:17:29 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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For me it is simply that I will always experience a state of loving the other person no matter what occurs or doesn't occur.

As I always say- love can be unconditional, relationships shouldn't be.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 37

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 12:26:17 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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It most certainly is possible to love someone unconditionally. I myself have done it (I know.. Sounds impossible.. But it is true). You can love no matter what. Now, that can change forms I suppose, especially if the person cheats on you, but it is almost impossible to kill true love. I still love my ex-wife.. .But I would never reconcile with her if she was the last person on earth.

Think about it though.. Even if the person cheats on you.. And you truly love them.. That love will always remain. You might not stay "in love with them"... But you will always love them if you truly did to begin with. You will not put conditions on the love.. But you will almost undoubtedly put conditions on the relationship.

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 38

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 2:07:42 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I think "unconditional love" is another one of those fairy tales we tell ourselves in order to make ourselves feel more secure. I don't believe there is such a thing, even between parents and children. There is ALWAYS something another person could do that would change your love for him or her.

This (together with HeavansKeeper's comment a few posts above) sums it up for me. I would really, really like to believe that unconditional love of the type Julia mentioned in the OP was real, even if unattainable for some. Sure, my love for my offspring is unconditional I'm pretty sure - even if one of them turned out to be a psychotic mass murderer I couldnt stop loving them, but a romantic partner is a whole different thing.

And I'm not sure its just an issue of trust being broken that might affect such a relationship. I believe its more about a person changing which shows us how conditional our romantic love is. We come into a long term romantic relationship with a person because they tick all our boxes - even if they do so only because we project onto them our desires in a perfect partner.

As time goes on, and things turn out not to be quite as we projected, our degree of love changes. As time goes on and the other person shows themselves to be not as perfect as we thought, our love changes. As time goes on and the world changes, so might our partner or our view of our partner by his/her reactions to the changes and our love changes. And these are just pretty ordinary examples which show that love is not a constant rather than that love is not unconditional, but in each example the love varies according to the conditions we initially set and which have been breached.

Ultimately I suppose, we cannot ever truly know another person so deeply and continuously that we can love them unconditionally. Everyone has secrets and a darker side which they know full well that in revelation would change everything. The question then is, can one love anyone truly, when one can never really know them?

E

while i agree with the point that you cannot truly love without truly knowing, i disagree that one person can never truly know another (did i throw enough "truly"s in there? lol). i also think that you can know...completely know...another person without knowing literally everything about them. the thing is, if you know them, then you know what they are capable of, who they are, their motivations, etc., so that even the things you may not know about them are not surprising and fit into the greater picture of who you know and understand them to be. i have no secrets from my Master...he knows all my ugliness and skeletons. i do know he has a few secrets from me, which i suspect he is saving for a rainy day in his old age. but whatever they are...maybe he spent time in prison, or raped an UM, or committed murder...i can tell you that they would not surprise me, and they would not in the least change the love i have for him.

i do believe in unconditional love, however i think it's a very rare thing. people speak of unconditional love being natural from parent to child, however i would say that a parent's love is often the most conditional, and it is rare you find a parent who does not place expectations or hopes upon their offspring that when not met, the love will not diminish or falter.

my Master and i love one another unconditonally...it certainly wasn't instant, it took us probably close to 3 years to get to that point, but this is where we are. we can both say and know with confidence that each of us will always deeply love the other, no matter what. one poster mentioned that love is based on trust...i disagree with this. for me love is based on something intangible, hard to define. it doesn't need concrete reasons or special circumstances. it just is, or it isn't. that is how it is for me anyhow. in the nearly 7 yrs Daddy and i have been together, the depth of our love just continues to grow, to the point it frightens us both sometimes. does that mean that we always like one another? heck no, lol...but the love is, and always will be, unwavering.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 39

RE: Unconditional Love - 5/26/2007 4:22:05 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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Hi Julia,

I haven't read all the posts but I have new opinions regarding unconditional love. I used to believe in it; I no longer do. I loved my husband of 20 years despite the abuse, despite divorcing him, despite many things. Love was love, I thought, and even if I couldn't have him in my life, I would still love him in my own way. And then he went and stole all of my recently deceased Father's things from me, and has kept them hostage...things like his entire music collection, and old newspaper write ups of my Grandfathers, and dug up all my Grandmothers Irises (she died just a few years ago and gave me her "famous" Irises) and took them, too.

Let me tell you, anything I ever felt for him is dead now.

I believe all love has conditions. This doesn't mean I'm going to present a list of requirements that someone has to meet in order for me to love him. But it means that if the person turns vile and evil, it is very likely my heart will completely shut off to him. A person can only tolerate so much before those rarely seen conditions come to the surface and the heart closes for good.

It's still a tender topic for me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 40

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