quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Saying someone is wrong and saying they want to lose are two different things ;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Saying someone is wrong and saying they want to lose are two different things ;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
No one seems to be intelligent enough to think for themselves. That's sad. And we wonder why it was so easy for Nazis to take over Germany? A little propaganda, fear, and intimidation will have the population doing anything you want
Absolutely true.  i think this quote is particularly telling:
 
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That
is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. It works the same way in any country" - Herman Goering at the
Nuremberg trials.

slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411
Were they defeated?  After all, four years ago they said they wanted to be one thing, and that didn't happen. I'd say they started off with imperfect knowledge.  Four years of experience showed them the true path, and they are pursuing it. 
Yes, i've always seen it as a sign of intelligence and wisdom to be able to admit you started off with imperfect knowledge, as you say, and then to learn, grow, and eventually have the courage to change one's mind/path.  Emerson said "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."  If one is never willing to admit the need to change one's orginal opinion/plan/path, they will continue to go in a direction that is no longer right/appropriate for them.  Or, to put it in Bush's terms, they will continue to "stay the course," regardless of how unsuitable and ill-advised that may now be......slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Well they are if you believe Bush's rhetoric!


As Democrats Collapse on Iraq, NYT/CBS Poll Finds Public More Antiwar Than Ever

By E&P Staff

Published: May 25, 2007 11:45 AM ET

NEW YORK -- Just hours after the Democrats in Congress threw in the towel on trying to force a timetable -- or some other measure -- for a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, The New York Times and CBS released their latest national poll show antiwar sentiment in the country only growing.

"Americans now view the war in Iraq more negatively than at any time since the invasion more than four years ago," the Times reports today.

-- 61% say the United States should have stayed out of Iraq

-- 76% say things are going badly there, including 47% who say things are going very badly.

-- Only 30% approve of the job President Bush is doing overall.

-- 76%, including 51% of Republicans, say additional troops sent to Iraq this year by Bush either have had no impact or are making things worse.

-- 63% say the United States should set a date for withdrawing troops from Iraq sometime in 2008.

The nationwide telephone poll was conducted Friday through Wednesday with 1,125 adults. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus three percentage points.

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003590655

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ORIGINAL: selfbnd411
Who says that leaving means defeat?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411
Who says that leaving means defeat?

Do you really mean that? The Arabs view any withdrawl, concession, peace deal, cease fire, as a sign of weakness and defeat for their enemies.  And for them it is only a hudna, a time to rearm, recruit, and reorganize until they break it, becasue the Quran prohibits them from making a permanent peace deal with infidels.  If we leave, which is surrendering, especially in the eyes of our enemies, they will only start the war again, on the battlefield of their choosing, like New York or Washington for instance. Or maybe our African Embassies, or a US Warship, or US barracks in Saudi Arabia....wait those already happened.

When is the left going to wake up and recognized the threat posed by the Terrorists in the Arab world? Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Hizbollah, Hamas, Isalic Jihad, Al-Qaeda, etc...  These are not harmless little cults, they are extremely dangerous and will continue to murder and destroy at will until they are stopped. Hell we should have taken care of Iran after the hostage crisis two decades ago.

As long as we fight in Iraq, we are not fighting on US soil. To me that is enough of a victory to justify the war.

As for those of you that want to set a date for retreat, When has a country at war EVER told their enemy when they were planning to retreat?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54
Do you really mean that? The Arabs view any withdrawl, concession, peace deal, cease fire, as a sign of weakness and defeat for their enemies.  And for them it is only a hudna, a time to rearm, recruit, and reorganize until they break it, becasue the Quran prohibits them from making a permanent peace deal with infidels. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411
Who says that leaving means defeat?

Do you really mean that? The Arabs view any withdrawl, concession, peace deal, cease fire, as a sign of weakness and defeat for their enemies. And for them it is only a hudna, a time to rearm, recruit, and reorganize until they break it, becasue the Quran prohibits them from making a permanent peace deal with infidels. If we leave, which is surrendering, especially in the eyes of our enemies, they will only start the war again, on the battlefield of their choosing, like New York or Washington for instance. Or maybe our African Embassies, or a US Warship, or US barracks in Saudi Arabia....wait those already happened.