RE: Same-sex marriage (Full Version)

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SirKenin -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/24/2005 9:52:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

quote:

Further, God denounces the act of homosexuality (although I believe abstinent homosexuals are exempt).

quote:

See, it is not the homosexual I have a problem with (I have several homosexual/lesbian friends and have dated bisexual and bi-curious females), it is the actions that I can not condone, and I believe homosexual marriage is condoning those actions.



Forgive me in advance if I come across a little rude.
However... I do take issue with someone using the name of God or anyone else for that matter, to justify their own negativity.

But it isn't up to you to have a problem. It isn't up to you to condone. It is up to your to be open and to love.

God passes judgement - not a man.

If you have problem with homosexuality - take it to God, don't argue a point that in essence is insulting to an individuals freedom of choice.

He who cast the first stone etc.... Take a look at your profile


Homosexuality is denounced in two places in the New Testament, with the practitioners being sentenced to hell. Paul speaks on Gods behalf in both 1 Cor and 1 Timothy. Sooo.. It is not Me speaking, it is God, through Paul. I am just reiterating the facts, which does not take any kind of prophet to do.

You have the freedom of choice all you want. With that you also inherit the responsibility to accept the consequences of your actions.

I have no interest in sentencing A/anyone to hell or promising T/them eternal life. That is between the P/person and God, it has nothing to do with Me.

quote:

Interests (click for descriptions):

Living Expenses Provided
Watersports
Naked / Collar & Cuffs
Tattoos
Fisting
Wax Play


May I suggest some reading?

Leviticus 19:28 - any version

It isn't your place to condone via God, when your own desires are under question of His instruction.

Peace and Love


Leviticus does not apply to Me, nor any other Christian. Paul has exempted U/us from Deuteronomic Law, stating that W/we are now under grace as opposed to the Law.



darkinshadows -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 2:44:37 AM)

quote:

Leviticus does not apply to Me, nor any other Christian


Wow... I will remember that next time I read the old testament. Is it just me, or does anyone see the irony in this statement? *makes a note - Old Testement does not apply to Christianity - remember to tear out all pages and ignore.

quote:

Paul has exempted U/us from Deuteronomic Law



Jesus saves - yes. However - Just because you believe in Jesus, doesn't make you exempt from sin. Your concept is flawed - Paul didn't 'make' people exempt - He spoke of a personal responsibility even though one is saved through Christ. (A concept you, yourself have stated).

Ah well - May as well ignore the commandments then - ah - but they are mentioned I hear you gasp - but so was most of the old testement within the new.*sticks back in OT pages again - hurridly!

Christianity doesn't follow Paul - it follows God.

Pick and choose the text that suit? I am sure whatever works for you... but Gods Will be done for any christian.

Peace and Love

edited - because I just sounded extremely silly(and angry - lol) in the last post - not that this posts doesn't but hey - and christians wonder why non christians are skeptical?[:D](btw - the darker text is the original post i made before the edit... )



SirKenin -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 9:39:07 AM)

I do not think you understand the point of OT Law Myself. OT Law was written to show the Jews of the time that they had no hope of salvation on their own. It was designed to show them there was another way. The Scribes and Pharisees oppressed the Jews by holding them to every letter of the Law, exactly as you are trying to do to Me. One major reason Jesus came to earth was to eliminate their oppression and give the Jews a way to salvation, and that was through a saving knowledge of Jesus. Truly Jesus fulfilled the Law by showing them that applying a bunch of rules would not save them, but grace would. This is why the Scribes and Pharisees hated Jesus so much and pushed to have him crucified as a heretic.



SirKenin -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 9:40:46 AM)

Incidentally, in the New Testament W/we are given a bunch of guidelines to follow to help U/us in O/our walk.



darkinshadows -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 11:23:27 AM)

Yes... Jesus wasn't around to save the gentiles - but the jews - so - if you want to be reall picky and exact - you are in fact, jewish - but thats another thread entirely...[;)]

Just because Jesus saves - doesn't make anything you do or say null and void - it doesn't 'excuse you' from sin. You still have the personal choice. Jesus isn't an excuse to ignore the scriptures. Saying that Leviticus is irrelvant to Christians(or Jews[;)]) is surmount to blasphemy. If it was irrelevant - Jesus wouldn't have used the Old Testament as examples of the word of God. Jesus was God - at least that is what christianity teaches - he said that rules were not a way to salvation - but your analagy of it is a poor example, for ignoring Gods words.

A person can't get to heaven and say - 'well, geez - I believed in Jesus - everythings fine - all that stuff I did, I did with the best intentions, so I gotta get in.'

People can get around everything if they want to within biblical text - be it about not marking or piercing the body - or - homosexuality. Who made homosexuals? Who gave them life? In fact - from a christian point of view - is their such a thing as good and evil? Can that which is created be manipulated - or is humanity in fact, perfection? If a man is a woman from the inside - and lives to that desire - who is to say he/she isn't fulfilling Gods creation?

It isn't up to you, or any other religious person to condone or condem another for their choice. What they choose is between them and God. Nothing more - nothing less.

You don't like it for you? Thats your choice - but to claim its wrong in Gods eyes when you refuse to accept Gods words because 'you believe in Jesus' is, in itself, a form of heresy.

Ultimately - a person gains entrance to the kingdom of heaven knowing Jesus, listening to Gods words and realising ones own sin.

Peace and Love



perverseangelic -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 12:45:56 PM)

Ok, it's been a while since I was in Sunday school, but when I left my undersatnding was this--Jesus said that christians, his followers, should follow his words and not any other law, including the old testament law.

He went over many of the old laws and altered them some.

As far as I know, Jesus made no mention of homosexualityat all. He -did- have something to say about people who re-marry after divorces.

Regardless, this is neither here nor there, because it's based on Christian law. Invoking Christian law as a reason for making public policy feels pretty much like abridging someone else's practice of their religion.



darkinshadows -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 1:10:45 PM)

quote:

Regardless, this is neither here nor there, because it's based on Christian law. Invoking Christian law as a reason for making public policy feels pretty much like abridging someone else's practice of their religion.


Amen to that!
*Sorry - I couldn't resist...[sm=lol.gif]*



darkinshadows -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 1:35:18 PM)

quote:

Ok, it's been a while since I was in Sunday school, but when I left my undersatnding was this--Jesus said that christians, his followers, should follow his words and not any other law, including the old testament law.

He went over many of the old laws and altered them some.


What one is taught depends upon what others wish you to believe. It is taught within most fundemental christianity that the only way is through Jesus. Of course, that part - for a christian(or is it jew?) is undeniable. But He didn't alter them - He made them accessable because Jesus was 'sent' to save the Jews. But Jesus also upheld the strength of the law. He was the law. He came to fulfil the laws.

quote:

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-20)


quote:

As far as I know, Jesus made no mention of homosexualityat all. He -did- have something to say about people who re-marry after divorces.


You are again, quite correct. In essence - if - people desire to claim that Jesus did speak of homosexuality specifically - then they would end up condemming themselves. Because what Jesus did do is to refere back to the Law - back to the Commandments - which - apparently - isn't applicable to christians.

Its a never ending eternal circle of
'he can - he does - wrong - i do - saved - i do - wrong - he does - he can'

Peace and Love



Lordandmaster -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 2:48:52 PM)

By taking seriously the argument that law in the United States should be based on an evangelical interpretation of St. Paul, this thread has totally gone off the deep end.

But I have one comment.

If the Old Testament doesn't apply anymore, why the fuck is everyone campaigning to keep the Ten Commandments on courthouse walls?

Lam



darkinshadows -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 3:57:43 PM)

*applauds, wolf whistles - then bows to his wisdom*
[:)]



Ssilver -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 7:04:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster


If the Old Testament doesn't apply anymore, why the fuck is everyone campaigning to keep the Ten Commandments on courthouse walls?

Lam


Because there are groups of very political and vocal Christians in this country that are actively working to make the 10 Commandments the law of the land.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 8:58:50 PM)

I think you missed the "If ..." part of that question.



Ssilver -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/25/2005 9:21:33 PM)

No, I saw it.

The OT still applies...the parts that Dobson wants, anyways [;)]



Lordandmaster -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/28/2005 3:48:51 PM)

Tax breaks? My real-estate taxes have gone up nearly 30% under the Bush Administration. Considering that most of the tax I pay comes in the form of real-estate tax, that's a lot more important to me than the chump change I get back on my personal income tax.

Maybe if the federal government would adequately fund its mandates, local governments wouldn't have to make up the difference in township and school taxes.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: pantera

Well cello, some things are more important than others.... having a strong person in the white house and our national security, along with keeping our tax breaks and getting even more of those are more important issues right now than what name is given to a relationship



SirKenin -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/28/2005 5:32:57 PM)

Because the Ten Commandments were incorporated by your forefathers into the original Law. Thou shalt not steal or murder A/anyone? There are roots there and there are those that are not actively and vindictively seeking to strip Christianity out of every facet of every day life that recognize the importance and origin of those documents.



Ssilver -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/28/2005 6:02:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Because the Ten Commandments were incorporated by your forefathers into the original Law. Thou shalt not steal or murder A/anyone?


Yes, because prohibitions against murder and property theft are exclusively Christian values, right?

You might want to think that through a little more...



SirKenin -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/28/2005 6:10:53 PM)

While perhaps not exclusively Christian, that is where your forefathers got them from. There is nothing to think through if you learned your history re: Laws and your Constitution.



Ssilver -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/28/2005 6:47:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

While perhaps not exclusively Christian, that is where your forefathers got them from. There is nothing to think through if you learned your history re: Laws and your Constitution.


There is a little bit of prior art there, you know.

How many of the 10 commandments are laws in the US anyways?



knees2you -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/28/2005 7:02:58 PM)

Hmmmm Yes Jesus Saves, but that is only part of the Equasion~~

Scientists can't find the missing link, because hmmm their isn't any~

Ecclesiastics10:11 says "If a snake bites before it is Charmed there
is no profit for the Charmer.."

Job33:12 says "But I tell, in this You are not right,
for God is Greater then man.

I have Gay friends and they always send me e~mails about
"How Forgiving God is."

Just as if to say it is ok, God will forgive us no matter how many times we sin~ Or how many times we do the same sin.~

I was a paganist, and a buddhist, and during those times I could never find any amswers to life Existance.

I watched the Special that said they could finally prove that Jesus
had died on the Cross. They didn't say He died for Our Sins, because You can't prove that.

But then the Bible says He did.

But then will just have to wait till the "Sheeps get seperated from the Goats~"

Sincerely, Ant



perverseangelic -> RE: Same-sex marriage (5/28/2005 7:58:01 PM)

Oh holy hell.

Regardless whether or not the 10 commandments are part of the constitution there is -still- an ammendement which prohibits abridgment of the practice of religion.

If government advocating a set of beliefs and making laws which protect those beliefs, and the beliefs espoused run counter to my religious beliefs, they are abridging my practice of religion.



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