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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/29/2005 8:08:28 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
To be honest, I thought the conversation had rather moved past that. I thought we were discussing the idea that something can be practically believable but not evidentially believable.

And I thought this discussion was about legalizing same-sex marriage.

I have to commend ex-Prime Minister of Canada Jean Chrétien. When approach by Jean-Paul II (may he rest in peace) to use his catholic conscience and not allow same-sex marriage in Canada, Chrétien's response was that not all Canadians was catholic and that he represented *all* Canadians and therefore had to do what was in the best interest of *all* Canadians. He stated that legalizing same-sex marriage, though it was not what his Catholic faith prescribed, was what his duty for upholding human rights and equity prescribed. He stated that if the Catholic Church didn't want to bless a same-sex union, that this was their prerogative. But that the Canadian courts would.

With all due respect to those who chose to have faith in a religion, you really need to understand that your faith is not the only one. Your church can refuse to recognize what ever it likes. As a patron of that Church, you can speak up to your leaders. But Human Rights and legislation has nothing to do with what any God or Godlike authority has said. It is about treating everyone on an equal footing. It's easy to deny rights to people when you have the upper hand. Try being the one persecuted for a change and see how it feels.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to perverseangelic)

Post #: 101

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/29/2005 9:02:42 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika]And also, for the record, you have misinterpreted every one of my words. perverseangelic on the other hand understood them perfectly.

- LA

Yes, of course...

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 102

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/29/2005 10:32:01 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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Yeah, this same-sex marriage discussion has gone the way of all other same-sex marriage discussions: to the world where a few religious types believe it's a sin and everyone else thinks it's fine.

That's why I'm confident that, in the end, gay marriage will be legalized throughout this union.

Lam

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 103

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/29/2005 10:34:45 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yeah, this same-sex marriage discussion has gone the way of all other same-sex marriage discussions: to the world where a few religious types believe it's a sin and everyone else thinks it's fine.

That's why I'm confident that, in the end, gay marriage will be legalized throughout this union.

Lam

It's sure been interesting though. I've had a great opportunity to focus my thoughts.

Now if we could just ban marriage all together....

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 104

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/29/2005 11:30:48 PM

knees2you

Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

And I stand my ground that this post has absolutely nothing to do with religion. It has to do with human rights.

Lets just say Moses was out of His mind~ {Hypatheticaly}

Lets say he was talking to Himself and got Answers
From Himself???

I Then admit to doing the samething, and let me tell
You, I've come up with some Awesome answers, Blessings.

Hypatheticaly speaking though~~~

Just like the Woman Who had less then 3 months to live, because the Doctors told Her family that She had cancer of the Heart.

She to was talking to Herself and When She was Praying, She then felt something moving inside of Her! When they re~tested Her, She was found to have a heart of a teenanger, and she was 40 something~
It has been documented, and Doctors can't explain it???~~~

So keep talking to Yourselves.

Sincerely, Ant

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 105

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/29/2005 11:32:57 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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Right and that's why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Where's the logic?

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 106

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 5:16:37 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Yeah, this same-sex marriage discussion has gone the way of all other same-sex marriage discussions: to the world where a few religious types believe it's a sin and everyone else thinks it's fine.

Yup. I think I had this first debate 15 years ago and absolutely nothing has changed in the arguments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
That's why I'm confident that, in the end, gay marriage will be legalized throughout this union.

It was in Canada, and even though on the whole, we tend to lean a little more towards the left then USers, I think it's just a question of time. Though it did take you 35 years more then us to get rid of a lot of your hindering sex laws ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Right and that's why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Where's the logic?

There is no logic. It seems the more I make the logical point that this has nothing to do with religion, the more people want to quote to me from the Bible. The point is that you can quote the word of God to me until you are blue in the face. It does not apply to this situation.

I respect people's need to worship. Sincerely. It's not my bag but hey! If it works for them, good. Now people need to respect others choices too, even though it doesn't follow their ideology.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 107

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 5:19:06 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

So keep talking to Yourselves

I'm not sure what the point of your post was ant. However, if you are trying to convert me into a believer, I would suggest that your energies would be better spent doing something else.

I respect your right to practice a religion. Now respect my right to be an atheist.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 108

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 7:52:02 AM

knees2you

Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline

Would Not convert anyone~

But if we where all gay nobody would exist am I right??

Sincerely, Ant

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 109

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 9:35:12 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

Would Not convert anyone~

But if we where all gay nobody would exist am I right??

Sincerely, Ant

No, you're not.

If everyone was sexually attracted to the same sex, I am willing to bet everything I own that enough people would still want children to have heterosexual intercourse.

Homosexuality doesn't make you incapable of performing with the oposite sex. Fact is, I know several homosexual couples who have had their children in exactly this way--had sex with close friends, with their permision to attempt to create children. Or asked someone to have a child for them.

If everyone were heterosexual, we'd be overpopulated, wouldn't we?

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 110

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 1:27:43 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

Yeah, this same-sex marriage discussion has gone the way of all other same-sex marriage discussions: to the world where a few religious types believe it's a sin and everyone else thinks it's fine.

Hey Lam... please don't generalize moi like that!

I am religious.
I believe in the Ten Commandments. I believe in Jesus and I believe I am saved because of Him. I also know that He taught that the OT was important even to a Christian(Jew) saved by knowing Him.
I believe that marriage in church by church officals is a ridiculous thought and comparable to the 'Gift' ie sentimental.
How about - being married under the eyes of God? Does that mean church? Does that mean if there was some huge war and most everyone died that a couple without a priest, can't ever get married?

Church weddings are just that - church. Doesn't mean anything unless the you believe in God. Just means its a big fancy do where someone always ends up in an argument and the best man makes rude speaches. If a gay couple wish to marry - whats that got to do with anyone other than God if they want to commit under the eyes of God? If they want to marry and aren't religious - I don't see what people get on their high horses about. Thats the question I would like to hear and answer to. If they don't believe in marriage - then thats up to them also. Just as it is to a hetro couple.

Why do people want to tell others what to do?

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 111

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 1:50:39 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

I didn't say ALL religious types. I said A FEW religious types. I do not believe that most religious people object to gay marriage.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 112

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 2:01:43 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

I knowwwww...

I was just being silly ole me

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 113

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 3:25:57 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angelChurch weddings are just that - church. Doesn't mean anything unless the you believe in God. Just means its a big fancy do where someone always ends up in an argument and the best man makes rude speaches. If a gay couple wish to marry - whats that got to do with anyone other than God if they want to commit under the eyes of God? If they want to marry and aren't religious - I don't see what people get on their high horses about. Thats the question I would like to hear and answer to. If they don't believe in marriage - then thats up to them also. Just as it is to a hetro couple.

I think that is the whole point. A marriage is not a contract. It is not something that the State can mandate, control or otherwise. It is a covenant between the couple and God. No marriage license is required, technically. No church bells, no useless pieces of paper, no limousines, no drunken bashes. Since all Christians know for a fact that God hates the act of homosexuality to the point where it is specifically stated that God will not allow them to enter heaven, then W/we know for sure that God will not condone homosexual marriages. If He does not, then whether a homosexual wants to get married "under the eyes of God" or not is immaterial. God will obviously not honour the marriage, thus what W/we have is not a covenant at all. It was a big charade to justify one's lifestyle choices in the name of love.

The State really has nothing to do with marriage when you think about it. It should never have gotten involved to begin with, except that it found one more thing to regulate, one more way to make money. To them, marriage is a cash cow. So is divorce. They have polluted a pure concept to justify their own money-grubbing ends.

Thus, if the homosexual community wants to have a State-mandated union, that is fine, but it is not a true marriage. Homosexuals should not be allowed to twist the concept to conform to their mold any more than the State should be allowed to in order to suit their own ends.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 114

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 3:47:55 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

A marriage is not a contract.

In the eyes of the law, yes it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
It is not something that the State can mandate, control or otherwise.

You might not think so, but guess what, the State does control marriage. You can go and get married in a church but your official marriage certificate is given to you by the state.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
Thus, if the homosexual community wants to have a State-mandated union, that is fine, but it is not a true marriage.

Maybe not in your eyes, but in the eyes of the state, it will be a perfectly legal and legit marriage. And guess what, the state's opinion trumps yours. Thems the breaks!

You know, this would be a much more productive discussion if you would stop making stuff up to support your arguments.

As you can see, angel has faith but it doesn't blind her from seeing a bigger picture. And in the end, if the church does not want to recognise same-sex marriage, then they don't have to. But the state will and the marriage will be official.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/30/2005 3:54:32 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 115

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 3:57:16 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

A marriage is not a contract.

In the eyes of the law, yes it is.

No, I'm afraid it isn't. If you knew your Law you would not be making these assertions. A contract is a legal agreement between two people where only one of the people may break the contract at any time and walk away. A covenant is an agreement between two or more people where none of the parties may break the covenant of their own accord, but all must mutually agree. How do you ascertain whether God will agree to enter into the covenant or break the covenant? By applying Biblical standards, all there in black and white for you to read.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 116

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 4:29:35 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

Since all Christians know for a fact that God hates the act of homosexuality to the point where it is specifically stated that God will not allow them to enter heaven, then W/we know for sure that God will not condone homosexual marriages.

Ummmm..... where? Coz you keep mentioning it and I am damned(by your thoughts I guess) if I know where it mentions? Please help!
Now I know you can't mean the OLD TESTEMANT - because, as a Christian, the OT isn't anything you have to follow...
And it can't be the new, because Jesus doesn't mention homosexuality without mentioning the other stuff which you are already pardoned for.... because your exempt because of Christ...

quote:

The State really has nothing to do with marriage when you think about it.

Jesus and the bible quite heavily say that you should follow the laws, and that being said, in the eyes of the law, the law states it is, (as M'Lady A has already stated - thanks to You as always)

quote:

Homosexuals should not be allowed to twist the concept to conform to their mold any more than the State should be allowed to in order to suit their own ends.

Same could be said for Christians(or Jews...)

Peace and love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 117

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 4:34:56 PM

youngnwilling

Posts: 13
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

This is my first post, so pleasebe patient. I am glad that this can of worms was opened. I always like to see intelligent discussion on things that affect our lives. I do of course hope that it is always kept in a respectful forum where peoples thoughts and ideas are not walked on no matter what they are.

I think that when this legislation was in the media spotlight, it was blown way out of proportion. As previously stated in this subject, there is a difference between a civil union and marriage. I feel that any person can join in a civil union with any other person. All people should have the same rights as to who they live with and how, and have all of the other rights that are extended to married people or biological family. I do not believe in same sex marriage because to me, marriage is a religious sacrement between a man and a woman. While the institution marriage has been abused by our society with divorce and other shams, I do not believe that it should be further desecrated.

Politically speaking, I consider myself a moderate/conservative libertarian. I do not feel that it is the government's job to regulate what we do in our personal lives, especially when it comes to relationships. While I do like President Bush, I feel that regardless of his intentions, he was wrong to attempt to govern people's relationships. I can understand that he wants to protect the institution of "marriage", but to deny homosexuals the rights heterosexuals have is wrong.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 118

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 4:38:13 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Welcome to the boards ynw1

Brave first post - hope to see many more!

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to youngnwilling)

Post #: 119

RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/30/2005 4:41:16 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Since all Christians know for a fact that God hates the act of homosexuality to the point where it is specifically stated that God will not allow them to enter heaven, then W/we know for sure that God will not condone homosexual marriages.

quote:

Ummmm..... where? Coz you keep mentioning it and I am damned(by your thoughts I guess) if I know where it mentions? Please help!

Please see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 1 Timothy 1:9-11 where God uses Paul to convey His message re: unacceptable sins.

quote:

Jesus and the bible quite heavily say that you should follow the laws, and that being said, in the eyes of the law, the law states it is, (as M'Lady A has already stated - thanks to You as always)

quote:

Homosexuals should not be allowed to twist the concept to conform to their mold any more than the State should be allowed to in order to suit their own ends.

In the eyes of the Law, the State does NOT say that marriage is a contract. She is completely mistaken in her presentation. It is a shame that you would conform as opposed to researching the truth for yourself. It becomes increasingly evident that the State considers a marriage to be a covenant when you consider divorce Law, with which I am all too familiar with (My Law knowledge is specialized in Family Law).

As far as even allowing the State to dictate marriage, marriage is not mandated in 13 US States nor any of Canada. Thus, in those states and Canada the Bible does not require Y/you to obtain a certificate of any kind to enter into a contract with Y/your spouse (and the Law will protect Y/you provided Y/you operate within certain parameters). I have a completely different view of marriage, one that is not anti-Biblical and does not pander to the inane mandates of a corrupt State.

btw, fwiw, I hate centered posts SOOOOO much. Way too hard on the eyes when they are replete with formatting and everything else. Not to mention it is a pain in the rear end to remove all the formatting in order to formulate a reasonable reply. I think that is in BBS101.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 5/30/2005 4:47:25 PM >

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 120

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