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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 10:08:13 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Funny that you should use the phrase "4000 years." According to your precious Bible, that's about how old the world is. (Yeah, count the generations from Noah to Christ if you don't believe me.)

Oh, wait, the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally?

Then whose interpretation is your theocracy going to follow? Yours, right?

Anyway, why are we all arguing with this guy? It's not like we're going to convince him. As I said: the gay-marriage debate always comes down to a few religious extremists who insist that it's a sin, and everyone else who thinks there's nothing wrong with it.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

In what way has ignoring God proven a benefit to O/our respective countries, or any country in the last 4000 years for that matter?


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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 10:21:00 AM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Funny that you should use the phrase "4000 years." According to your precious Bible, that's about how old the world is. (Yeah, count the generations from Noah to Christ if you don't believe me.)


It is My firm belief that the Bible does not state ANYWHERE that the earth is 4000 years old. Nor does it state anywhere how old the earth really is. I am of the firm belief in the old-earth creation theory, something perhaps millions of years in the making, and far be it from any fundamentalist to prove Me wrong.

I do challenge you to show Me any different, however, if you so desire.


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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 10:23:57 AM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

Well people used to say that it was the christian gods mandate that blacks were meant to be slaves. I'm sure there are still people today who believe that god thinks that non-whites are inferior to whites. They use their bibles to justify it.

I think ignoring that particular set of beliefs was a good step.


That was, because there was no Biblical justification for that stance. In that regard I agree with you. It was a concept that was twisted and taken entirely out of context. However, in O/our example of homosexuality and how it relates to the concept of a covenant between the couple and God, it is impossible to take out of context, as Paul spoke directly to the people engaging in such a practice in explicit terms.

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 10:25:52 AM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Anyways, I do plenty wrong Myself. I am a sinner just like E/everyone else, and I know that God is going to have a lot to say to Me too when I stand before Him. W/we will all have O/our day.

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 10:26:48 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I already did. Go back to your Bible and count how many years elapsed between Noah and Christ. It will take some time, but there is a definite answer.

Sheesh, for a Bible-thumper you really don't know your Bible very well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do challenge you to show Me any different, however, if you so desire.


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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 10:30:59 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

That was, because there was no Biblical justification for that stance. In that regard I agree with you. It was a concept that was twisted and taken entirely out of context. However, in O/our example of homosexuality and how it relates to the concept of a covenant between the couple and God, it is impossible to take out of context, as Paul spoke directly to the people engaging in such a practice in explicit terms.


But you are sidestepping the point of that post- that ignoring any particular set of religious beliefs is a step FORWARD in mans humanity to man. You asked for an example, I gave you one.

You want to believe that your religious beliefs are right and appropriate, go for it. But I don't think your beliefs, or anyone's personal religious beliefs should have any bearing on what we decide as legal or beneficial to society as a whole.

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 11:13:19 AM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

That was, because there was no Biblical justification for that stance. In that regard I agree with you. It was a concept that was twisted and taken entirely out of context. However, in O/our example of homosexuality and how it relates to the concept of a covenant between the couple and God, it is impossible to take out of context, as Paul spoke directly to the people engaging in such a practice in explicit terms.


But you are sidestepping the point of that post- that ignoring any particular set of religious beliefs is a step FORWARD in mans humanity to man. You asked for an example, I gave you one.

You want to believe that your religious beliefs are right and appropriate, go for it. But I don't think your beliefs, or anyone's personal religious beliefs should have any bearing on what we decide as legal or beneficial to society as a whole.



Ok, point granted. However, I am not talking about a set of specific religious beliefs that are based on nothing but misconceptions and twisted interpretations. I am talking about properly interpreting the Bible and applying it to O/our lives. I believe there is a big difference.


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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 11:15:40 AM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I already did. Go back to your Bible and count how many years elapsed between Noah and Christ. It will take some time, but there is a definite answer.

Sheesh, for a Bible-thumper you really don't know your Bible very well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do challenge you to show Me any different, however, if you so desire.




Rather, for someone who professes the Bible, you do not know your Bible very well. Nor your world geography or geology. The flood was not a world-wide epidemic as some people profess it to be. In fact, it only encompassed the small "world" as they knew it. It was in fact very localized in nature and I have history and geological fact to back this up. There are plenty of geological surveys available at your finger tips if you desire to properly investigate what you are saying before you say it.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 5/31/2005 11:17:01 AM >

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 11:41:12 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Ok, point granted. However, I am not talking about a set of specific religious beliefs that are based on nothing but misconceptions and twisted interpretations. I am talking about properly interpreting the Bible and applying it to O/our lives. I believe there is a big difference.



LOL but Ken, that's EXACTLY what those people who believed that non-whites are inferior would say.

See the problem here? Why YOUR god? Why YOUR beliefs?

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 11:41:54 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin


Well, tough question really. I guess you would first have to decide which are false gods and which is the true God. That might not be such an easy task for some.



I haven't had much of a problem with it, myself, but I seem to see that a lot.

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 11:48:37 AM   
darkinshadows


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It isn't what you believe is sin, but God. And nowhere in the bible does it say that homosexuality is a sin, I have already shown that to you, but your pride and blindness are refusing to study what I showed you. Your taking one mistaken spelling and placing a thousand persumptions on it and coming up with one untruth.

I know that not everyone has the time nor the inclination to study the bibles original texts and thats why its helpful to gain knowledge and try and be open to it.

As to the concluesion, its the way you have taken Pauls teachings that leads to the concluesion that all kinky sex is a sin. Because even thinking about it in that context is sin(immoral thoughts) outside of marriage(sin) - thats your concluesion , no one elses, as you have interpreted the text on homosexuals. You can't condem homosexuality and ignore the entire rest of the text, if you interprete it in that way.

You can't have ya cake and eat it.

Peace and love

BTW - I am interested in why to you bisexual females are attractive. If you are willing to answer, I would be interested to hear your reasoning behind it, if you don't feel like avoiding my question and are ok responding to it.


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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 12:06:10 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		In Cosmo this month the "Ask a Guy" section had a great response- two females, no males! It means double the pleasure, and a guy can insert himself as he pleases in his fantasies.

Course that's why they are FANTASIES and don't really recognize the reality of the situation.

Though I admit a peeve of mine is when someone goes "oh she's REALLY bisexual" when they mean "She's REALLY willing to fuck any other chick"

Being bisexual doesn't make someone any more or less apt to be with other partners than anyone else.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 12:11:18 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

It isn't what you believe is sin, but God. And nowhere in the bible does it say that homosexuality is a sin, I have already shown that to you, but your pride and blindness are refusing to study what I showed you. Your taking one mistaken spelling and placing a thousand persumptions on it and coming up with one untruth.


No, you have shown Me nothing. I can provide to you the Strong's Concordance version of it, the definitive concordance for Greek Biblical translation in the world, along with Thayer's Lexicon supporting it. This coupled with half a dozen commentaries from world-reknowned and leading Biblical experts in the field. All you have given Me is a bunch of unsupported, meaningless hullaballoo.

quote:

As to the concluesion, its the way you have taken Pauls teachings that leads to the concluesion that all kinky sex is a sin. Because even thinking about it in that context is sin(immoral thoughts) outside of marriage(sin) - thats your concluesion , no one elses, as you have interpreted the text on homosexuals. You can't condem homosexuality and ignore the entire rest of the text, if you interprete it in that way.


Sex outside of marriage IS sin. That is true, but that is NOT My interpretation of 1 Cor or 1 Timothy. That is your own erroneous interpretation with absolutely no basis in fact. If need be I will provide links to these leading authorities to prove you wrong.

The question is, what constitutes a marriage? It is My belief that it is simply a man and a woman leaving their homes and becoming one through the act of intercourse, making a covenant between each other and God that they will stick it out through a lifetime. Perhaps they may want to include some friends as witnesses to their covenant. That is it. No more, no less.

quote:

BTW - I am interested in why to you bisexual females are attractive. If you are willing to answer, I would be interested to hear your reasoning behind it, if you don't feel like avoiding my question and are ok responding to it.


EDIT: Actually, I just noticed that you were not one of the ones that jumped to conclusion in a rather asinine fashion. I will send you a PM.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 5/31/2005 12:23:40 PM >

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 12:13:54 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		On second thought, I will post the link anyways as you will no doubt argue, even in the face of undeniable evidence.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr006.html

Edit: The L is for commentaries, the C is the concordance and Greek Lexicon. Read it carefully.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 5/31/2005 12:15:15 PM >

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 3:01:00 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Kenin, your response is not totally comprehensible, but look, if you take geology seriously, then you don't believe that human beings populated the earth five days after it was created.

That means you don't believe the account of the creation of the universe in Genesis 1 is literally true.

That means you don't think the Bible is literally true.

And THAT means--to get back to the question that started this, before you started to investigate where the Flood occurred--the Bible has to be interpreted. Whose interpretation are we going to use in your theocracy? Yours? It's an important question, you know, because if I'm going to live in a theocracy, I sure don't want SirKenin deciding my God for me. (I thought that's exactly why we got rid of the church and went back to the Bible in the first place.)

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Rather, for someone who professes the Bible, you do not know your Bible very well. Nor your world geography or geology. The flood was not a world-wide epidemic as some people profess it to be. In fact, it only encompassed the small "world" as they knew it. It was in fact very localized in nature and I have history and geological fact to back this up. There are plenty of geological surveys available at your finger tips if you desire to properly investigate what you are saying before you say it.


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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 3:15:53 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonAngel

I am not even going to to get into the bifemale debate because its probably something about the ability to make'em straight;)


Oh yes! As MrThorns would say, Captain Saveaho!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonAngel
Anyway, i am gonna take issue on the pot calling the kettle black.Ya can't say that God dislikes homosexual practices and then act like your saint.Thats total hypocrasy.>kinkysex at any time < alone by the definitions you have given(which is wrong by biblical standards, i would recommend a bit of study kenin)is a sin.so your a sinner, your audacity to deny your self pronounced sin wont save you even if you believe in Jesus and that he died for you, dont you see that?And thats using you analagy, not no one elses.So basically what i am saying is that as you see it,your sin isn't any less than that of a homosexual in the eyes of God.So get off your bandwagon and make good with your God before you condem others.


I agree DemonAngel. And here is the crux. The definition of sodomy is any form of oral sex (where a person’s mouth comes into contact with the genitals or anus of another person) and/or anal intercourse. Some define sodomy as any lewd or “unnatural” form of sexual intercourse.

So if our Kenin here has gotten head, he has performed sodomy. If he has sex for reasons other then procreation, he has committed a sin. What does the bible say about the one being without sin casting the first stone? I'm not a Christian and I've demonstrated that I understand this principle much better then Kenin has.

quote:

i am trying to focus on the original post by saying again that if a relationship is loving and that people want to marry then they should be allowed the same rights whether hetro,gay or lesbian.


I think most rational and tolerant human beings see it this way as well. I'm glad you and dark~angel are participating to this thread. Even though you both have faith and I'm an atheist, we both find common ground in wanting to see people treated equitably.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/31/2005 3:18:32 PM >

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 3:23:36 PM   
darkinshadows


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You just have to do a seach on words in any dictionary or on the web to find that the word has numerous descriptions - homosexuality isn't one of them.

I do know you have quoted from Strongs but that single description alone isn't enough to read the whole truth of what malakos(as you use) means. It has to be taken into context with the entire text which includes sodamite, arsenokoitai and pervert.

But if you want to take malakos by itself -

Sometime in the mid 19th century, the direct meaning for malakos(English translation) changed from its original translation of many things - to one. In fact the actualy meaning derives from the softness factor and leads on to explain that if a person(male/female) allows penetration by any device of their skin (including knives, pins, needles,etc or breaking the skin as in hurt feelings, allowing people to get under ones skin for example(which is where the term originates))

quote:

''Evidence from the ancient sources is abundant and easily accessible. malakos can refer to many things: the softness of expensive clothes, the richness and delicacy of gourmet food, the gentleness of light winds and breezes. When used as a term of moral condemnation, the word still refers to something perceived as "soft": laziness, degeneracy, decadence, lack of courage ''


In actual Greek history, even hetrosexual males could be called malakos - because the term was not associated with homosexuality but of those men who dressed finely, walked well, paraded etc. There are specific greek words that are homosexual, but these are not used at all.

The word malakos was used in Luke and in Matthew, both times describing people who dressed overtly in finery, so I am really sorry to have to disagree and say that it pretty much reads as though the people being 'condemed' are those who crave material possessions.

Peace and Love

edit*... i put men - lol - shows how easily things can be misinterpreted! It should read -
quote:

''the term was not associated with homosexuality but of those people who dressed finely, walked well, paraded etc. ''


< Message edited by dark~angel -- 5/31/2005 3:28:39 PM >

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 3:26:01 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

O/our Law does not trump God's Law. It never has, it never will. W/we like to THINK it does, and act as though it does, but W/we will see who has the last laugh.


Don't speak for me. I don't believe in your God and so therefore, the first laws that are of importance to me are my own. Then I check them against my state's laws and see if there are any contradictions. I deal with those on an individual basis.

You can go on and on about judgement day. I'm personally living my paradise on earth guilt free and when I breathe my last breath I will do it with a clear conscience that I didn't waste this one living with fear and guilt, only respect and tolerance for myself and others...

... oh yeah and lots of kinky, straight and gay sex.
quote:

I do not look at all kinky sex as being sin actually. How do you come to that conclusion? Homosexual sex maybe. Bi-sexual sex maybe. Kinky sex, no.

For the record, there is no such things as bisexual sex. There are bisexuals, but no bisexual sex. And all sex is deliciously sinful ;)

- LA

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RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 3:27:23 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
There is nothing to show. You jumped to conclusions before ascertaining the facts and made a fool out of Yourself. It would have been much easier for You to ask WHY it was that I was seeking a bi-sexual woman first, before You jumped to conclusions and stuck Your foot in your mouth.

Of course there is nothing to show Me, there is nothing left to say except OOOPS, and far be it from You to admit that You were mistaken. Pride will not let You do that.


Ok. I'll bite Kenin. Why do you want a bisexual woman?

- LA


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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Same-sex marriage - 5/31/2005 3:28:44 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonAngel

I am not even going to to get into the bifemale debate because its probably something about the ability to make'em straight;)


Oh yes! As MrThorns would say, Captain Saveaho!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonAngel
Anyway, i am gonna take issue on the pot calling the kettle black.Ya can't say that God dislikes homosexual practices and then act like your saint.Thats total hypocrasy.>kinkysex at any time < alone by the definitions you have given(which is wrong by biblical standards, i would recommend a bit of study kenin)is a sin.so your a sinner, your audacity to deny your self pronounced sin wont save you even if you believe in Jesus and that he died for you, dont you see that?And thats using you analagy, not no one elses.So basically what i am saying is that as you see it,your sin isn't any less than that of a homosexual in the eyes of God.So get off your bandwagon and make good with your God before you condem others.


I agree DemonAngel. And here is the crux. The definition of sodomy is any form of oral sex (where a person’s mouth comes into contact with the genitals or anus of another person) and/or anal intercourse. Some define sodomy as any lewd or “unnatural” form of sexual intercourse.

So if our Kenin here has gotten head, he has performed sodomy. If he has sex for reasons other then procreation, he has committed a sin. What does the bible say about the one being without sin casting the first stone? I'm not a Christian and I've demonstrated that I understand this principle much better then Kenin has.

quote:

i am trying to focus on the original post by saying again that if a relationship is loving and that people want to marry then they should be allowed the same rights whether hetro,gay or lesbian.


I think most rational and tolerant human beings see it this way as well. I'm glad you and dark~angel are participating to this thread. Even though you both have faith and I'm an atheist, we both find common ground in wanting to see people treated equitably.

- LA



Of course, SirKenin is a virgin saving himself for marriage.


Akasha

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