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So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 7:30:11 AM   
LightHeartedMaam


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Joined: 5/12/2007
Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070527/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_memorial_day

My heart goes out to all those who have lost loved ones this Memorial day.

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 7:45:23 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Mo condolences to anyone who has lost a loved one who has served his or her country. i  greatly admire their courage despite what i may personally feel about the war in general.

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 7:50:05 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		It's strange, to me, to consider the death rates.

How many die of drunk driving accidents and alcohol poisening?
How many die just from violent crimes?
How many of the poor are straving to death each day?

I won't claim to be so calleous as to scoff at nearly fourth deaths per day.  But, for less than four deaths per day in fighting for a noble cause to hold such notirity before the more numerous senseless deaths of the world?  It strikes me as odd and strange to consider.


Edit:  This isn't to say the dead in Iraq shouldn't be moarned- just.. why is it we moarn the few consented informed before the numerous innocent?

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 5/27/2007 7:57:42 AM >

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 7:59:03 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Edit:  This isn't to say the dead in Iraq shouldn't be moarned- just.. why is it we moarn the few consented informed before the numerous innocent?


What makes a better news story?  Which one makes it easier to bash the government?

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Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:00:26 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Every single death in Iraq TODAY is our fault, because we didn't bring them home YESTERDAY.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:03:14 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Edit:  This isn't to say the dead in Iraq shouldn't be moarned- just.. why is it we moarn the few consented informed before the numerous innocent?


What makes a better news story?  Which one makes it easier to bash the government?



What kind of simpleton bashes a government on such hypocritical charges?  Is a considerable portion of America really that bad?

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:06:32 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Every single death in Iraq TODAY is our fault, because we didn't bring them home YESTERDAY.


And of the Iraq innocent- trying to grow up, live their lives among a nation with a minority of violent terrorists, without the resources to defend themselves- what of the deaths you would inflict upon them in such a decision?

Is this stance to consider an American dead to be far and above that of an Iraqi dead?  American fighting men should not die when Iraqi school girls should?

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:06:35 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Every single death in Iraq TODAY is our fault, because we didn't bring them home YESTERDAY.


I blame the far left for these deaths. Al-qaeda in Iraq has learned that the far left in America and throughout the world uses these deaths to try to give Al-qaeda victory and America defeat, and so the two work hand-in-hand to kill American soldiers and use the deaths for their joint propaganda campaigns

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:12:54 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Every single death in Iraq TODAY is our fault, because we didn't bring them home YESTERDAY.


And of the Iraq innocent- trying to grow up, live their lives among a nation with a minority of violent terrorists, without the resources to defend themselves- what of the deaths you would inflict upon them in such a decision?


The HALF MILLION DEAD IRAQIS we're responsible for since the invasion in 2003? What about them?

quote:


Is this stance to consider an American dead to be far and above that of an Iraqi dead? American fighting men should not die when Iraqi school girls should?


Not really, but I think that muddies the point, when the OP was discussing American Deaths.

I agree, we should not forget the 500,000 dead WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Thank you for mentioning them.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:14:13 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Every single death in Iraq TODAY is our fault, because we didn't bring them home YESTERDAY.


I blame the far left for these deaths. Al-qaeda in Iraq has learned that the far left in America and throughout the world uses these deaths to try to give Al-qaeda victory and America defeat, and so the two work hand-in-hand to kill American soldiers and use the deaths for their joint propaganda campaigns


Try to absolve yourself of Moral Responsible in whatever ways it soothes your conscience.

You are still responsible, and St. Peter's going to be pissed if you don't have any answers for him about your culpability in sin.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:17:29 AM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Every single death in Iraq TODAY is our fault, because we didn't bring them home YESTERDAY.


And of the Iraq innocent- trying to grow up, live their lives among a nation with a minority of violent terrorists, without the resources to defend themselves- what of the deaths you would inflict upon them in such a decision?


The HALF MILLION DEAD IRAQIS we're responsible for since the invasion in 2003? What about them?


Strange, you still cited Americans without even noting these "HALF MILLION DEAD IRAQIS" previously.

What is your cite for this?  I must confess, one may consider such a number misattributed, at best.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:


Is this stance to consider an American dead to be far and above that of an Iraqi dead? American fighting men should not die when Iraqi school girls should?


Not really, but I think that muddies the point, when the OP was discussing American Deaths.

I agree, we should not forget the 500,000 dead WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Thank you for mentioning them.


Cite pending, of course.  Though doesn't any great atrocity belittle a lesser?

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:21:21 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Try to absolve yourself of Moral Responsible in whatever ways it soothes your conscience.

You are still responsible, and St. Peter's going to be pissed if you don't have any answers for him about your culpability in sin.


The only moral responsibility we need to worry about is the responsibility to hand down to our kids an Earth that's been scrubbed free of rabid Muslim fundamentalists who would want to behead them simply for not bowing down to Mecca three times per day.

And since you believe in fairy tales, why don't you go pray to the tooth fairy while adults worry about the worlds' problems.

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:27:00 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		farglebargle seems a bit confused. First he argues that we should concern ourselves with the welfare of American soldiers, and then he tries to claim that they're mass murderers...

He wants to have it both ways.

farglebargle just seems to say things that have an immediate emotional impact on him without really being able to follow through on his own faulty branches of reasoning.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/27/2007 8:28:31 AM >

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:32:56 AM   
selfbnd411


Posts: 598
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		I just read an article in the LA Times about how most soldiers don't think the war is winnable.  I feel sorry for the guys who joined up to fight the Taliban and ended up fighting in the Shiites/Sunni's civil-religious war.  They were betrayed.

John Kerry was right when he talked about how people join the military because they have no better options, though.  I asked my friend why he or his friends joined (US Navy) and he said the main reasons were:

1. Signup bonus/College $$/loan forgiveness
2. It's an easy job in the Navy, plus you get free housing/medical/food and no need to find a job
3. You get to see the world and play with guns

He laughs anytime he hears pundits talking about how people join for patriotism.  He said there are a few--usually West Point types--but most joined for the reasons outlined above.

Edit to add the info the article...Sorry for not putting the link up, but you have to sign in to the LA Times website:

In Baghdad, fighting their 'Alamo'
Los Angeles Times, CA - May 23, 2007
Soldiers here now openly declare pessimism for the mission's chances, unofficially referring to their splinter of heavily fortified land as "the Alamo."



< Message edited by selfbnd411 -- 5/27/2007 8:37:41 AM >

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:41:54 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Every single death in Iraq TODAY is our fault, because we didn't bring them home YESTERDAY.


And of the Iraq innocent- trying to grow up, live their lives among a nation with a minority of violent terrorists, without the resources to defend themselves- what of the deaths you would inflict upon them in such a decision?


The HALF MILLION DEAD IRAQIS we're responsible for since the invasion in 2003? What about them?


Strange, you still cited Americans without even noting these "HALF MILLION DEAD IRAQIS" previously.

What is your cite for this? I must confess, one may consider such a number misattributed, at best.



MIT/John Hopkins. It was in all the papers.

quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:


Is this stance to consider an American dead to be far and above that of an Iraqi dead? American fighting men should not die when Iraqi school girls should?


Not really, but I think that muddies the point, when the OP was discussing American Deaths.

I agree, we should not forget the 500,000 dead WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR.

Thank you for mentioning them.


Cite pending, of course. Though doesn't any great atrocity belittle a lesser?


MIT/John Hopkins. Their RANGE *WAS* ( Last Year ) 300,000 to 900,000 dead.

What number in that range do you think is closest to the actual?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:44:10 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

farglebargle seems a bit confused. First he argues that we should concern ourselves with the welfare of American soldiers, and then he tries to claim that they're mass murderers...

He wants to have it both ways.

farglebargle just seems to say things that have an immediate emotional impact on him without really being able to follow through on his own faulty branches of reasoning.


Yeah, because I guess you have no moral responsibility for those deaths?

Tell that shit to Jesus, and watch him bitch-slap you into Hell.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:45:45 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
The only moral responsibility we need to worry about is the responsibility to hand down to our kids an Earth that's been scrubbed free of rabid Muslim fundamentalists who would want to behead them simply for not bowing down to Mecca three times per day. 


But that isn't happening Sanity. Muslim fundamentalism is spreading, and spreading fast. Most dangerous of all, it is starting to become mainstream thinking.
 
I'm not going to dispute your opinion, like most here will. You are entitled to it ... and I will admit, that on some level, you are correct. It is clear that radical groups (from all religions and social interests) have little but ill intent on their minds. What I will dispute though, is that our current actions have any chance at a positive outcome.
 
At what point does this become the definition of insanity ... doing the same thing again and again, and expecting a different outcome?

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:46:56 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Try to absolve yourself of Moral Responsible in whatever ways it soothes your conscience.

You are still responsible, and St. Peter's going to be pissed if you don't have any answers for him about your culpability in sin.


The only moral responsibility we need to worry about is the responsibility to hand down to our kids an Earth that's been scrubbed free of rabid Muslim fundamentalists who would want to behead them simply for not bowing down to Mecca three times per day.



Ah, anyone wonder why I referred to Muslim as the New Jew? It's like 1935 all over again.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:47:11 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Actually the death toll amongst Iraqi's due to the invasion is roughly 650,000. That's based on a study published in the Lancet. I can't get the site to come up so I'll give you a news article on the study:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/

How was attacking an aggressively secular government that did not cooperate with muslim fundamentalist terrorists conducive to protecting Americans, past present or future, from said terrorists? Isn't it more likely to be true that the civil war will result in the further radicalization of both the sunni and shi'ite leadership? With worsening poverty and no opportunites is it more likely that the Iraqi youth will find muslim fundamentalist terror groups more appealing?

Did the diversion of our resources and attention from Afghanistan allow OBL to escape and the Taliban to reorganize? How was that conducive to wiping out all muslim fundamentalist terror groups?

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:50:21 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I think the WORST effect is when Bush gave into Bin Ladin's demands to withdraw from Saudi Arabia after he attacked on 9/11, Bush proved the US gives in to terrorist demands.

People say that we had to leave because the Saudi Government didn't want us there.

The IRAQI GOVERNMENT didn't want us in Iraq, did they?

Bush #41 may have been a Wussie, but he was, as far as I know better than both that fucking Nazi-Collaborator Grandpa-Prescott, and the Terrorist Appeaser #43.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/27/2007 8:51:10 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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