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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:51:17 AM   
selfbnd411


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did the diversion of our resources and attention from Afghanistan allow OBL to escape and the Taliban to reorganize? How was that conducive to wiping out all muslim fundamentalist terror groups?


Yep...If we had spent our precious blood and treasure expanding our intelligence and counterterrorism forces--FBI, CIA, Delta/Rangers/SEALs--instead of sending them into the meat grinder/black hole that is Iraq...

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:53:32 AM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Talk about being overdue for a backquote cut!

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

MIT/John Hopkins. Their RANGE *WAS* ( Last Year ) 300,000 to 900,000 dead.


Ah, I Google'd it.  Found: Study:  More Than 600,000 Dead in Iraq.  I'm glad to see this was a researched number.  However, as I feared, it is misattributed.

As Iraq was already suffering due to violence, the estimate of 0.6 million deaths due to it isn't shocking.  The article explifies this in:
quote:

ORGINIAL: [link=http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/42867/]

It is conceivable that the application of force by the U.S. military is making things worse.


This is to say, America isn't killing 0.6 million Iraqis, nor does this mean we are even not helping to curb this number.  Simply, one may argue that more have died in the upset.

I would like to note the difference between the carefully chosen word conceivable" and the actual possiblity of such a thing being true.  I would like to note the vast difference in conceivably attributing to an already-vast number of deaths and actually causing those deaths.


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

What number in that range do you think is closest to the actual?


If I had to estimate, I'd go with the mean of the range, as the study did, at 600,000.  Though that would only be for simplfied estimates- many of these things will never be known precisely and shouldn't be assumed as such.  A reasonable range with comment on probability distribution is the best one may hope for in often.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 8:54:47 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		I'm just wondering--how many of the people who posted to this thread supported the war four years ago?  I think the President's approval rating was in the high 80's at the time, and the percentage of adult Americans who supported the war was around 75.  Now his approval rating is around 30, and the percentage supporting the war is around 25.  So that means most of you must have changed your mind at some point.  Who's willing to admit it now?  And what happened to make you change your mind?

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:01:02 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Talk about being overdue for a backquote cut!

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

MIT/John Hopkins. Their RANGE *WAS* ( Last Year ) 300,000 to 900,000 dead.


Ah, I Google'd it. Found: Study: More Than 600,000 Dead in Iraq. I'm glad to see this was a researched number. However, as I feared, it is misattributed.

As Iraq was already suffering due to violence, the estimate of 0.6 million deaths due to it isn't shocking. The article explifies this in:
quote:

ORGINIAL: [link=http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/42867/]

It is conceivable that the application of force by the U.S. military is making things worse.


This is to say, America isn't killing 0.6 million Iraqis, nor does this mean we are even not helping to curb this number. Simply, one may argue that more have died in the upset.



The actual report:

http://web.mit.edu/cis/human-cost-war-101106.pdf

We broke it, we bought it.

It's funny. Hussein was a total animal, but he managed to keep the Shia, Sunni Civil war shut down.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/27/2007 9:02:11 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:01:40 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'm just wondering--how many of the people who posted to this thread supported the war four years ago?  I think the President's approval rating was in the high 80's at the time, and the percentage of adult Americans who supported the war was around 75.  Now his approval rating is around 30, and the percentage supporting the war is around 25.  So that means most of you must have changed your mind at some point.  Who's willing to admit it now?  And what happened to make you change your mind?


Gas prices and other annoyances attributed to him, for one.  Laws passed, perhaps, for another.

One such as myself may be said to have a vested interest in Bush's good performance.  Still, while I tend to agree with decisions, such as to go into Iraq, I have gained a distaste for the man on more at-home issues.

Nonetheless, I would not see him crucified under one a false charge for a seperate crime.  Nor am I certain that I would see one as liable for a mistake made in good faith in at-home issues while contending with greater issues both at home and internationally.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:04:47 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		For me it was over when they broke the law, namely 18 USC 371.

FELONS do not deserve the honor of serving this nation.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:07:52 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I initially supported the invasion.

I didn't belive GWB's bullshit though. Hussein was a vicious thug who had killed roughly 100,000 of his own people over the years and had shown no indication of changing or finding a way to improve the situation for his people. I, wrongfully, assumed that we would have a comprehensive plan to stabilize the country and rebuild their infrastructure.

Withing weeks of the invasion it was clear that absolutely no though had been given to post Hussein Iraq. I said then that the sunni and shi'ite would start settling scores and that would turn into civil war.

That's why I'm still so angry. The neocons who planned and pushed for this war hadn't even planned to protect the big museums in which housed many irreplaceable artifacts from the Tigris/Euphrates cultures. Apparently no plans were made for reestablishing Iraqi police and military forces. There wasn't even plans made for restoring electricity to the major urban centers.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:14:08 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlynAt what point does this become the definition of insanity ... doing the same thing again and again, and expecting a different outcome?


That would be, turning our backs to the problem, and pretend that it doesn't exist.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:14:11 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Who's willing to admit it now?  And what happened to make you change your mind?


I'm willing to admit it now.
 
I can't say that I really supported the war at it's conception ... I wasn't that active at the time, but will say that I feel that I probably would have.
 
I then went through the evolution of wanting to win, and feeling a responsibility for the mess we made ... a responsibility that I still have.
 
About four months ago, I started wondering if the goal as stated, has already been accomplished, and it's time to just leave. Friends I have on the right, talk about our freedom, and that we must fight for it ... "Freedom is never free" ... but these same friends on the right want to give that freedom to the Iraqi's, without the requirement that they fight for it. I can't understand that position at all ... something we give them, will be of no value to them ... obviously.
 
Today ... I'm just done with the whole mess. The service man I know is very guarded with his words, but you can read between the lines. We aren't going to win, given that we are not fighting to win. Those in the right, blame the whole mess on the left, because they feel the terrorists know their target in the weakness of the left. Probably some truth there, and some complete bullshit. Those on the left, blame the right, because they have quandered resources on Iraq instead of using them to fighting terror all over the globe. Probably some truth there, and some complete bullshit.
 
My mind was changed, because I have come to the realization that we cannot win in Iraq, because we cannot win at home. If we could win at home, the war would be over in a month. We have the military might.
 
But, we will never win at home ... because both sides are now using this as a political football. Time to bring our men home.

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:28:07 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlynAt what point does this become the definition of insanity ... doing the same thing again and again, and expecting a different outcome?


That would be, turning our backs to the problem, and pretend that it doesn't exist.



"There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq," Petraeus told a news conference, adding that political negotiations were crucial to forging any lasting peace.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:29:47 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The actual report:

http://web.mit.edu/cis/human-cost-war-101106.pdf

We broke it, we bought it.


Ah, good.  Wish you saved me the Google trip. :P

However:  "We broke it, we bought it"?  Were you not the one contending that we should back out of Iraq in the opening page of this thread?

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's funny. Hussein was a total animal, but he managed to keep the Shia, Sunni Civil war shut down.


Meh, kind of.

Consider a violent parent who is not opposed to beating their children in annoyance, though isn't quite to the point of random beatings.  Such children may be relatively well-behaved while at home.  Still, does this make the violent parent a good one?  It did stop the kids from egging the neighbor's house, after all.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:33:20 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
"There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq," Petraeus told a news conference, adding that political negotiations were crucial to forging any lasting peace.


"If we don't win in Iraq, it will signal the beginning of the end for life as we know it. We'll all be either dead, or bowing down to Mecca within 25 years."

Statement issued at a joint press conference signed by Al Gore, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/27/2007 9:34:13 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:35:42 AM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlynAt what point does this become the definition of insanity ... doing the same thing again and again, and expecting a different outcome?


That would be, turning our backs to the problem, and pretend that it doesn't exist.


I would caution against misinterpreting Einstein, caitlyn.  In Einstein's "definition" of "insanity", he was supporting Science- this is to say, similar actions lead to similar results.  However, "similar", context, is similar, scientific, not similar, sociologic.  This is to say- Einstein is saying if two systems are alike to the point that their physics are similar, then their physical reactions are likely similar, and expecting something different would be silly.

This may be an argument against quantum mechanics, with regards to probability physics, though not against using similar methods in different cases on a social scale.

Edit:  Just to note, this isn't the actual definition of insanity, Einstein*.  He was simply using it to empathise the silliness of doing such a thing, not trying to make it a general definition.

*Not calling you Einstein satirically, but I mean "insanity, Einstein" as "insanity, according to Einstein".

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 5/27/2007 9:39:27 AM >

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:37:49 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

However: "We broke it, we bought it"? Were you not the one contending that we should back out of Iraq in the opening page of this thread?



Yes. Here's the thing. Way *I* see it the ONLY WAY OUT with honor and integrity is this simple plan:

1) Give *EVERY* Iraqi who can hold one, an assault rifle and crate of ammunition. ( Thousand dollars each )

2) Tell *EVERY* Iraqi: "Get together with your neighbors and Organize into a Militia to defend your neighborhood, village, city.

3) Good Luck, May Allah Be Merciful and GOOD BYE.

No-one can secure The Iraqi People BUT The Iraqi People.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's funny. Hussein was a total animal, but he managed to keep the Shia, Sunni Civil war shut down.


Meh, kind of.

Consider a violent parent who is not opposed to beating their children in annoyance, though isn't quite to the point of random beatings. Such children may be relatively well-behaved while at home. Still, does this make the violent parent a good one? It did stop the kids from egging the neighbor's house, after all.


Hey, perhaps that's what the Cultural Expectations are? Does George Bush have the required balls to do what's needed to surpress the violence? No. In fact NO Constitutional Republic could *ever* be successful in that.

Pournelle suggested that after 9/11, the Marines march from one end of Afghanistan to the other, removing the existing Taliban government, and anyone too dumb to get out of their way, or stupid enough to take a shot at them.

THEN WE COME HOME. Secure in the knowledge that IF a government takes hold which is a similar threat, The Marines could simple GO BACK.

This solves the VERY REAL PROBLEM of using Elite Combat Troops as Military Occupation Police.

And we see exactly how effective THAT strategy is in Iraq, don't we.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/27/2007 9:38:16 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:38:54 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Try to absolve yourself of Moral Responsible in whatever ways it soothes your conscience.

You are still responsible, and St. Peter's going to be pissed if you don't have any answers for him about your culpability in sin.


The only moral responsibility we need to worry about is the responsibility to hand down to our kids an Earth that's been scrubbed free of rabid Muslim fundamentalists who would want to behead them simply for not bowing down to Mecca three times per day.

And since you believe in fairy tales, why don't you go pray to the tooth fairy while adults worry about the worlds' problems.


Then its fair to include all the supporters of a tyrannical imperialist government in that as well.  terrorists by any other name. 


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:43:05 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
"If we don't win in Iraq, it will signal the beginning of the end for life as we know it. We'll all be either dead, or bowing down to Mecca within 25 years."

Statement issued at a joint press conference signed by Al Gore, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter.


I have read similar statement made during the Vietnam war, a war that lasted much longer, had considerably more deaths, and much higher stakes.
 
To me, this is just alarmist. Unless these men have a crystal ball, they do not know what the future will bring. 

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:44:26 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
At what point does this become the definition of insanity ... doing the same thing again and again, and expecting a different outcome?


the day the war mongers wrote the letter bill clintom waaaaaaay back in 1997 to take over iraq


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:45:12 AM   
SirDominic


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Status: offline 		Hussein was a vicious thug who had killed roughly 100,000 of his own people over the years and had shown no indication of changing or finding a way to improve the situation for his people.

I have never understood someone who states this. There are murderous thugs running countrys all over the planet. Why pick Hussein over all the others? As evil and brutal a tyrant as he was, he was one of the few in the Middle East who had a secular government instead of one controlled by religious factions. Not to mention he was our ally when he was at war with Iran. He was still the same brutal maniac then. So what changed?????

CuriousLord said "But, for less than four deaths per day in fighting for a noble cause to hold such notirity before the more numerous senseless deaths of the world?"

Noble cause? Surely you jest. We invaded a country on false pretense (the infamous weapons of mass destruction), totally destabilized that country, killed, or allowed to be killed way more innocent Iraqies than Hussein ever did, and pissed off the entire Middle East with the result that there are more willing to be terrorists than ever before.

Who paid the price for W's arrogance? The thousands of soldiers who have been killed and the tens of thousands who have been maimed. On this Memorial Day weekend, my heart goes out to our military personnel who went and did their jobs. How shameful that they were sent there for no reason at all. W should not only be impeached, he should be hauled before the World Court for crimes against humanity.



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You teach best what you have lived.

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RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:45:33 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		That was tongue-n-cheek, caitlyn - in response to farglebargle posting imaginary quotes... read it again, and you'll get the joke.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: So THIS is progress - 5/27/2007 9:45:50 AM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
"There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq," Petraeus told a news conference, adding that political negotiations were crucial to forging any lasting peace.


"If we don't win in Iraq, it will signal the beginning of the end for life as we know it. We'll all be either dead, or bowing down to Mecca within 25 years."

Statement issued at a joint press conference signed by Al Gore, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter.


CITATION, PLEASE!

Your search - "If we don't win in Iraq, it will signal the beginning of the end" - did not match any documents.

What "Imaginary Quotes"?

Did I fail to properly cite a source?

Oh, yeah...

http://www.google.com/search?q=There+is+no+military+solution+to+a+problem+like+that+in+Iraq%2C+to+the+insurgency+of+Iraq%2C&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Is the BBC, CNN, and Reuters enough?

Why are you making up lies about me? Personal attacks signify the real lack of any other position.





< Message edited by farglebargle -- 5/27/2007 9:51:59 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 40
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