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RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 4:46:38 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Wonderful first post homme!
You have popped your CM posting cherry.
LOL

politesub? you are so welcome

< Message edited by MzMia -- 5/28/2007 4:47:10 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 6:16:05 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the great responses! Every now and again i need a kick in the pants to realize how easy misunderstandings can occur on here without it being the fault of any one person.

I think for me the lies of omission are the ones i use the most and have the most problem with. For me i omit things that are not intrinsic to getting to know me. The deeper things that someone will learn over time whether i tell them or not. I have problems with other people omitting simple details, like marriage, kids, severely in debt and looking for someone to rescue them, etc... Flat out lies (age etc) are just plain stupid if you have any plan of ever really knowing someone. All relationships are based on trust, how can you ever trust someone who starts a relationship with a lie???

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 6:39:40 PM   
Teachme59


Posts: 47
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline 		My what a revelation… heaven must be a pretty kinky place… if no one in this lifestyle ever tells a lie…even a little one … then ropes and collars must be issued at the Pearly Gates…lol.. if you could see my body language you would know I am kidding.
I lie on occasion….but not to hurt or particularly deceive. More to keep from unnecessarily hurting someone’s feelings. Oh what a beautiful baby you have… or…No that dress does not make you look fat. That looks great hun. You worked all evening to make this wonderful meatloaf… thank you dear it’s great.
I sometimes do the same online… harmless but still a lie… I don’t believe that you must always tell the truth even if it hurts someone. But like most above I think of myself as basically truthful and am no more likely to lie online then in person.
Butch

(in reply to hereyesruponyou)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 8:40:17 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		OOoo.  lies.

of course its easier to lie online.  no one can see you crossing your fingers, you know?  i try my best not to lie, but that's difficult when Aunt Alice asks me "does this make my butt look big?" and i think "no, the 4 eclairs contributed to that.  your BUTT makes your butt look big!" but i calmly reply "well...i think that's really less than flattering to you from this angle" and go on.

i have one thing that i will consistantly, absolutely lie about unless asked a direct question in the right manner.  and Sir knows this, and lets me play that game and deny him an answer until HE is ready.  i am then allowed to grouse, but will answer honestly.

but to someone i dont know well?  i'll gladly smile and say that i'll answer sometime in the future but not at the moment, thank you.

kitten, who knows she can be wiggly at times. 

(in reply to Teachme59)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 8:56:40 PM   
PsyVamp


Posts: 1026
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Many lie by "omission", especially in the beginning.
Do we owe it to total strangers to immediately tell everything about ourselves, on demand?
I think not.
It really does take a lot of communication, time and effort to really know anyone "well".
I don't see any shortcuts here.
I have had many "submissives" get mad at me because I don't tell them "all about me" immediately and
on demand.
Why should I?
I am the type I rather hold back a lot of information about myself, then lie.
I will open up and tell you, when and IF I care to open up and tell you things.
By the way---->I fucking love the internet.
You can have a lot of fun here.


Hey MzMia!  Long time no post (for me) but this really caught my eye. 
I have unmentionables at home and I definately DO NOT talk about them to every sub that writes me.
In fact, I won't talk about them at all unless it is relevant - why bother?  Its none of their business unless they are going to be part of my life.
If they are only part of my play, and I play with them away from my real life, then they may never know.
Oh, and I fucking love the internet too... I have made more good friends(r/t) from this site in the past few months than just about anywhere else.

To the OP, if not telling something means that I am lying then so be it. 
I will tell you that I am quite honest about my likes and dislikes in my emails.  I will not tell someone I want a toilet slave because I have absolutely NO desire to have one, doesn't matter if they are the living incarnate of Adonis...still don't want one and I will say so.
I agree though, that it is very difficult without tone, inflection or non verbal signals (as can be had in a r/t conversation) but I usually ask the person if I am interpreting their statements correctly.  If I think I'm answering something without explaining it well, I'll also put in a "disclaimer" to that effect.
Hope I made sense, it is late for me and work comes early!

Enjoy your day all!

Psy
(who saw Pirates yesterday and really needs to bite someone..heh)


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Could a blue screen of death constitute being defenestrated?
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(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 9:04:54 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

"While damamge to the right temporal neocortex is fairly rare, millions of people experience daily aprosodia in their email. At night all cats are gray, and in e-mail everyone is aprosodic, because the medium consists of curt sentences lacking emotional inflections. This is why people misunderstand one another so readily by e-mail, and why it is so much easier to lie on the Internet than in other social interactions. minus the perceptible cues of voice tone, eye contact, and expression, email so lends itself to emotional deception that people assume outrageously fabricated identities, simply because they can."


"... the medium consists of curt sentences ..."?

What kind of fucking nincompoop publishes an assertion like that? The messages carried by the medium may or may not consist of curt sentences. Claiming that the medium of e-mail itself "consists of" sentences betrays--at best--the sort of exremely limited writing ability that might lead to e-mails comprised of nothing but curtly misleading sentences.

At worst it may indicate that we have here a person doing research in interpersonal communication without understanding the meaning of the word medium.

For fuck's sake.

This researcher obviously hasn't read my e-mails, by the way, which--far from curt sentences, are fucking poetry start to finish. Then again I don't get the impression that this researcher would understand poetry any better than curt sentences.

Can the OP explain in what crucial way web postings differ from e-mails? I mean they seem similarly devoid of body english and pheremone transmittal. If your researcher finds words on a screen untrustworthy, isn't he or she casting his or her findings in grave doubt by allowing them to appear on my PC screen in just the way that e-mail messages do?

In fact, shouldn't we toss all the scientific journals out of the libraries since their content consists of primarily of: "sentences lacking emotional inflections"?

Or does the jinx go away when you throw in grad-school-only words like "aprosodic".

In my experience, liars lie, in any medium. Furthermore, liars tend to be more likely than usual to presume others lie (in any medium) as well.

I call nincompooposodic on your researcher, dear.




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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 9:11:13 PM   
Wildnfreehrt2004


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrWrite

i find that sometimes the opposite is true. it's easier to be honest online than off. if you're so inclined, it's much easier to open up to someone you do not know and will not meet face to face. if by chance you should one day meet face to face, they know the best and worst of you already. i imagine many of your families and best friends don't know of your bdsm interests, but you feel free to open up to strangers online about it. does that mean that computers make us more likely to tell the truth? i don't think so. i guess i agree with the statement above that people who lie will lie online. honest people won't. and the medium has little to do with it.


There are fewer filters when communicating online than in person, so you can express thougths you never/rarely would in person - you can also express more untruths. No one can see you, no one can identify you, and the thoughts flow from your brain to your fingers without a worry of whether it sounds absolutely stupid or embarrassing as you would filter in person.  Some people do pour out intimate thoughts and details (romantic as well as sexual) online with the absence of filters and visual cues of how the other person is receiving this information. We also have a tendency to 'fill in the blanks' of what someone is telling us based on our experiences, desires and thoughts - so miscommunication is nearly inevitable.
Wildy

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 9:23:45 PM   
Teachme59


Posts: 47
Joined: 5/10/2006
Status: offline 		Good post Wildnfreehrt2004

On more than one occasion I thought the person I was talking with had a common interest in what I was talking about… I babbled on not seeing their reaction to my words only to find I had stepped over the line somewhere and either offended them or turned them off. Face to face I would not have had the courage to say those things anyway but if I had ,I think I would have picked up on the discomfort.
Butch

(in reply to Wildnfreehrt2004)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/28/2007 9:25:33 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		I think it's easier to be both more honest and lie online.  In either case you don't always get the same off line as you do online at times.  Some people might not be so forward with honesty in person, and some people just plain lied their asses off online as well.  It also easier to create your own mental image of somebody as well.  The ideas and mental images you shove in your head about somebody are not how they really may be.   Cause this a false perception based on no fault of the person you are talking with.  It's just a natural brain fuckion to do this, so when you met in person it might shatter your image of them.  Blah Blah Blah... there will always be game players online/offline.. it's a bit easier for people to do it online.  It's also easier for people to be more honest as well.   

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/29/2007 1:17:26 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Teachme59

I lie on occasion….but not to hurt or particularly deceive. More to keep from unnecessarily hurting someone’s feelings.


This is interesting as i did it just a few months ago. A situation was hurting me and i didnt want to say anything. I knew the She wasnt meaning to hurt me so i kept quiet.

Eventually it all came out and ww3 started, i was told in no uncertain terms that an omission is firstly a lie and secondly i had no right to decide what She could or couldnt handle.

I can see the thing about little white lies like "nice dress" or something though.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/29/2007 1:28:20 AM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Noah:  "... the medium consists of curt sentences ..."?

What kind of fucking nincompoop publishes an assertion like that? The messages carried by the medium may or may not consist of curt sentences. Claiming that the medium of e-mail itself "consists of" sentences betrays--at best--the sort of exremely limited writing ability that might lead to e-mails comprised of nothing but curtly misleading sentences.

At worst it may indicate that we have here a person doing research in interpersonal communication without understanding the meaning of the word medium.

[snipped to avoid yadda yadda yadda]


How true.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/29/2007 2:56:50 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		The relaxed anonymity of online conversation leads to intimacy on a deep level even if you never meet the other person. The points about written words not being able to convey accurately the right meaning is nothing new. It depends on those involved. Many write and understand better than others and are more likely to do better in a medium that uses the written word. As far as lying, it is no different than lying…say on the phone. Don’t chase a lie because it will tend to divulge itself with time. Focus on character and patterns of behavior.

Edited to add:
I saw Noah’s post after I posted and, as usual, he says it better than I could. What I will add is it is wise to understand the internet, in particular instant messages or rapid emailing, as not being the same as ordinary letter writing. Other factors come into play such as timing, humor, considering who you are communicating with and acknowledging the points of the other, like a good “listener” does. The key is for the other person to feel relaxed on the psychiatrist’s couch and not overwhelmed in any way.


< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 5/29/2007 3:24:26 AM >

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RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/29/2007 3:57:04 AM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

"... the medium consists of curt sentences ..."?

What kind of fucking nincompoop publishes an assertion like that? The messages carried by the medium may or may not consist of curt sentences. Claiming that the medium of e-mail itself "consists of" sentences betrays--at best--the sort of exremely limited writing ability that might lead to e-mails comprised of nothing but curtly misleading sentences.

At worst it may indicate that we have here a person doing research in interpersonal communication without understanding the meaning of the word medium.

For fuck's sake.



I admit that sentence rankled my own fur a little, but i thought it best to quote exactly then give my interpretation rather than give others a less than complete picture of what was being said. I have a feeling that is meant more for the typical brief mailings that often do take place on the net. Just because you are a letter writer does not mean everyone is. I would say the majority of mail i get outside of this site is generally quick and to the point unless it is a friend catching up or something. I also happen to be one of those persons who shows everything on her face, so lying in person is very difficult for me to do syccessfully whereas lying online would be much easier, i just find it mostly pointless for my purposes.

The point of the OP was much more about how easily misunderstadnings occur online without the personal interface that normal face to face communication provides. And yes somecan lie on the phone, so I don't take what i hear from people who make it that far as totally genuine either until they prove themselves. However you still have more cues of their demeanor and intent on the phone as you listen to the inflections in the their voice.

(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/29/2007 4:05:27 AM   
LadyDominaX


Posts: 173
Joined: 5/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

Reading a book about the structure of the brain and how it related to emotion etc... I found a very interesting paragraph i wanted to share with you all. We've all supposed that people lie online because they can, but this shows online communication actually leads our brains to desire to lie. First a definition:

aprosodia (damage to right-hemisphere of brain and inability to comprehend emotional aspects of speech) ie. not being able to understand inflection in the voices of others.

"While damamge to the right temporal neocortex is fairly rare, millions of people experience daily aprosodia in their email. At night all cats are gray, and in e-mail everyone is aprosodic, because the medium consists of curt sentences lacking emotional inflections. This is why people misunderstand one another so readily by e-mail, and why it is so much easier to lie on the Internet than in other social interactions. minus the perceptible cues of voice tone, eye contact, and expression, email so lends itself to emotional deception that people assume outrageously fabricated identities, simply because they can."

Might also explain why there is so much misunderstanding on these boards.....




This is precisely why I am such a stickler about the proper use of grammar and punctuation.  The written English language was designed for maximum efficiency; that is why we have all these lovely punctuation marks to use -- and not just as emoticons.  We have a language that has been adjusted to convey thoughts clearly in writing, and what do we do when given the best medium ever invented in which to use it?
We create "txt spk."
People wonder why I find the internet so frustrating. I wonder if they've seen it.

(in reply to hereyesruponyou)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/29/2007 4:06:50 AM   
Valyraen


Posts: 746
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Just a general reply/relation of some of my online experience, not particularly directed at anyone.

I'm 22, pretty close to 23, and I've been online since I was 13. I've been an internet roleplayer - in the table-top D&D sense, just so that we're clear - for the whole of those ten years, and I've talked to hundreds of people. I've gotten the good and the bad, made some friends that helped me through really tough times (whose faces I've never seen and probably never will see), and been jerked around.

Communicating with other people online is just like communicating with other people in person - if you're good enough at it, you can come off as just about anything you want to be. From personal experience, it's easier to open up to someone if you know that you're probably never going to meet them in person - I've had heart-to-heart talks via Instant Messaging and confessed some of my deepest, darkest fears - and it's easier to put on a role, as well. The person that I am online is a bit different from the person that I am face-to-face, not because I'm lying about myself, but because the medium of communication removes some of the aspects of my face-to-face interactions (such as the world around me) and puts me squarely in the realm of the conversation as it's happening.

I'll probably add more to this later, when I'm not prepping for work.

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RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/30/2007 9:45:46 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDominaX
This is precisely why I am such a stickler about the proper use of grammar and punctuation.  The written English language was designed for maximum efficiency; that is why we have all these lovely punctuation marks to use -- and not just as emoticons.  We have a language that has been adjusted to convey thoughts clearly in writing, and what do we do when given the best medium ever invented in which to use it?
We create "txt spk."
People wonder why I find the internet so frustrating. I wonder if they've seen it.



The written English language was "designed"?

By whom, for God's sake?

And whomever it was designed it for maximum efficiency? The written English language seems to me just as well suited to inefficiency as efficiency. Much more to the point I see the language as tremendously powerful in terms of all sorts of expression in which efficiency is nowhere near the top of any list of concerns.

As for your lovely punctuation marks, there are impenetrable texts overburdened with punctuation marks which break no rule, just as there are searingly lucid texts which employ no punctuation.




But much more important: who are these people who wonder why you find the internet so frustrating?

(in reply to LadyDominaX)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 5/31/2007 3:45:24 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		One might wonder if the internet was so terribly frustrating, why someone would be using it unnecessarily.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 6/1/2007 6:35:29 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
Wonderful thread!
 
Of course it is easier to lie on line.  Not only is there a lack of many things that relate to communication other than the spoken word (body language, tone, etc.) there is also the fact that the person who is lying knows there is less chance of getting caught.  Taking away certain forms of accountability relieves much of the incentive to tell the truth.  The married man can easily say on line he is single.  You can't see him typing while he is wearing his wedding band!  If for some reason he slips up and the truth comes out, it matters very little.  He just moves to the next contact.  Nothing lost.  There are millions of others and he just starts over with the same routine.
 
The very same can be said of telling the truth.  Certain pressures are relieved when having a discussion that isn't held face to face.  For example, there may be discomfort in relating a particular event, but without having to be concerned about composure, the truth can be relayed without barriers.  It goes back to the same thing.  The person it was discussed with might never be met face to face, so there's no need for embarrassment or guilt about the discussion.
 
As to what consists of lying, especially on line, it's not as easy to define.  MzMia did bring an excellent point of that little technicality of the difference between a lie and an omission of the truth.  Say a person puts on their profile that they are 25, but at the time they created the profile, that person was 18.  By the course of events that conversations are struck up/emails sent you get to know this person a bit electronically.  They lied about their age when they created the profile, but unless directly asked how old they are, they may not feel they are lying to you.  Rather, it is an omission of the truth because they are just allowing you to believe a number they put up when creating their on line personna.  At the same time, MzMia is correct again by saying that it is foolish to make your life an open book on the net.  Many of us list the city/state we live in, but how many of us are dumb enough to post our street address?  That's also an example of an omission of the truth, but we do it for our own safety.
 
In a forum such as this one, where the words fake and game player are used on a constant basis, and the word "true" has almost a negative connotation in certain contexts, how does one differentiate honest people from dishonest ones?  Unless planning to meet them in the real world at some time, it might not be possible.  It's a coin toss.
 
Anybody got a quarter?
 
 

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 6/1/2007 8:18:47 AM   
ObedientYYC


Posts: 80
Joined: 8/25/2006
Status: offline 		My experience is that no matter how many emails, photos, and phone calls you share with someone, you really don't know who they are until you meet them in person. 

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: it IS easier to lie online - 6/1/2007 8:46:29 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I think I said that, dear, but Mine was the long winded version.  <Laughs>

(in reply to ObedientYYC)
Profile   Post #: 40
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