RE: Third speak... (Full Version)

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sabba -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 12:42:47 PM)

greetings zindyslave;

As one of "those from the other side" who consistently speaks in third, she does it, simply because Master requires it. It's simple really, He makes the rules not sabba. she can theorize all she wants as to the why's, but Him requiring it makes it so. Interestingly enough, when sabba speaks to others in person or on the phone, He does not require it. sabba has only been required to "speak" in third once...when she was so upset that she was talking a mile a minute, probably not making sense and in tears and couldn't even catch her breath. In that moment, she had to slow down dramatically, regain her focus and really think about what she was saying, and it if was worth the effort to try and say it correctly. It certainly had a purpose then, as it does for others now.

Maybe He requires sabba to use it when writing, because it's easier to forget one's manners and politeness when typing instead of having to look at the person while they are speaking. There are some things written in the forums that sabba would never speak to anyone, angry or not. she imagines that taking the time to write in third just might cause the girl to have to think a bit harder about what she is saying, slow down and choose her words carefully. Maybe He has a different reason, maybe He just likes the control. All valid reasons, simply because they are His reasons, and it really isn't for sabba to question.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}




NControlofU -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 12:46:37 PM)

joy is a contradiction.  She loves to break the rules so much because she loves to be punished.  And, I'm more than happy to give her what she loves. 



zindyslave -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 3:08:44 PM)

All, I was ever asking was why it was done, I didn't see the reasons for it, that is all I wanted to know. If it offended someone then I am sorry. Thank you sabba for your detailed explaination that was pretty much what i was looking for, just wanting to see others views on it.



cjenny -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 3:39:48 PM)

I erred in my response. I went with how I felt about it rather than the reason behind its usage.
Sorry.



Wildfleurs -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 4:11:35 PM)

Fast Reply...

I'm not really sure I understand the "can we get along posts."  There are topics that people always disagree on, and afterall this isn't the letsallholdhandsandvalidateeveryoneschoices board, its a discussion board so there will be disagreement, some very harsh disagreement.  But what I don't quite get are the people taking it personally. 

As I mentioned in an earlier post, a dominant I was dating/involved with had severe speech restrictions in place with me, including speaking in third person and it was something I enjoyed.  But just because someone else finds it silly or stupid doesn't mean I take it personally remotely. 

It, like all opinions reflects on them, not on me.

C~



fairerthanshe -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 5:49:16 PM)

Greetings wild,

Point taken.  This is indeed a discussion board. While there are many points of contention within the majority of threads, it seems rather harsh to add personal insults to the posts.  That was the point of the last portion of  fairer's original message.  

Truly, there is no reason to get along with anyone here.  Those she has the pleasure to know in person she will retain if she leaves CM, and the rest are welcome to clap when she does.  However, fairer chooses to post in a manner that is civil and open minded.  When there are topics being discussed that she would put high on her squick list, she simply does not respond.  Do you really give a damn what fairer thinks of breath play? Probably not! So then, if fairer does not have a contribution to make that can possibly be of use to someone, rather than post soley with the goal of detriment, she will not post. 

This tac is not for everyone.  There are those whose sole function on CM is to play the role of contentious poster - some to the right and some to the left and some who are not your average mother....- it is their right to do so.  From these people can be gained great insight and wisdom or just wicked things to say to people that completely go over their heads and one realizes the extent of this insipid wasteland.  Does fairer read the posts written by these types?  Oh my goodness, YES!  That's the best part - getting to read all the nasty little outbursts and jabs, until one appears who stops all the falderal. Then the boys and girls find someone else upon which to use their venom and all is well.

Since you don't take any thing personally, it is certain that in no way would you ever construe that any of the adjectives used in this post were directed towards you.

well wishes,

fairer than she



bbmwst -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 5:56:17 PM)

I was initially taught that way. It didn't work out to well though.  I find it to be annoying and bad english for that matter.



zindyslave -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 6:46:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

I erred in my response. I went with how I felt about it rather than the reason behind its usage.
Sorry.


I don't mind people sharing their opinions on how they feel about it. What I was saying was that some people are upset about all the 'why' questions. I was apologizing if I offended anyone by asking why.



slavegirljoy -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 7:24:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zindyslave
I don't mind people sharing their opinions on how they feel about it. What I was saying was that some people are upset about all the 'why' questions. I was apologizing if I offended anyone by asking why.


Dear zindyslave,
 
Please don't feel bad about asking your questions.  There's hardly a question or topic posted on here that doesn't provoke some negative remarks.  For this slave, the questions you asked were thoughtful and interesting.  i was very interested in reading the responses from subs/slaves who could give their personal insight into the "whys" of using 3rd person speech.  i enjoyed reading the responses from those who did answer.  i hope that their responses didn't get lost in the responses that didn't answer your questions but, instead only critized the usage of 3rd person speech and Uppercase/lowercase writing.
 
The main thing that i wanted to say is that whatever form or style of self-expression each person chooses to use in their speaking and writing, or is required to use by their Master/Mistress, is a personal matter.  It is no different than each of us being able to choose how we dress, style our hair, or otherwise present ourselves to the rest of the world. 
 
For some, hearing and/or reading 3rd person speech or seeing the use of Uppercase/lowercase lettering is annoying or wrong but, for the one using it, it is natural and right.  Everyone is (or should be) able to express themself the way that fits their personality and preference, without fear of being belittled or criticized by the style or grammar police. 
 
We each should be able to express ourself in whatever way fits and feels right for us and not be made to feel that we have to conform to someone else's standards/style/taste.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David



zindyslave -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 8:54:20 PM)

Thank you slavegirljoy, the responses from the people that answered my questions didn't get lost in the other responses to me at least I did get some insight to what I was wondering. I do know now that the way they speak is what feels natural to them just like when I am talking in a chat room and I use what some call slash speak. I feel natural speaking that way. I do at times think that it is hard to read third person speech, but some on here know how to use it eloquently enough that it comes out fluently and is read very easily. I know the more of it I read the more I will be able to read it easily.



Aswad -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 9:49:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: livenlearn

Speaking in third person is a way of making sure that a submissive/slave remembers their place. It's a way of forcing them to acknowledge that they are 'subservient'.


I don't think so. Try doing it for yourself a little while. You will find that the way the mind works is to make a habit of it, kind of like learning a new dialect.

According to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, language affects cognition, and is inseperably tied to it, as is the case for language patterns. By extension, and adding information about the difficulties faced by Japanese women in managerial positions, we can deduce that changing the language or speech patterns sufficiently can change cognitions and thought patterns.

Third person speech does not achieve this, however, as it is a language already mastered, and frequently the native language of that person, meaning it is processed in the primary language centres. It is what the person puts into it that does the job, not the mangling (my opinion, as a reader and listener) of the language.

If one desires to achieve the goals you stated or, more fundamentally, the ones I gave (changing the thought patterns), then a better choice would be to make a fundamental alteration to the speech patterns, or learn a language that has status embedded as a part of language.

With regard to the former, I will start by illustrating the common pattern, using an example from this thread: "This poster recognizes that both these examples are irrelevant to the thread, but he couldn't resist sharing them." As you can see, this is simple substitution, not an altered pattern. The unsubstituted version would be: "I recognize that both these examples are irrelevant to the thread, but I couldn't resist sharing them." Not a big difference. A change in the pattern would be to say: "Both these examples are irrelevant to the thread, but they are included here for your consideration." That's a different mode of speech, and a different pattern.

Instead of changing the form of self-reference, eliminate self-reference. Write and talk about the world without including yourself as a topic. That requires a lot more work to get into the habit of, and it is a habit that will gradually shift thought patterns away from "self".

Similarly, rather than changing "Should I get you a cup of tea?" to "Should this one get you a cup of tea?", it would be better to change it to "Do you want some tea?".

As to the other approach, learning another language, I frequently mention Japanese, for the simple reason that it has every feature required to eliminate the person speaking from what is being said, and because it has relative social standing as an important part of the language.

A woman (in Japan; we might substitute "submissive" instead in a BDSM context, that's a cultural legacy thing) will use more humble and deferential forms of the language, while a man (again, we could substitute "dominant") may, depending on status, go so far as to use a harsh imperative. Women pronounce the vowel "u" at the end of words, and elsewhere, most of the time; men often drop it.

Waga-hai, watakushi, watashi, boku, or ore could be used by a man to denote "I", depending on the setting and status. Women would not use boku or ore, but would add atashi to that list. Similarly, for "you", it is not common for women to use "omae" in addressing a man (IIRC). Wives address their husbands with the formal "anata".

It wouldn't be hard to construct a specific sociolect for use in BDSM, although the effort involved with that would be less amortized than the cost of the other approach.

quote:

Actually, it really has nothing at all to do with being Gorean; it started in chat rooms as a way of identifying who was slave and who was not.


It appears to be more common among Goreans, however. Of course, I could have been exposed to an unrepresentative sample.

It is a thing from the books, though. The whole "speak like a slave!" thing...



Aswad -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 9:55:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsLadySue

I find third person speech annoying also, not only is it difficult to understand, but it leaves me with the impression this person no longer identifies themself as an individual with a mind of their own.


Nothing wrong with that, if that's their thing.

Many cultures hold the reduction of ego as a good thing; some hold its elimination as the ultimate expression of perfection.

My objection has simply been that it impairs communication, while the same goal could be more easily achieved through means that do not, such as expressing things without oneself as a subject of what is said.



Aswad -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 10:14:16 PM)

(This reply written using third person speech to make a simple point about how easy it is, and how it does not lessen this Dom's sense of self or cause greater mindfulness; impaired ease of reading is a side-effect that the poster hopes will not be a problem for those who dislike the convention as much as the poster does.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

the slave doesn't own herself, her master does, so she has no right to say "I, me, mine, my" it would imply ownership of themselves.


It is the role of pronouns in the language to shorten identity references, no more.

The first person form nominative pronoun does not imply ownership of oneself, it is merely the complement of all other than oneself, cast in the role of subject. This one has on many occasions said that the bus had failed to arrive, without implying anything about the ownership or identity of the bus, merely stating a fact about it in a manner that casts the bus as an actor. If one should desire not to cast a submissive as an actor in a sentence, the use of third person speech is not the solution, as it retains the nominative clause, with the submissive as the subject.

Similarly, the accusative form of the pronoun is a simple reference. "The book" becomes "it", and so forth. The first person pronoun does the same for oneself.

Using the genitive form of the pronoun might be inadvisable, and this one can understand why some Doms would want their property to avoid it. Without getting into a debate over the validity of the concept of property, this one does find the concept of recursive ownership to be somewhat iffy.

quote:

Speaking third constantly reminds them of their place as a slave and they have to think carefully before they speak or type.


This one would point out that it was with no great difficulty this was typed, despite the absence of reference to an identy of self or use of the first person. With a little bit of practice, or so this one has concluded, it is trivial, and does not impact what is said or what is thought to a significant extent. Nor has this one found it to require great care, or to require mindfulness beyond the first few minutes.

In fact, this one regularly authors texts in which it would be unconventional or inappropriate to maintain any familiarity with the readership. In such cases, this one usually phrases any self-reference in the third person, and uses them only when required to distinguish opinions and personal commentary from the body of the text. The typical wording in such a context would be "this author".

In short, the proper use of pronouns serves to make this one less confused.


No offense was intended by this poster in employing third-person speech throughout this post; nor does this imply anything to the effect that this poster identifies as a submissive or a slave. It serves the purpose of illustration, nothing more.

P.S. For a difficult constraint on writing, this author would point out that writing without an abundantly drawn glyph, fifth among Latin glyphs, is a hobby of his, as shown in this postscript.



Aswad -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 10:24:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

But speaking in third person doesn't take away a sense of self, it just redefines "self." Speaking in third person doesn't take away ego, it just restructures it.


~nod~

One might even go so far as to say that it doesn't even restructure it. It might be better to use the "one" form instead; that is at least vague as to the person indicated, and less directly identifying.

quote:

You're still being possessive by saying "She" and "her." Those are still possessive words. SOMEONE is still doing those things, and that SOMEONE is you.


I wouldn't say possessive words. Rather, identity words.

And any reference to self is identity, regardless of how it is written.

As a potentially interesting, somewhat, on-topic thread, this is the main remaining obstacle to the creation of artificial intelligence, one that depends on developing visual (or otherwise) object recognition. Once a machine can identify objects, their type/class and properties, and so forth, even if only a fraction as well as a human, there exists the potential for identity.

Language is concerned with identity, with reference.

This is one of the meanings embedded in the koan "If there is no Other, how can there be Self".

Back to the bit about AI, that runs both ways. Once a machine can identify objects, it can use language to refer to those identities. Further, it then has the concept of "Other", and the complement of this is "Self". Reference to "self" in an intelligent, interacting system is self-awareness, by many definitions.

quote:

Oddly enough I have randomly spoken in third person for as long as I can remember. Usually it's in a humorous way, or an arrogant way (again, all third person does is REDEFINE possession, it can be used to ENHANCE one's position), and as I got older, people around me thought it was weird when I suddenly burst into a sentence that used third person.


Sounds familiar, though I've mostly done it in writing. Kind of like "these words are not me, and not spoken by me, so they should refer to me as me, rather than referring to the written medium as me".

Also, in Japanese, many "pompous" or "arrogant" ways to refer to oneself appear to be third-person. There is some of this in Norwegian as well. It is similar to using the plural first-person in that regard; one is worthy of special mention.



Aswad -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 10:31:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

i can only speak for this slave but, for me, i simply write how i feel.


Always appreciated. [:)]

quote:

Sometimes, i just feel more like a piece of my Master's property rather than an autonomous individual. That's a good feeling for me, which i truly love and would like to have more often.


Perhaps, based on liking the absence of a sense of an autonomous individual, you might like to experiment with my suggestion about removing the "self" from what is said for a while, if your Master approves?

It would be an interesting thing to get feedback on for myself (I don't have neph doing this, as many of her tasks require a sense of self), and I'm sure others would like to know if there is a difference in how that affects the mind.

quote:

When i am in "subspace" i tend to have a feeling that i am not in my own skin, something like a "near out-of-body" experience, and i tend to write in the 3rd person and i will speak about what this slave is feeling, experiencing, etc., not what "i" am feeling, etc.


Your description sounds a bit like dissociation, which does feel good when it happens, at least for me.

In that sense, it could be seen as the consciousness/self separating from the rest, with the rest being property and the self being distinct from what is property. Thus, the self refers to the rest, although it makes no self-reference.

Just food for thought.



Aswad -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 10:33:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Why would a person using third speech use "her" to refer to themselves? Her would mean someone else, not oneself. i have heard them say "this one" "this girl" "this slave"  or just their own name. 


It's a ritual.

The exact form, or what content it might be construed to have, is not the important part.

It takes the role of a proxy, or whatever you want to call it. An external enabler for an internal process. As such, it is a learned association, or a projection, not a feature of third person speech itself.



Aswad -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 10:49:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fairerthanshe

Since I am one of the foremost culprits of third on the Gorean side, it was difficult not to feel as though the posts were aimed at me.


In all fairness, no pun intended, your posts are generally intelligible. [:D]

There is a difference between using it in such a way that it interferes with communication, which I think is what most complainants (sp?) here are commenting on, and using it in such a way that it doesn't.

quote:

[...] and one in particular who requires third person Shakespearean English. It is a delight to communicate with that Master!


I can see why that would be a delight; 15th century English is one of the more entertaining speech constraints I've heard of so far.

Have you tried writing in lipograms? That's a hobby of mine. Dropping "e" impacts communication unless extreme amounts of care are taken, but other letters are less difficult to work around. Quick way to learn lots of new words, too, in searching for words that don't contain the banned ones. [sm=lol.gif]



Aswad -> RE: Third speak... (5/31/2007 10:53:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

I erred in my response. I went with how I felt about it rather than the reason behind its usage. [...] Sorry.


I'll add mine to that apology. Not my week, apparently.



slavegirljoy -> RE: Third speak... (6/1/2007 7:25:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

i can only speak for this slave but, for me, i simply write how i feel.


Always appreciated. [:)]

quote:

Sometimes, i just feel more like a piece of my Master's property rather than an autonomous individual. That's a good feeling for me, which i truly love and would like to have more often.


Perhaps, based on liking the absence of a sense of an autonomous individual, you might like to experiment with my suggestion about removing the "self" from what is said for a while, if your Master approves?

 
Thank you for your feedback, Aswad. 
 
i rarely ever speak to my Master using any reference to myself.  It wasn't anything that He required or that i had to learn.  It was just my natural way of speaking to Him, that was totally different from the way that i speak to everyone else, although it is very much the way that i used to speak to customers when i was waitressing. 
 
Examples:  "Would You like another cup of coffee, Sir?"  "What would You like for breakfast, Sir?"  "Are You comfortable, Sir?"  "Is there anything else You would like, Sir?"
 
Exception:  "Is there anything i can do for You, Sir?"  And, whenever my Master is engaging me in a conversation where He is asking my thoughts/views/opinions on various topics, then i will say, "i think....." or "i feel....."

quote:

It would be an interesting thing to get feedback on for myself (I don't have neph doing this, as many of her tasks require a sense of self), and I'm sure others would like to know if there is a difference in how that affects the mind.

quote:

When i am in "subspace" i tend to have a feeling that i am not in my own skin, something like a "near out-of-body" experience, and i tend to write in the 3rd person and i will speak about what this slave is feeling, experiencing, etc., not what "i" am feeling, etc.


Your description sounds a bit like dissociation, which does feel good when it happens, at least for me.

In that sense, it could be seen as the consciousness/self separating from the rest, with the rest being property and the self being distinct from what is property. Thus, the self refers to the rest, although it makes no self-reference.

Just food for thought.

Actually, i like the feeling so much, that sometimes i wish i could stay in it always, but that notion also scares me a little.  But, then again, my Master tells me that i like being scared.  He would know.
 
For me, "subspace" is very much an Altered State of Consciousness and my Master can put me in it very quickly.  When i am in that state, i do find myself automatically using 3rd speak, such as, "Master, Your slave thanks You" and "Master, Your slave is feeling very dizzy (or tingly or ......). 
 
While my Master has never required me to speak to Him in any particular manner, other than respectfully and to address Him as "Master" or "Sir", He does seem to enjoy it when i do speak in 3rd person to Him because this is a noticable change from how i usually speak to Him and He realizes that when i do this He has accomplished putting me into that subspace state of mind and He likes that. 
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David



zindyslave -> RE: Third speak... (6/1/2007 7:40:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

I erred in my response. I went with how I felt about it rather than the reason behind its usage. [...] Sorry.


I'll add mine to that apology. Not my week, apparently.




I don't mind people sharing their thoughts on this...no need to apologize I posted it for discussion. I appreciate all the insight I have gained on anything I have posted. Thank you, for sharing your thoughts.



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