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Followership (or the corporate version of the submissive) - 5/20/2005 5:58:34 PM   
LadyAngelika


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There are times when you are at your job, in school or something of the sort and something that you learn makes every part of your life just come together and you get that little feeling of personal gestalt and for that small moment in time, it all makes sense.

Ok. Well this moment was kind of like that. ;)

Within the context of researching leadership, a colleague directed me some resources on followership. I started reading the text and I automatically thought of all of you. I’m going to put some of my own comments in red. Also, take the taglines that relate to jobs and shift them around a bit to apply to relationships.

Five reasons to follow
(source: http://changingminds.org/disciplines/leadership/followership/follower_five_reasons.htm)

There are many reasons to follow. Here are five levels of rationale that followers can use when deciding to follow a leader. Note how they start off as negative and become more positive. If you are seeking to lead people, it is a jolly good idea to get a good understanding of why will they follow you.

Fear of retribution
"If I do not follow, I may lose my job!"

Following out of fear is not so much following as being tugged along at the end of a rope. The leader in such cases is using coercive push methods that will work only as long as the follower sees no other choice.

Fear is not the tool of effective leaders (and certainly not ethical leaders). At best, fear-based approaches gain weak commitment and need constant attention lest the follower freezes or flees.

-- Excellent point. Though the differention between playing with elements of fear in a relationship where trust is strong is a whole different ball game.

Blind hope
"We must do something. I hope this works!"

Here, the follower is desperate for some solution, and what the leader is offering is either the only option they see or the best of a relatively weak set of choices. The follower is thus not so much following out of agreement but from a lack of alternatives.

Leaders should watch out for hopeful followers, who are likely either to be disappointed and disillusioned when less than a perfect outcome ensues, or who will jump ship and follow others if they give them more hope.

-- This makes me think of situations in which I hear submissives settle for situations where there is abuse.

Faith in leader
"What a great person. If anyone knows the answer, they do!"

In this situation, the follower is blind to the solution but is following because they have such faith in the leader, they believe that they will, by some magic or genius, provide the answer to the follower's needs.

Again, there is significant hope in this motivation and could lead to disappointment, but at least there is more commitment to the leader, and failure is more likely to lead to the follower accepting situational explanations rather than point the finger at inadequacies in the leader's capabilities.

-- Newsflash: Dominants are not always right!

Intellectual agreement
"What a good idea. That makes real sense."

Here, the follower understands the logic of the argument that the leader is putting forward and hence is following the rationale rather than the leader as a person, who they may respect but are not blindly following.

This level of followership is typical of educated people who need to understand the reasons why things happen. They may also have emotional commitment, but it typically comes on after rational buy-in has occurred.

-- Now this, to me, sounds like a legitimate reason to obey/follow someone. They have earned your respect.

Buying the vision
"What a brilliant idea. I don't care who thought of it."

When people buy a vision, they are emotionally closing on a view of the future that is appealing to them in some way and pulls them forward. They are not following the leader and the logic of how they will get to the vision is something they are happy to put off to a later date.

Visions are much talked about in the leadership literature, and can be remarkably effective at motivating people, but only if they can be sustained over a period of time. It is one thing to have a vision and it is another to keep going during the difficult days that are typical of the journey there.

-- I could go on and on about this. I think it's so important for each and everyone of us to take a moment and try to envision what is the ideal relationship for us. You have to be realistic. Then, we go out looking for something that resembles it.

_______________

This was a nice little break from everything I have been reading on leadership. It was interesting to see the motivations why people follow.

- LA


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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/20/2005 10:41:47 PM   
Lepidoptera


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This is a little bit off topic, but I saw in your post another analogy...

Five reasons to follow the Christian faith...

Fear of retribution
"If I do not follow God's word, I may go to Hell!"

Blind hope
"I'm terrified of death. I hope this is true!"

Faith in leader
"Jesus was a great person. If anyone knows the answer, he does!"

Intellectual agreement
"Treat others as you want to be treated... That makes a lot sense."

Buying the vision
"The Christian phliosophy is wonderful. I don't care if the Bible is accurate."


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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 6:22:40 AM   
kisshou


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Did you see the Lord of the Rings movie? Where Sam follows Frodo, he sticks with him through it all.

Here was a great cause , an important mission but that was not Sam's focus.

Sam was never sure that Frodo would be successful with the mission.

Sam followed because he was loyal.

I have been a follower my whole life.

I am follow because I am loyal.

I think loyalty comes from faith in leader plus honouring your commitment.

In Sams case to the fellowship.


In a slaves case the slaves commitment to the relationship.


PS I always thought it was so cute how Sam called him, 'Mr. Frodo" *grins*


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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 7:06:48 AM   
happypervert


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quote:

If you are seeking to lead people, it is a jolly good idea to get a good understanding of why will they follow you.

This looks like the flipside of understanding what kind of power you have, but I guess if you were researching leadership you already know that. I recall 3 different types of power though over the years I think they've subdivided it to 5 or more; there were also 3 different leadership styles as I recall. Let's see how they match up:

Position Power for giving rewards/punishments -> Fear of retribution

Charismatic leader -> Blind hope
1 type of leader was the "don't make waves" bureaucrat type who is useful when everything is fine; the opposite is is the charismatic type who is one that folks are naturally drawn to and he's especially effective in times of uncertainty and change

Referrent power -> Faith in leader
referrent power comes from being somebody people admire and they wnt to emulate

Expert power ->Intellectual agreement

dunno -> Buying the vision
don't quite see a 1 to 1 match here, though maybe it is a combination

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 7:39:03 AM   
LordODiscipline


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I like this from several perspectives...but, we always must remember that check lists like this are (exceptionally) one dimensional - attributing a singular motivation to people for their behavior and/or beliefs.

Unfortunately, we (people) are much more complex than a one dimensional representation could ever represent... so, to catagorize anyone (for the reason that they 'do' in the work place, to their religion, to their rationality for their submission) often broaches discontent in the personality being analyzed in such a manner and blanches the spirit (read: pisses them off).

A better representation would be for a person to be asked to see themselves in any or multiples of the check list, and/or add their own reasoning for portions of their behavior. It gives a better picture of wh they actually are.

~J

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 9:35:57 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Did you see the Lord of the Rings movie? Where Sam follows Frodo, he sticks with him through it all.

Here was a great cause , an important mission but that was not Sam's focus.

Sam was never sure that Frodo would be successful with the mission.

Sam followed because he was loyal.

I have been a follower my whole life.

I am follow because I am loyal.

I think loyalty comes from faith in leader plus honouring your commitment.

In Sams case to the fellowship.


In a slaves case the slaves commitment to the relationship.


PS I always thought it was so cute how Sam called him, 'Mr. Frodo" *grins*


Sam followed frodo, because he made a promise. He made the promise trusting that the end result was the one he would grow best through. He was loyal, yes, but his loyalty wasn't blind and his loyalty definately wasn't because he was a follower - its because he believed.

Loyalty isn't just about following - it's about support and assisting.

Peace and Love


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 10:13:02 AM   
kisshou


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ohhhhhh Angel!!!

thank you, you said what I wanted to say , but you did it so much better than me

I am actually wiggling with happiness here, maybe I should run all my posts through the dark~angel feelings to words translator first :)

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 11:19:42 AM   
Lepidoptera


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

I like this from several perspectives...but, we always must remember that check lists like this are (exceptionally) one dimensional - attributing a singular motivation to people for their behavior and/or beliefs.

Unfortunately, we (people) are much more complex than a one dimensional representation could ever represent... so, to catagorize anyone (for the reason that they 'do' in the work place, to their religion, to their rationality for their submission) often broaches discontent in the personality being analyzed in such a manner and blanches the spirit (read: pisses them off).

A better representation would be for a person to be asked to see themselves in any or multiples of the check list, and/or add their own reasoning for portions of their behavior. It gives a better picture of wh they actually are.

~J



Unfortunately, individuals are not particularily good at introspection- at least not at doing it accurately. They usually see what they want to see. Freud was great at psycho analazing his patients, and really helped a great deal of them, but when it came to himself, he was totally blind.

People may think that they believe in something for one reason, but actually believe in it for an entirely seperate reason.

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 2:47:46 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lepidoptera
This is a little bit off topic, but I saw in your post another analogy...


Yes, it seems to work in all power dynamics.

- LA


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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 2:47:56 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
Did you see the Lord of the Rings movie?


Actually, no. But I get the drift from your and dark~angel's account.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
Loyalty isn't just about following - it's about support and assisting.


I couldn't agree with you more.

- LA

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 3:14:28 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

quote:

If you are seeking to lead people, it is a jolly good idea to get a good understanding of why will they follow you.

This looks like the flipside of understanding what kind of power you have, but I guess if you were researching leadership you already know that. I recall 3 different types of power though over the years I think they've subdivided it to 5 or more; there were also 3 different leadership styles as I recall.


I actually know the model as five. In this model, charismatic leader is the same as referent power.

The five are:
- Legitimate power: type of power given to someone who has been granted or earned the right to demanded power. E.g.: Law enforcement agent, royalty, community elder
- Reward power: type of power which begins with creating an expectation with the follower that optimal performance will be rewarded (Carrot)
- Coercive power: type of power when you have the ability to punish to those who do not comply (Stick)
- Expert power: type of power that people who have a special skill set or expertise will earn
- Referent power: type of power that charismatic leaders have; people want to identify with them

I agree with your association that expert power is intellectual agreement.

But in my opinion, referent/charismatic is about buying the vision. It’s about identification with an icon. Let’s take the Nike logo for example. What are you buying into when you are wearing a t-shirt with a huge Nike logo? Is it the “Just Do It!” philosophy? Or is it the “Get it done in a developing country’s sweatshop for a fraction of the price” philosophy? Probably the first. The second is more a detractor from buying into the vision. Either way, there is much more to do with brand identification then blind hope or faith in the leader.

I propose the following alignments. What do you think?

- Legitimate power – aligned with Faith in leader
- Reward power – aligned with Blind hope
- Coercive power – aligned with Fear of retribution
- Expert power – aligned with Intellectual agreement
- Referent power – aligned with Buying the vision

- LA

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 3:22:06 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lepidoptera
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

I like this from several perspectives...but, we always must remember that check lists like this are (exceptionally) one dimensional - attributing a singular motivation to people for their behavior and/or beliefs.

Unfortunately, we (people) are much more complex than a one dimensional representation could ever represent... so, to catagorize anyone (for the reason that they 'do' in the work place, to their religion, to their rationality for their submission) often broaches discontent in the personality being analyzed in such a manner and blanches the spirit (read: pisses them off).

A better representation would be for a person to be asked to see themselves in any or multiples of the check list, and/or add their own reasoning for portions of their behavior. It gives a better picture of wh they actually are.

~J



Unfortunately, individuals are not particularily good at introspection- at least not at doing it accurately. They usually see what they want to see. Freud was great at psycho analazing his patients, and really helped a great deal of them, but when it came to himself, he was totally blind.

People may think that they believe in something for one reason, but actually believe in it for an entirely seperate reason.


First, I will propose that this is a model, not a checklist.

Second, I will propose that this model is based on archetypes. (Most are familiar with archetypes so I will not into it in depth though the wikipedia is always an excellent resource to learn about these things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype).

I believe that we all agree that humans are complex and multi-faceted. However, though we are all beautiful and unique snowflakes, even snowflakes have patterns!

- LA

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 10:09:08 PM   
LordODiscipline


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lepidoptera

Unfortunately, individuals are not particularily good at introspection- at least not at doing it accurately. They usually see what they want to see. Freud was great at psycho analazing his patients, and really helped a great deal of them, but when it came to himself, he was totally blind.

People may think that they believe in something for one reason, but actually believe in it for an entirely seperate reason.


I was not necessarily referring to how a person perceives 'themself', I was speaking to 'how' they are catagorized.... (by themself and by others)... although checksheets such as this might provide insight, they do not provide answers...

Much as Angelika mentions...

...(and, Freud was not all that good.... just very innovative, fresh thinking, and self-promoting)

~J

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/21/2005 10:24:00 PM   
suberic101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lepidoptera

This is a little bit off topic, but I saw in your post another analogy...

Five reasons to follow the Christian faith...

Fear of retribution
"If I do not follow God's word, I may go to Hell!"

Blind hope
"I'm terrified of death. I hope this is true!"

Faith in leader
"Jesus was a great person. If anyone knows the answer, he does!"

Intellectual agreement
"Treat others as you want to be treated... That makes a lot sense."

Buying the vision
"The Christian phliosophy is wonderful. I don't care if the Bible is accurate."




Your all analogy doesn't even come close to being a 'list' of the reasons one holds to a faith. Of course, westerners view everything in a materialistic context, so it seems to work, and make sense. I actually do believe that the Bible is infallible. Only because God is capable of keeping his word true.

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/22/2005 12:20:58 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: suberic101
Your all analogy doesn't even come close to being a 'list' of the reasons one holds to a faith. Of course, westerners view everything in a materialistic context, so it seems to work, and make sense. I actually do believe that the Bible is infallible. Only because God is capable of keeping his word true.


Well not everyone believes that the Bible is infallible. Not everyone believes in the concept of God.

It is my perception as an atheist that Lepidoptera was bang on. It is a very common perception as well. Does that make it right? No. Does it make it any less right then your perception? Again, no.

I was raised as a catholic and what she posts is exactly the kind of thought patterns that those entrusted with my religious education tried to instill in me.

That said, I respect your beliefs. But understand that other people have the right to their perception on things, even if they don't fit with yours.

- LA

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/23/2005 9:43:04 AM   
happypervert


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quote:

I propose the following alignments. What do you think?

I think we could discuss this until we're blue in the face, but when it comes to actually applying it to someone who would follow us we'd forget all the theory and just figure that they find us completely wonderful and irresistible . . . or is that referrent power? heh

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/23/2005 12:00:33 PM   
LadyAngelika


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I agree. Sometimes I wonder if my power isn't all in my J-Lo'esque booty ;)

- LA

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/25/2005 5:42:27 PM   
FangsNfeet


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As always, it's nice to find something that points to the life style. Thanks for the report LA

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/26/2005 5:16:24 AM   
Padriag


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I like this thread very much and when I have time I'd like to make more of a response to it. I have long been an advocate that leadership principles are very appropriate and applicable to this lifestyle for dominants. I strongly believe that the same traits that make a good leader in business, the military, etc. contributes to making a good dominant in this lifestyle. I think anyone who is interested in this would find many of the books by John C Maxwell useful to read, but in particular "Developing the Leader Within You", "The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership" and "The 21 Indispensable Qualities of a Leader".

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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/27/2005 4:59:39 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

As always, it's nice to find something that points to the life style. Thanks for the report LA


My pleasure of course. As you know, wiitwd, and what some of you consider a lifestyle, didn't just spring up one day out of the blue! I also enjoy seeing the dynamics elsewhere. It kind of brings it all together.

- LA

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