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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/27/2005 5:02:22 AM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I like this thread very much and when I have time I'd like to make more of a response to it.

I'd love that, as I'm sure others would too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I have long been an advocate that leadership principles are very appropriate and applicable to this lifestyle for dominants. I strongly believe that the same traits that make a good leader in business, the military, etc. contributes to making a good dominant in this lifestyle. I think anyone who is interested in this would find many of the books by John C Maxwell useful to read, but in particular "Developing the Leader Within You", "The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership" and "The 21 Indispensable Qualities of a Leader".



I agree with you about aoplying leadership principles do dominance. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that every dominant get aquaited with some if she/he has not already.

Thank you for the references. Much appreciated!

- LA


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/27/2005 5:03:23 AM >


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/27/2005 7:12:50 PM   
k8


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Joined: 12/16/2004
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quote:

I agree with you about aoplying leadership principles do dominance. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that every dominant get aquaited with some if she/he has not already.


ITA with you and Padraig. I prefer D/s relationships that follow a "business" model. I like a Dom who is a leader, authoritative without being authoritarian or a bully, and I prefer to be a loyal and talented subordinate, not property or a pet.

These days, it's getting harder to find a Dom who understands that I don't want the relationship to consist solely of beating me, humiliating me, and treating me as a slave. No offense to those who do want that, but I wouldn't take that on the job and I sure won't take it in my personal life. My joy is in being equal as a human but subordinate in the relationship.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 5/28/2005 6:42:29 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

These days, it's getting harder to find a Dom who understands that I don't want the relationship to consist solely of beating me, humiliating me, and treating me as a slave. No offense to those who do want that, but I wouldn't take that on the job and I sure won't take it in my personal life. My joy is in being equal as a human but subordinate in the relationship.


I believe there is a certain percentage of the people who are involved with wiitwd that get this. I have a hard time finding submissives that think the way you do actually.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to k8)
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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 6/2/2005 4:04:10 AM   
Padriag


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Its been really hectic here lately so I haven't had time to post much lately. Getting ready to move and also working on a writing project for publication that needs to be finished up in June. Its all keeping me very busy.

There is so much that can be said on this topic, and I think needs to be said. I think with a better understanding of leadership, what it is and what it means, it would change they way many dominants and submissives look at their roles in this lifestyle.

Fear of Retribution is the classic means of domineering behavior. Dominance through force. Its probably the most common means of exerting control over others in the world, the simplest and easiest to employ, and the most direct means. Nothing subtle about it, nothing sophisticated about it. There are times when it is appropriate and useful, even in this lifestyle. There are times when a dominant needs to exert physical control. But it does not have to take the form of brutality and I don't believe its healthy to build a relationship around this means of dominance alone.

Blind Hope is born out of fear, not of retribution, but a complete lack of faith in self. A lack of faith that the individual can themselves deal with lifes problems successfully, so they look to the leadership of someone who seems more capable. How fragile the faith is has less to do with how capable the leader is an more to do with how incapable the follower is. You see it in relationships where one partner constantly forgives the other no matter how many times they cheat, lie, etc.; the follower has no faith in themselves to find anything better so they cling to what they have.

Faith in a Leader is fairly common in this lifestyle. Many submissives look up to the dominants and expect them to be almost superhuman. It puts a great deal of pressure on dominants to be successful in life, business, as well as top notch dominants. Sometimes that pressure is helpful, but at other times it becomes too much and the dominant goes to unhealthy extremes trying to maintain that image. This kind of followership is best when its realistic, when the leader is admired for who they are and those things they are good at, without the expectation that they have super human ability to be good at everything.

Intellectual Agreement is something I've found to be rare, and perhaps the weakest form of leadership, but is an especially weak form of dominance. The reason being is that it invited the questioning of authority. A leader is only a leader as long, and so far, as they are capable of articulating and defending their ideas. If a leader can't make the idea sound good, even if its a good idea, then their leadership falls into question and may be short lived. That's fine in a democracy where the questioning of authority is part of the process, but in a dominant / submissive relationship it weakens the dynamic.

Buying the Vision falls somewhere between faith in a leader and intellectual agreement. It doesn't invite questioning because it presents the idea as being that of the leader... this is what they are going to do, are you in or out? If you're in, that means accepting and following the leader and the leader's vision. For a dominant within this lifestyle that means being clear about the lifestyle you are trying to achieve, what you are offering, what you will expect, etc. If the submissive buys into that, then they buy into your leadership and you go from there. If they don't buy into it, they're out.

I'll try to post some more later, wrote this while having breakfast this morning.

Oh, and K8, you might find this article Slavery in Ancient Greece interesting. Though they practiced slavery, their treatment of their slaves was generally nothing like the image most people have. To them, being human and being property weren't contradictions. Slaves were often treated as family members, and on the whole treated very well; especially when you compare their treatment to later forms of slavery, most notably blacks in Europe, the Americas and Carribean during the 1600s - early 1800s


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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 6/3/2005 8:57:28 AM   
afmvdp


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Interesting concept, though I can't say I would ever want someone to follow me purely out of Blind Hope or Fear. While I do believe that elements of such are necessary in a functional positional relationship. The biggest thing that seperates the relations that we hold high, and a standard relation is that we are upfront and aware of the roles we are to play and we delight and take enjoyment in those roles rather than the ambiguity and confusion of commonplace that all too often fills only bits of the void. As a naturally dominant person, I strive both in business and relationships to be the "leader" or "boss" so to speak, as that is the position that I am best fit to fill and the one in which I can be the most beneficial both to myself and to others.

Perhaps taking upon this concept, and furthering it with my own personal trends to be the "father figure" to so many, it is to me the ultimate goal to provide this clear vision you mentioned. To put forth my grandest idea for the what may be and what shall become. In this, I feel I am again most beneficial to them, and feel the greatest satisfaction myself. To me there is nothing that brings joy to my heart than to see the finished work of our labor and the beauty of my new creation. Maybe in your analogy, that would make more more of an entrepreneur.

Btw, good to see some familar faces still around the boards.

(in reply to Padriag)
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RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 6/3/2005 5:26:51 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I think with a better understanding of leadership, what it is and what it means, it would change they way many dominants and submissives look at their roles in this lifestyle.

I think it would change the way many people look at themselves!

Thanks for your contribution. It was a great read.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Followership (or the corporate version of the submi... - 6/3/2005 5:29:58 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Btw, good to see some familar faces still around the boards.


Oh now seeing your face here today just made my day <super big wicked grin><

- LA



_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to afmvdp)
Profile   Post #: 27
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