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RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 1:58:21 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Exactly why I think people make a basic mistake by misapplying a legal concept in a psychological context.  Leave "consent" to courts of law, where it has a precise definition.  In the not-so-pretty world of emotional relationships, it's too simplistic to be of much use.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 2:17:04 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Actually, while the situations you describe for a minor to become emancipated are the typical ones, the law in most case would allow for a child progeny to apply for emancipation based on their situation of being able to prove that they have the intelligence and maturity to conduct themselves in an adult role.  The reasoning that giving up a "free home" in order to live their life as an adult is, in itself, contradictory to being able to conduct oneself as an adult.

You are quite right that an emancipated minor cannot drink, join the military or drive.  What kind of civilized society wants to send a child to war, regardless of their intelligence?  Certainly, seeking the ability to drink is a reason to want to be able to make your own decisons.  Have to tell you, those are not very rational examples.  Yes, their inability to get a driver's license can be somewhat of a hinderance of their life, but then again it is quite a hinderance to all of those adults who have lost their license for one reason or another as well.

The rationale in a child progeny is really quite simple.  As a parent, you want your child to be all that they can be, but you also don't want them to grow up so fast that they don't have the chance to experience the joys of being a child. 

The bottom line though is that no child progeny has ever felt a need to attempt to emancipate themselves.  The complaints of not being able to do what they want, in essense, are the complaints of a child struggling with the constraints they have on their life for being a child.  Completely normal.  When you have a 14 year old who tells you they are old enough to make their own decisions, it will be much easier to understand this concept.  These types of things are a right of passage to growing up.

You are confusing "consideration" with "regret".  We, as adults, try to "consider" the ramifications, repurcussions, good and bad of actions we are going to take.  Many people "regret" having not considered in the first place.  Sadly, many people don't learn from one mistake, and continue to not appropriately consider what they are going to do and are doomed to live a life filled with regret. 

As for the loopholes being insignificant to the cost....

The perfect example is that ONE child progeny has to suffer through childhood, and MILLIONS of other children are protected to enjoy it.  I certainly would not call that insignificant. 

Smarter people take advantage of less intelligent people every day.  As P.T. Barnum said, "There is a sucker born every minute."  Certainly, I don't believe it is right.  However, having stood in a Court room and been able to make an argument that "beguiled" my adversary to have the case decided to my advantage, I would have to say that I am guilty of doing it.  I considered it carefully, and do NOT regret the outcome.  I have also repeated the behavior on many occassions.

Back to consent...its existence or non existence basically takes on different meanings within the context in which it used.  One consents to medical treatment and hopes they have chosen the right doctor.  One consents to joining the military and hopes to be honorably discharged alive with all their parts intact.  Within the lifestyle, consent is the word we use to indicate that we CHOOSE to engage in particular behavior that the rest of the world deems deviant.  The problems seem to arise out of the concept of whether or consent, once given can ever be withdrawn.  While this tends to be something that everyone has differing opinions on, especially within your "subculture", the easy answer is that yes, consent can be withdrawn any time.  I can consent to the first 5 strokes of a belt, and not consent to a 6th.  That is the actual reality.  The reality in which others live that say they can't is a whole other thread, and it is based on each individual situation as to what the outcome of such things are.  Because within the lifestyle, consent is just not as simple as its legal definitions.

I certainly hope that clears things up for you.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 2:33:41 PM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

On another thread (and on many threads) someone states that this lifestyle must be based at the most basic level on 100% consent. On that point I agree.

Then there are a countless threads(that one included) where submissives will admit that they need to have Dominants, Dommes, Masters, Mentors or Protectors because they lack the ability to make good decisions for themselves. They need someone to assume responsibility for their safety and care.

Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?

Greetings
 
I am not really sure where you are actually heading with this. I am an adult, fully capable of taking care of myself in ANY situation. I have been literally trained to kill, I am fluent in 3 languages, probably know more about cars than most mechanics, can tell you each and every name of any tree, anywhere in the US, and am an expert in the building of security systems.. Yet, I choose, willingly, and knowingly, to hand over all  responsibility for my care; physical, mental, psychological, and emotional; to Master.
 
My willingness to do this does in no way changes the fact that I can still care for myself in all ways.

I wish you well

melissa 

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 2:40:15 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

Greetings
 
I am not really sure where you are actually heading with this. I am an adult, fully capable of taking care of myself in ANY situation. I have been literally trained to kill, I am fluent in 3 languages, probably know more about cars than most mechanics, can tell you each and every name of any tree, anywhere in the US, and am an expert in the building of security systems.. Yet, I choose, willingly, and knowingly, to hand over all  responsibility for my care; physical, mental, psychological, and emotional; to Master.
 
My willingness to do this does in no way changes the fact that I can still care for myself in all ways.

I wish you well

melissa 


I believe we are talking about those who DON'T have your attributes.  It is one thing to say "I can and have made my own life decisions, but choose to live my life like this, knowing that if I need to I can care for myself again."  It is quite another to indicate that you can't take care of yourself or make good decisions in your life and so you seek someone else to do it for you.

(in reply to jauntyone)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 2:46:14 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

On another thread (and on many threads) someone states that this lifestyle must be based at the most basic level on 100% consent. On that point I agree.

Then there are a countless threads(that one included) where submissives will admit that they need to have Dominants, Dommes, Masters, Mentors or Protectors because they lack the ability to make good decisions for themselves. They need someone to assume responsibility for their safety and care.

Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?



You can't. Frankly you can't be sure of that even if someone says they don't need anyone(in fact those are the people you need to watch out for, they may be utterly clueless and not at all self-aware). The person saying "Hey I need someone to make decisions for me BETTER than I can" is at least cognizant of their issues. Just because someone says they can make good decisions for themselves doesn't mean they are not a few cookies short of a dozen anyway.



_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 2:52:23 PM   
CitizenCane


Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The idea of consent is closely  tied to the idea of free will. Obviously, if you don't have free will, your consent is meaningless. Of course, it's pretty much impossible to prove that we have free will, that we don't live in a deterministic universe in which all events were predetermined by the initial state of affairs at the Big Bang. On the other hand, we have the perception of having free will, of having the ability to make choices, and in that subjective sense, everything, including not choosing, becomes a choice.
The question of consent then becomes wrapped up in the question of competence.  If you have 'choice' but you don't understand what's going on, your choices are essentially random. If your 'choicemaking mechanism' is defective (you're crazy), your choices are fundamentally unsound. 'Consent' loses it's meaning in this context.
However, it's not possible to know all of the consequences of any choice. In this context, we are all making choices in an environment of ignorance. This ignorance undermines the notion of 'informed consent'.  Recognizing this, it's no longer possible to take an 'either-or' view of consent- consent occurs in a broad range of conditions of understanding and capacity. Yet, at any given moment, no matter how conditionally it is offered or limited it's scope, consent is an either-or proposition. Even when we reserve the right to withdraw consent, at a particular instant in time we either consent to an act or we don't.
The reality is that all of us always make choices in an environment of ignorance of the consequences. That includes making choices 'for' other people- in the sense that our choices affect other people. The notion of 'informed' is very limited, at best. This makes the notion of consent more of an emotional/perceptual question than something that can be objectively measured. We are left, really, with a person saying 'okay' or not, and then making up our own minds what the ethical thing to do is.



(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 2:59:42 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, you did make your views on empancipation more clear.  I thought you were trying to say it was a way for the young gifted to gain close the gap between their rights and those of a similar level through greater age significantly.

Still, no; there's no mistake in my "consider".  I'd ask you consider it again.

For one to consider, one thinks about the consquences before hand- not regret after the fact as you've mentioned.  In talking about one's ability to consider, I'm talking about one's ability to fully anticipate the consquences of one's actions versus the anticipation another may have- be it more or less.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:00:43 PM   
somethndif


Posts: 136
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

On another thread (and on many threads) someone states that this lifestyle must be based at the most basic level on 100% consent. On that point I agree.

Then there are a countless threads(that one included) where submissives will admit that they need to have Dominants, Dommes, Masters, Mentors or Protectors because they lack the ability to make good decisions for themselves. They need someone to assume responsibility for their safety and care.

Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?


There is a false assumption in your question, that is, that one can only give consent, or valid, meaningful consent to something that is good, or leads to a good outcome.  That's simply not true.  Consent and the outcome, good or bad, are two entirely separate things.  People consent to do stupid, harmful or self-destructive things all the time. 

The fact that the outcomes are bad, has nothing to do with the question of whether or not the person consented.

Dan   

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:16:01 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

On another thread (and on many threads) someone states that this lifestyle must be based at the most basic level on 100% consent. On that point I agree.

Then there are a countless threads(that one included) where submissives will admit that they need to have Dominants, Dommes, Masters, Mentors or Protectors because they lack the ability to make good decisions for themselves. They need someone to assume responsibility for their safety and care.

Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?

Greetings
 
I am not really sure where you are actually heading with this. I am an adult, fully capable of taking care of myself in ANY situation. I have been literally trained to kill, I am fluent in 3 languages, probably know more about cars than most mechanics, can tell you each and every name of any tree, anywhere in the US, and am an expert in the building of security systems.. Yet, I choose, willingly, and knowingly, to hand over all  responsibility for my care; physical, mental, psychological, and emotional; to Master.
 
My willingness to do this does in no way changes the fact that I can still care for myself in all ways.

I wish you well

melissa 


From my understanding of the OP's question, it's not slaves like you are being questioned. There are people who state that they can not take care of themselves and that they do not have good judgement. If they need a dominant to make decisions for them because they don't have good judgement, then how can they make a good judgement as to who would own them?

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 5/31/2007 3:21:56 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to jauntyone)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:19:21 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord


To me, this would beg the question, "What is consideration?"

Would one have "considered" the consquences of going through a door if he didn't know there  were spikes at the bottom?
Would one have "considered" the consquences of getting a loan at 25%, compounded monthly, if one was inept at Math?
Would one have "considered" the consquences of going to war against another nation, either through office or voting for such, if one was unable to anticipate the scope or magntidue of severity of such?
Would one have "considered" the consquences of sex if one didn't know how it'd make her feel a year later?

In the end, to me, it seems that "consideration" is the general concesus of what others believe they could have/should have done in similar shoes.  This method strikes me a silly convention, at best.



Sorry kiddo, all of your questions above are tensually in the past.  Therfore, they are no longer "consideration" but rather regret or even contemplation.  To consider after the fact is more like hindsight.  To consider prior to is to give thought about likely/possible outcomes produced by the act. 

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 5/31/2007 3:20:29 PM >

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:23:14 PM   
MyMastersOwn


Posts: 58
Joined: 5/24/2007
Status: offline 		Interesting thought Mist. And  a conversation Master and I just the other day. With all the changing i've gone through and going through. Some one asked me if I lost my ability to think for myself. Properly take care of myself. Make my own choices etc... I said but of course. They then asked if I was able to do so, why did I allow myself to be collared and give away my freedom to do so.

That question got me stumped. I do not think being collared means I have lost my ability to think and do and opinionate anything.  Yep we know some will dispute this, others will agree.. same ole same ole.. Everyones thought vary on everything.

But I agree with you.. that if someone actually admits to NOT being able to funtion alone in their lives. That they need ......and I mean...NEED.. someone to tend to them as we have seen so dicussed on these boards... how are they  able to give that 100 % consent when they can't choose between hambuger or cheeseburger by themselves. Makes no sense to me. But then again... (before the flames get thrown at me)... I'm interested to understand others thoughts on this. My mind isn't as closed as it use to be.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:27:36 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		Images from "The Exorcist" come to mind! LOL!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:27:38 PM   
MasterD4u2


Posts: 4
Joined: 5/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?



Hmm... interesting, The person didn't say they couldn't make decisions.... just that their Dom/Domme's were able to make better decisions than they can. I actually feel that it takes some intelligence for one to know enough about themselves to realize that there can be times where another person might have a better idea than their own. I also believe you don't have to be 100% of sound mind or body, as most of us are usually about 2% off from that 100% and we make decisions and grant consent everyday.

   You also mentioned that because a submissive knows that they need a certain domaneering person to guide them that they must be incapable of making descisions. Were I a submissive, this thought would have me bristleing. Perhaps the submissive knows they have made poor decisions in the past, and desire to not make the same mistakes again? or perhaps for a submissive it is simply easier to allow their Dom/Domme to make the decision for them?( as a submissive chooses their D/D's, and trusts their decision making abilities will be in their best interest. If this is not the case i would hope the submissive would run and find a new D/D who does.) There are many different reasons submissives choose to allow their decisions be made for them. One must not assume that simply because they are submissive to equate with incapable. Most submissives i have met often tend to be quite intelligent, and they often do not choose to be submissive it is simply who they are. I believe most submissives and Dom/Dommes discuss most issues of great importance together. I also believe that a Master, rather than decide for his submissive, would guide them to choosing the right decision themselves. Afterall... isn't that the best way for a Dom/Domme to grow their submissive into a better person? to enrich their submissive in all walks of life? I believe if one does, the reward for doing so far outweighs the effort given to do so.

     Having said that, I do however believe slaves on the otherhand might actually "need" (that is have an actual necessity for someone to make their decisions for them) their Dom/Domme to make their decisions. Of the slaves i have met it appeared to me that most lacked the desire/ability to make their decisions. I have noticed a few even become distressed if left to their own faculties for extended periods of time. Perhaps this is more what you were referring to.. Although i'm not experienced in dealing with slaves directly, and in honesty, it kinda creeps me out with their necessity for guidance.
    Anyways, hope this kinda helps you with your question..

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:32:06 PM   
MyMastersOwn


Posts: 58
Joined: 5/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I once was under a "collar pf protection" it lasted 24 hours... A friend of mine, Mike Duncan, suggested that my life was a mess and in constant turmoil and that I could use the assistance of an "Uber Dom," such as himself, to get my shit together and my life back in order....The catch was 100% complete honesty!!!  He said that we would meet every day and openly discuss what had transpired in the events of the previous day and he would make suggestions based upon my actions.  Our first meeting was to be the next day on Saturday afternoon.

So the next day we met at my place and we sat down at the kitchen table and he told me to tell him what had happened in the last twenty four hours.....So I began telling him of everything that had went down the previous day....I spoke for about fifteen minutes or so and I noticed that during this time that his mouth never closed, he didn't blink once and I could have swore that he stopped breathing.  When I was done he just sat there completely dumbfounded with the oddest expresion on his face....He finally moved after what seemed to be about ten minutes or so , he never said a word, just got up went to the counter and picked up a new bottle of Wild Turkey brought it back to the table, sat down, opened it and proceded to drink straight from the bottle....He would only stop drinking to utter things like, "Holy mother of God,"...and occasionally he would look in my direction and simply mutter, "Jesus Fucking Christ."  In about twenty minutes he had finished the bottle and he simply got up and walked out of the door.  From what I understand that he quit his job at IBM the next day and immediately entered the seminary.

To this day when I see Father Duncan he will immediately cross to the other side of the street, kiss his crucifix, stare directly at his feet and continue to cross himself as we pass by each other.

I need to find a new mentor....Anyone out there?....why must they all be such pussies?


True story or not.......this was funny as hell.... Thanks.. I needed to read this 3 times to make sure...and I still don't know if true or not. But the tears of laughter sure was...

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:34:31 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

I automatically assume that anyone who needs a protector probably can't function in the real world as an adult.    And with that thought, it is impossible for them to consent.


Ah, eloquence is so delightful

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 5/31/2007 3:35:11 PM >

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:49:06 PM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
<<snip>>Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?


Having a mentor does NOT mean that one is not capable of giving concent, having a mentor means just that, having a mentor, a good friend who you can turn to for advice, who can give advice on things that you may not know about. Experience is NOT something we are all born with, we learn, a mentor can help you gain experience and help you figure out what works for YOU, etc. Heinsight is 20/20, and a mentor can help that heinsight if you have not expereicnes xyz before an they have.

I am MORE than capable of giving concent or not; having a mentor does not change that; she is a good friend. She has also told me about others who are predators that at first glance do NOT appear to be predators, its called friendship and networking.

Having a menor has NOTHING to do with being capable, it has to do with experience.

_____________________________

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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:50:36 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

On another thread (and on many threads) someone states that this lifestyle must be based at the most basic level on 100% consent. On that point I agree.

Then there are a countless threads(that one included) where submissives will admit that they need to have Dominants, Dommes, Masters, Mentors or Protectors because they lack the ability to make good decisions for themselves. They need someone to assume responsibility for their safety and care.

i read this entire thread, thought about how new i am to all of this,  and still felt compelled to post my thoughts....
 
the only reason i can think of for giving someone else control of who you see or do not, and i do not refer to asking advice here, but the total handing over of a say so.....is to have someone to blame when it goes horribly wrong so you do not have to look in your self and say how the hell did i blow that call that badly....
 
this from a newbie who has called one so totally correctly and it led to bliss....and has called one so badly i wondered for weeks how i blew that call of another humans true self.
 
in the end i decided it is as simple as.......shit happens
 
thanks so much for this forum where i can read and laugh and hopefully learn a few things in the process.


Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 3:59:53 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

Having a menor has NOTHING to do with being capable, it has to do with experience.


You are right. But there is more then one slave on this board, and off-board as well, who has stated that "they do not trust their own judgement in life, and therefore they want a dominant to make all their decisions for them".

She is not talking about people who going to others for advice on a situation they don't have experience with, she is taking about people who view themselves as incapable of running their own lives.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 4:04:01 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?


I automatically assume that anyone who needs a protector probably can't function in the real world as an adult.    And with that thought, it is impossible for them to consent.  I think the "protector" kink is about knight-in-shining-armor doms and needy subs.  It fills a void for them, but I'm not interested in either type.




I'm not defending protectors because it is a silly notion but what defines "Functioning in the real world as an adult"?
Holding a job? Any job? Is there a minimum income you need to earn? Owning a home? Can you be a functioning adult if you rent? What if you still live at home with mom? Raising children..does that qualify? Owning a car and driving? or not? What if you use public transportation? Having a high school education?  What about a college degree? Does it need to be a 4 year or more? What if you dropped out of high school?...what defines "functioning as an adult in the real world? "

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Ability to consent - 5/31/2007 4:13:44 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Now I have to ask, if someone admittedly can not care for themselves or be trusted to make good decisions for themselves regarding their own safety or even who they should or shouldn't date....how then can we assume that they are capable of giving 100% consent?


Maybe, but there are tons of things that impair someones ability to give consent - like stupidity or being mentally ill.  As long as I'm not going to get involved with them then it probably doesn't matter much.

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to mistoferin)
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