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feminization - 6/1/2007 5:15:47 AM   
aviinterra


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Let me start off by saying that I am not into having my sub cross dress or feminizing him. While I do understand that we all have our own kinks, there is just a small thing that has always sat in the back of my mind while viewing this particular type of fetish.

As dominant women, how do we explain using the very attributes of ourselves ( feminine ) to humilate a sub? In essence, does such an act not make the feminine somehow lesser to the masculine, i.e. it is more humiliating to be in a skirt rather than pants, and a man in a skirt is somehow less- more like a woman? It would seem to me that we should reserve our own unique attributes of femininity to ourselves, and perhaps raise it up, where it should be, above all that is masculine if we are truly to dominate our boys. Wearing a skirt should be a reward, not a punishment or humilation, and it should make the sub feel proud nor degraded. It almost seems to me like a lot us find all that is female degrading subconsciously, a social lesson from the world around us that goes down so deep that even when we think we are acting dominant, we are still bending to the male, making ourselves in the end ( unknowingly ) submissive.

Ok, reading over what I just wrote makes me wonder if it makes sense or if I am just thinking too much this morning. But please, feel free to comment.

--Avi
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RE: feminization - 6/1/2007 5:45:13 AM   
ForLoveOfWoman


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It makes sense from a certain vantage point.

I guess I'd just challenge your idea of humiliation and suggest viewing it from another vantage point. Is it really humiliation? If it is humiliating is it due to the social sigma?

I guess the answers are subjective and likely contextual.

It is a kink that I have and I find it exhilarating and stimulating. I guess for me it is a sensual thing. Context would certainly affect the emotion for me. Admittedly I have not had much experience being feminized.

It could be that imitation is sincerest form of flattery.


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RE: feminization - 6/1/2007 5:46:09 AM   
LadyEllen


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Whilst there are some who like the feminisation thing because it makes them feel humiliated, I do feel that there is some misunderstanding of that aspect amongst women. Its about removing the penis whereby he feels strong and manly, not about insulting women or femininity. The feminisation is merely the means whereby he is castrated.

And I'm sure there must also be quite a proportion of guys into feminisation because they are ashamed about their status as males. Accessing the feminine by way of crossdressing, they enjoy a temporary elevation of status to the much higher in their minds, female; a person unaffected by and aloof from (apparently at least) the strong sexual drives that make these males feel like dirty little boys.

E

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RE: feminization - 6/1/2007 6:16:33 AM   
MstrssPassion


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There was a time when it was highly inappropriate for women to wear pants.

I'm only 40 & I actually recall some old lady telling me that I was going to burn in hell because I wore a pant suit to church when I was like 10 yrs old.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 6/1/2007 6:19:05 AM >


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RE: feminization - 6/1/2007 6:47:50 PM   
Laura


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I have zero interest in feminization for pretty much the same reasons. I take it a step farther and find it borderline insulting actually.

Somewhat off topic, I also get annoyed about the term cock sucker. My brother, his friends, most men I have heard use this term are not using it in a nice way. It's an insult. So, why are we supposed to believe it's such a great and wonderful thing to do this for men? If being a cock sucker is insulting I am not going to rush out to become one.

I feel the same way about feminization. Being a woman is something I value. I have no interest in having a man devalue that. I can find other ways to humiliate him. I get nothing from him putting on my underwear. Just annoyed.


< Message edited by Laura -- 6/1/2007 6:54:32 PM >


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RE: feminization - 6/1/2007 8:48:46 PM   
stella40


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I can see how certain aspects of feminization can appear to be insulting to women, and be very sure - because I'm a transgendered female myself - I find it just as insulting. Feminization when it comes to removing or restricting a man's masculinity is okay, but not when it involves humiliation and engenders the misogynistic view that being feminine or female is anything less than being male.

But quite often this often isn't a case - the being female is an alterego, a role, and for the transgendered male such as the transvestite and crossdresser or sissy it also provides a way of stepping outside oneself, a form of escape.

But it's when women generalise and assume that all the transgendered are one and the same that it starts also becoming insulting, especially when they assume that CD/TV/TS are all the same and NOT female. And yes, I have been accused by women who have had the temerity to accuse me of being offensive to women in general.

I'm not seeking feminization, I AM female, I'm merely seeking acceptance for who I really am. I didn't choose to be a transgendered female, I didn't choose to have my genetic defect, to be born into this male body, and I didn't choose to spend a childhood and much of my life in confusion and misery, I don't choose to be rejected, abused, or to be misunderstood.

I am a woman, just like any other, I have the same thoughts, feelings, emotions, moods, fears, insecurities. But my life has been, is and always will be a compromise. I cannot remember what it was like to experience puberty, teenage years, falling in love. All I can remember is fear, confusion, hiding, lying, not trusting people, and pretending to be who other people wanted me to be. What is it like to give birth to your own child? To be pregnant? This is impossible for me. I will never know what it's like to menstruate. I'm 40 and I still don't know what it's like to experience sexual fulfilment, to be able to masturbate and have a body which matches my soul,or even to experience intimacy or love for who I really am ... things my naturally born sisters take for granted.

I value being female just as much as any woman, in fact slightly more so in some cases because of what it is costing me - I am aware that my femininity is fragile and cannot be taken for granted. But I have also been taught something many women cannot fathom - the male perspective. Yes I can play the victim and go round feeling deprived, but everyone on this planet has been deprived of something in their lives. I'm no different. I prefer to try to be positive and look at the advantages.

I have made the only choice I could, which was to accept me for who I am and my life for what it is, to face up to my issues and confront them, and to live my life as much as possible as who I really am. I want to be loved and I want to love and I want to be loved and to love as the whole, complete and happy Stella being 100% herself and not remembered by those who know me buried in the wrong gender with the wrong name and a pathologist's verdict of suicide.

I identify myself as a lesbian... and I have a wonderful Domme across the Atlantic waiting for me who wants the complete me. But to be myself I have to go through hormone therapy and gender reassignment. But this isn't anything like the contraceptive pill or even HRT, these are powerful hormones and I run the very real risk of permanent liver damage, blood clots and death to become who I really am inside and out. I have already had one failed attempt on hormones which was suddenly stopped, I have cheated death and seen my weight balloon to over 450lbs as my body and metabolism struggled to deal with the shock of female hormones one day and male hormones returning the next.

I am now back under 300lbs, happy, settled and established in my true female gender and about to start hormone therapy again. I have been to hell and back and I have survived. I am not afraid to die and fully accept that I may not survive to complete my transition. I have got used to having to live my life within the extremely strict confines of a gender reassignment program, of having to observe a tightly controlled diet and convince sceptical and unsympathetic doctors time after time that I am female. I have to go through with this to get myself across the Atlantic to be with my Domme - the only person on this planet to ever have a relationship with me as I truly am. Believe me, it's worth it. I may never completely eradicate all signs of physical masculinity, but so what? Are there not some women with a little more than a trace of masculinity in their make up? I was never destined to be a supermodel and nothing can beat the knowledge of knowing myself and what I am about.

My life will have the happy ending that I dreamed of and wanted all along, and I won't have the loneliness and isolation that many of my transgendered sisters have to look forward to because many non-transgendered people simply refuse to overlook their prejudices.

This is my life, my story, my words and my opinion. It is but one example that feminization isn't just about wearing female panties or a skirt, but usually conceals a much deeper issue be it acceptance, escape or a mere role play. Being transgendered covers the whole range of gender and its many different permutations, including both male and female.

I'm writing this posting not to elicit sympathy but to provide a possible answer for whoever seeks it. Ignorance is not necessarily wrong or bad, it's simply another opportunity to learn, but only if you choose to take it.

< Message edited by stella40 -- 6/1/2007 9:01:39 PM >


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RE: feminization - 6/1/2007 10:40:05 PM   
LadyIce


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This kink does nothing for me, especially when men request it.
I find more men into feminization than women.

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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 2:47:00 AM   
Lashra


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My sub enjoys crossdressing NOT because he finds it humiliating, but because he finds it freeing. He is free to explore the feminine side of himself in safety with me. What LadyEllen said sums it up better than I ever could, for some men its a chance for them to shed (for awhile) their masculine side to be that which they admire most..a woman.

~Lashra


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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 3:27:51 AM   
iwearpanties


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as s submissive male whos not passabel as female nor seeks too.  I enjoy all aspects of crossdressing and when i have dressed or i am wearing females things ive never once wan'erted to put down any Mistress or Female in any way shape or fourm. each crossdress'er  / panty wearing male or tv/tg  we all have diffrent needs and wants form dressing i think we all can agree on this ?   as for my self i enjoy it for relifing stress and helping me escape the daily grind of the work world ..  as a male figuer in the business  world i use it as a way too get out of being the Dominant  postion i have daily in life .. i think more males do this then mention and i would never wnat a Mistress too think i was in any way makeing you feel shamed or embrass the Females of the world .....

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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 4:01:23 AM   
Elorin


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I think the humiliation can be for many reasons.
You are taking away their fundamental identity - and they are enjoying it (as the barometer of their penis can usually attest!)
You are showing them that the stereotypes they have held so easily are not accurate
You are inspiring feelings in them that they want to deny
You are demonstrating that women put more effort into the simple act of getting dressed than men often put into an entire (insert your act here)

I also feel that if men find it humiliating to be dressed as a woman, then feminization can be an educational process. Once they learn that being feminized should NOT be humiliating, but should be a privilege, a chance to look into a world they can only glimpse and not live, then you change the motive behind feminization sessions and make them begin to earn them.

~E

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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 8:52:12 AM   
ObedientYYC


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Feminization is not humiliating to men because of its female nature (if you look at it that way, I can see how the idea is pretty insulting).

Its humiliating because you are taking them across a major social taboo.  If you take your average guy and try to put lipstick on him,  his brain will reel due to deeply implanted social conditioning.   Boys learn from their peers at an early age that such things are very taboo.   If a Domme takes her sub across a boundary like that,  it can be thrilling and also potentially freeing as he lets go of that conditioning.  Thats my theory anyway!

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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 10:53:25 AM   
Aliya


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I've kind of started to change my way of thinking about this sort of thing.

For me as long as the tv/sissy isn't presuming to 'be a woman' by doing this then it doesn't really insult me.

So if it's just about my control over his masculinity, or his doing something uncomfortable while carrying out service, or he just really likes wearing girly things then that's not insulting to me.

If there is a presumption that wearing clothes and make up makes them a woman then I have issues with that.



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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 11:39:39 AM   
undergroundsea


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I agree that an interest in feminization is driven by individual combinations of different motivations: a mental identity (gender) that is different from the physical identity (sex), a fetish or appreciation for the female appearance, an escape of the male identity as a construct to more easily achieve Fm dynamics in spite of what roles society teaches, an alter ego, humiliation, more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ObedientYYC
Its humiliating because you are taking them across a major social taboo.


Sure, in some cases the humiliation appeal in feminization may have misogynistic roots. However, I agree with ObedientYYC and feel that in most cases the humiliation is externally and not internally driven. That is, I expect the feeling of humiliation is less because of how the said crossdresser perceives feminity but because how the rest of society perceives a man dressing in a woman's clothes.

As an example, let's imagine someone wearing a bathing suit or really rough clothes and feeling comfortable in the clothes. Now let's imagine that same person wearing the same clothes to a formal event. That person will feel some degree of humiliation. The humiliation is not because of how the person feels about the attire itself, but because of how others might perceive him in that attire. That is what I mean by humiliation that is externally driven.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 6/2/2007 11:44:35 AM >

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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 12:11:43 PM   
MistressSassy66


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Dressing up a male submissive that thinks its degrading/humiliating
has nothing to do with whether I think it is or not.
he is running on his own ideals of what society says is right and wrong.
I try to help them see its not wrong to want to dress that way.
I encourage them to be true to themselves.Whether its wearing pants or a skirt.

I have sessioned with several cross dressers who are completely happy to be wearing a dress or skirt,they dont feel humiliated in anyway.I dont do anything
or say anything negative to make them feel like they are doing something wrong.

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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 12:42:00 PM   
MsRose


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I wouldn't use feminization as a form of humiliation. From the subs that I've spoken to, whom enjoy this particular form of kink, I've heard similar rationales behind the compulsion. It gives them pleasure, it makes them feel soft. It's sometimes a de-stressor. I particulary enjoy when the man is conflicted over dressing in women's clothes. It is the agony of wanting to wear such gender-specific items (due to all the social conditioning theories mentioned above) and then fighting off the desire to wear, followed by succumbing to the desire that interests me. It is this beleagured paradox, the carousel of doubt/desire, and the constant battle with the self and self-identity, that I find most compelling and sexy about this fetish.


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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 1:41:00 PM   
plaything


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Its about the dichotomy. Yes, social masculine conditioning makes feminization a humiliation. And yet, the sub needs to submit to the feminine to experience it. If the sub is aroused by it then additional humilation comes from the perversion of his hindbrains sexual aspirations.

Really, at some very deep genetic level, we men are programmed to see ourselves like porn stars - rip off our clothes, thrust forward our hips, and fend off women wanting to have our babies. And arousal is usually the result of some hindbrain determination of the opportunity of that.

When the woman, instead, calmy dissapears your manhood into something pink, there's an expression of her interest in something other than your latent sexuality, the inner monkey wants to beat its chest and make babies.

Some guys like to prove themselves against their hardwiring by "punishing" the arousal organs, others by letting the lady disregard those the imperatives burning inside them and playing with them in a way they see - socially and deeper - as contrary to those same passions, i.e. feminization.

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RE: feminization - 6/2/2007 2:11:43 PM   
ObedientYYC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsRose

I wouldn't use feminization as a form of humiliation. From the subs that I've spoken to, whom enjoy this particular form of kink, I've heard similar rationales behind the compulsion. It gives them pleasure, it makes them feel soft. It's sometimes a de-stressor. I particulary enjoy when the man is conflicted over dressing in women's clothes. It is the agony of wanting to wear such gender-specific items (due to all the social conditioning theories mentioned above) and then fighting off the desire to wear, followed by succumbing to the desire that interests me. It is this beleagured paradox, the carousel of doubt/desire, and the constant battle with the self and self-identity, that I find most compelling and sexy about this fetish.



There is something delicious about that spot where conflict meets desire.  I've heard Dommes give similar descriptions, but for different kinky activities.


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RE: feminization - 6/3/2007 3:16:55 AM   
iwearpanties


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wow some great points here i wish more understood that guys who enjoy amd like wearing  are very willing too be at a Mistress beck and call and would do many things too keep her happy .. 

maybe the humiliations and the degrading iussues come from seeing the porn sites or videos/ dvds where cds/ tvs / tgs   are put thur domination this may be way there so much negativety for femming of males .  there are so many diffrent thigns and ways femming can be used and done ....   i would never try too replace a female ever  after all the male inside me still knows all  Women are sexy and each in there own way too.. for this submisve its a great honor too have you in the world and here at collar me

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RE: feminization - 6/3/2007 6:55:05 PM   
pixelslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra
It would seem to me that we should reserve our own unique attributes of femininity to ourselves, and perhaps raise it up, where it should be, above all that is masculine if we are truly to dominate our boys. Wearing a skirt should be a reward, not a punishment or humilation, and it should make the sub feel proud nor degraded.


I like you're attitude and your thoughts made sense to me as did those of many others who posted with differing viewpoints.  Your view somehow resonates with me as I'm not into crossdressing in it's totality and consider it a hard limit, but do appreciate a number of women's garments for the fabrics and other qualities inherent in them.  For example, I do consider it a priviledge to wear the panties that Mistress chooses for me to wear.  What exists between my legs is hers, how she wishes me to care for the genitalia that I carry with me for her, cover them, etc., is solely at her discretion.  I am happy to oblige and follow her instructions. 
 
There is room for a variety and viewpoints in this lifestyle, and if you consider wearing women's garments something your sub should earn as a priviledge, then I think that could be a positive thing to use in your relationships with submissives that further reinforces your place of dominance among them along with your position in the world as an empowered woman.
 
 - pixel

< Message edited by pixelslave -- 6/3/2007 7:03:26 PM >


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RE: feminization - 6/4/2007 6:52:20 AM   
stella40


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aliya

For me as long as the tv/sissy isn't presuming to 'be a woman' by doing this then it doesn't really insult me.



So are you saying a male to female transsexual in the early stages of their transition would be insulting you? Because they would want to be addressed as female because that is who they are inside, even if they don't yet have the physical characteristics. And if so, why would you find this insulting?

Or is it that you feel it is an affront that a TV/CD who puts on make up and women's clothing and demands to be perceived as a woman?

Please don't feel I am attacking you, or accusing you, but I'm just curious as to why you would perceive this as an insult.

Personally if a TV/CD/TS wants to be perceived as female and is living in female gender predominantly or 24/7 - irrespective of whether they wish to change their biological gender or not - I don't have an issue with this.

However I do have an issue with any of the above wishing to be perceived as female if they don't live full time in female gender but think that because they wear women's clothing and make up from time to time they have a right to be perceived as female. It annoys me when a TV tries to pass himself off as a TS e.g. on a personals site because I've seen how much damage it can do to the whole transgendered community as it can so easily turn a non-transgendered person against those who are transgendered.

However this is rare and most TG's are open and honest about why they crossdress and where they stand in the gender spectrum.

I'm just curious to know why someone would be offended by the way another person chooses to present themself.

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


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