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Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with Dommes? - 5/23/2005 12:15:10 PM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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I recently participate to a few threads in Ask A Master because they really applied to all dominants, not just the male ones.

A reoccurring theme that I noticed was a Pygmalionesque approach to dominance.

I do not approach it from this aspect. I’m more motivated by creating situations for mutual growth by overcoming challenges and building strength in character for both parties. I guess I see dominants and submissives as very much lateral in the exchange. I figure at the end of the day, I will learn as much from my submissive partner as s/he will learn from me.

I tend to go for men, and at times women, who have very strong characters combined with the desire to find themselves in a situation where they can submit to someone who has demonstrated their worthiness. Again, a very lateral exchange.

My question is the following. Do you think Dommes are often motivated by this desire to turn an ugly duckling into a swan? My initial impression would be no but I throw this question out to see if my impression is right.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

Post #: 1

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/23/2005 4:21:34 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
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Not Me. I am looking for someone that is reasonably compatible with Me from the get go. After that W/we both can make adjustments, with My preferences always being #1, of course!
Here's the real deal for Me. I want to have a comfortable relationship with My boy(s), and that extends way beyond the bedroom and even household services. I don't want a puppy dog following Me around and saying he enjoys live theater when he is really bored to tears, but thinks he is happy because he gets to spend the time with Me. Eventually it isn't going to be enough for either of U/us. If he is not going to be comfortable at a black tie event, it makes it difficult. And I definitely don't want or need anyone talking My ear off about how much fun it would be to go camping and fishing or riding on his motorcycle.
Pygmalion. Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle. Fun stories, but definitely fiction.
No, I don't want to be a "make-over Domme". And I would not be very attracted to a boy in the first place, if W/we are worlds apart on too many things. I know who I am, and I want someone who has similar tastes, education, and interests. And I am smart enough to realize that I am only so flexible.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
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Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 2

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/23/2005 5:37:49 PM

GddssBella

Posts: 343
Joined: 2/24/2004
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G'evening all:

I'm too lazy to invest that much energy. Someone that needy better keep on trucking. I want someone basically compatible from get go. Who wants clay? Too messy. Of course, some refining touches of my own will be necessary for the final masterpiece, but the boy should be a work of art on his own...

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 3

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/24/2005 4:47:40 AM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

Who wants clay? Too messy. Of course, some refining touches of my own will be necessary for the final masterpiece, but the boy should be a work of art on his own...

And I would add, willing to work on bettering himself without always being prompted by his Domme.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to GddssBella)

Post #: 4

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/24/2005 7:01:57 AM

Oumae

Posts: 911
Joined: 1/4/2005
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Yes! give me a sub with initiative anyday. Its much more satisfying for me when a sub is doing something because they want to please and have used thoughfulness to anticipate my needs and not just because I have told them too... tho' I do have to admit there are times when I enjoy them doing something just because I want it.

While I'd expect there to be some modification/getting used to each other on starting a relationship, I like to be attracted to the initial package and not just the potential.

Of the Dommes I know well I dont think pygmalionesque is a word I'd use to describe them..... maternal would sometimes crop up tho'.

Oumae

_____________________________

Is cuma le fear na mbrog ca leagann se a chos.
( The man with the boots does not mind where he places his foot)

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 5

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/24/2005 7:37:52 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
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LadyAngelika,

your post here and on the other forum have made me sad. I can't speak for all slaves so hopefully some more will add their experiences but for me the hardest times in my life were when I wasn't owned. I think an owned slave works on bettering him/herself without being prompted in part due to the simple fact of being owned. You seemed to have discounted that. I think you would be hard pressed to find a currently owned slave whose life has not been improved by their owner. I think what you call a Pygmalionesque approach to dominance might simply be an acknowledgement on the part of a dominant that they saw potential in the submissive of how they would become if the dominant owned and trained them. When through an owners guidance a slave betters themself, this makes a happer, more fulfilled slave , then that benefits the owner as well.

respectfully,

a former ugly duckling

(in reply to Oumae)

Post #: 6

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/24/2005 8:26:22 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
your post here and on the other forum have made me sad.

First and foremost kisshou, I simply stated that I was surprised when going into the Ask a Master’s section just how many Pygmalionesque type dynamics existed. As I mentioned in the forum that you are alluding to, people have had many influences in their lives that have enabled them or hindered them from becoming a well rounded individual. That someone takes on all the credit and responsibility for it is unrealistic. I believe that I have the right to express my concern over this type of behaviour.

However, that post was not the only one to influence this thread. I saw this as a reoccurring theme and it made me think that there might be a significant difference in the way that Dommes approach this dynamic. What I did in this post was take a moment to look at my reality as well as many of the Dommes that I know and I wondered if it was more a male dom/femme sub thing. And from that query came this post. There is no reason why my question and observations should make you sad. We are here to debate issues, concepts, thoughts, impressions.

You may want to investigate the source of your sadness a little further. Perhaps you projected on me a point of view that I have not expressed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
I can't speak for all slaves so hopefully some more will add their experiences but for me the hardest times in my life were when I wasn't owned. I think an owned slave works on bettering him/herself without being prompted in part due to the simple fact of being owned. You seemed to have discounted that. I think you would be hard pressed to find a currently owned slave whose life has not been improved by their owner.

I have absolutely not discounted that a person will work at bettering themselves when in a dynamic with someone. I wrote: I’m more motivated by creating situations for mutual growth by overcoming challenges and building strength in character for both parties. I guess I see dominants and submissives as very much lateral in the exchange. I figure at the end of the day, I will learn as much from my submissive partner as s/he will learn from me.

Now if that isn’t stating that I believe we can be bettered by the influence of someone, then we are not speaking the same language. What I was stating actually went one step further then what you are suggesting. I am suggesting that any Master you might have had has benefited from having you in his life. Gasp! Did you ever realise this? Or did you think that your Master was this completely selfless person who devoted his time simply for your growth and development?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
I think what you call a Pygmalionesque approach to dominance might simply be an acknowledgement on the part of a dominant that they saw potential in the submissive of how they would become if the dominant owned and trained them. When through an owners guidance a slave betters themself, this makes a happer, more fulfilled slave , then that benefits the owner as well.

Benefiting the owner is one thing. But does s/he grow from the experience? If s/he doesn't, then it's one-sided. In my opinion, a Pygmalionesque approach gives the impression of being one sided, sort of like the teaching technique of the sage on the stage. It is paternalistic… now tapping into what Oumae said, does maternalistic fall into this category?

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 7

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/24/2005 9:59:18 PM

littlespike

Posts: 80
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Austin
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Pygmalionesque approach to dominance

Hi Lady Angelika

i am afriad that i don't know much about the Dom side of our BDSM culture. Pray tell, what is "Pygmalionesque"?

respectfully
little spike

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 8

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/25/2005 9:21:50 AM

kisshou

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Joined: 2/11/2005
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I would never go so far as to think an owner was benefitted by owning me , and thus forget my place. I have been owned by both males and females and in all cases have grown tremendously.

Do owners grow from the experience? I have no idea but will eagerly read to see the replies you get. For me this is like getting a secret peek into the minds of Dommes and Dominants. Plus hopefully reading the replies will give me insight and help make me a better slave.

What was making me sad was thinking you excluded owning people if they seemed to have problems. I have experienced time and time again what seems like a huge , insurmountable problem to me (with my slave mindset),that a dominant can solve very easily. I thought dominants looked for potential.

What is also confusing me is how it can be one sided if it is an exchange? Or do you mean , it is an exchange but not an equal exchange?

If I have projected a point of view that you have not expressed, I apologize, I was replying how what you wrote made me feel.

Sincerely,
kiss

(in reply to littlespike)

Post #: 9

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/25/2005 9:31:26 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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It all feeds into the "doms are stronger/smarter/better/protector/maker/ of this poor needy/unsure/insecure/not as strong (but not a doormat!!!!)/directionless sub" dynamic.

It's all over the place.

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 10

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/25/2005 11:04:49 AM

SweetDommes

Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

I would never go so far as to think an owner was benefitted by owning me , and thus forget my place. I have been owned by both males and females and in all cases have grown tremendously.

Do owners grow from the experience? I have no idea but will eagerly read to see the replies you get. For me this is like getting a secret peek into the minds of Dommes and Dominants. Plus hopefully reading the replies will give me insight and help make me a better slave.

What was making me sad was thinking you excluded owning people if they seemed to have problems. I have experienced time and time again what seems like a huge , insurmountable problem to me (with my slave mindset),that a dominant can solve very easily. I thought dominants looked for potential.

What is also confusing me is how it can be one sided if it is an exchange? Or do you mean , it is an exchange but not an equal exchange?

If I have projected a point of view that you have not expressed, I apologize, I was replying how what you wrote made me feel.

Sincerely,
kiss

Honestly, this is one of the many reasons that I do not like the term "slave" nor do we seek to own any. Every human affects the lives of others when they interact, it can be detrimental or benificial. In a lasting, healthy realtionship, both parties should be benifited in some way. It isn't 'forgetting one's place' to know this. It is being honest and realistic about the interactions between two people.

I feel that I have grown a lot from our interactions with various boys - you can't help but do so as a healthy person. If you do not grow, then you stagnate and no one wants to hang out with someone like that.

I did not at all get that she was excluding anyone with problems - simply that she does not look for someone that she percieves as having a ton of problems that she must "rescue" and "fix" which is what a lot of the "Pygmalionesque approach" seems to be. It seems that those who have this mindset feel that they have to find the "troubled souls" to own and "repair" ... and honestly, it sickens me that people think that they are so great that they have all the answers for someone. No one ever has all the answers for anyone, and to think otherwise is incredibly conceited of the Dominants in question. Our various potentials have had various problems, and as long as the problems did not interfere with their ability to make a commitment to us we didn't care - but we did not seek them out to try and fix their problems. Some problems are not fixable by anything but time and caring, and again, to think otherwise, to think that I/you/they/whoever can fix something quickly (relatively, of course) is just absolutely conceited.

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 11

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/25/2005 11:10:00 AM

kisshou

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Emerald,

exactly. That is why we enter into an Ultimate Authority Transfer with them.

kiss

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 12

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/25/2005 11:13:08 AM

SweetDommes

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I believe you will find that Emerald was referring to that mindset in a negative manner (unless I have misread all of her previous posts as well as this one).

You have value, just like every other person on the planet (well, with a few exceptions, but serial killers don't count right now), and perhaps the intentions of the Males to show you that worth are admirable, but most of them are just trying to boost their own ego and if it happens to help yours, then great, but if not, oh well ... he'll find someone new eventually anyway.

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 13

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/25/2005 11:58:28 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

I believe you will find that Emerald was referring to that mindset in a negative manner (unless I have misread all of her previous posts as well as this one).

Pretty much. I don't know if Kisshou meant to just be cute and cross-posting or not, but I did mean it in a bad way.

And it's certainly not why I engage in a UAT with the Owner.

(in reply to SweetDommes)

Post #: 14

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/27/2005 5:13:25 AM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlespike

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Pygmalionesque approach to dominance

Hi Lady Angelika

i am afriad that i don't know much about the Dom side of our BDSM culture. Pray tell, what is "Pygmalionesque"?

respectfully
little spike

pyg·ma·lion·ism (pg-mly-nzm, -ml--)
n.

The state of being in love with an object of one's own creation.

You might want to google pygmalionesque for some excellent articles describing the dynamics more in detail.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to littlespike)

Post #: 15

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/27/2005 5:18:59 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
I did not at all get that she was excluding anyone with problems - simply that she does not look for someone that she percieves as having a ton of problems that she must "rescue" and "fix" which is what a lot of the "Pygmalionesque approach" seems to be.

Exactly. I will not be anyone's saviour. It is a hard limit for me :)

However, working hand in hand to overcome life's challenges together, that I find a very comforting and wonderful prospect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
It seems that those who have this mindset feel that they have to find the "troubled souls" to own and "repair" ... and honestly, it sickens me that people think that they are so great that they have all the answers for someone. No one ever has all the answers for anyone, and to think otherwise is incredibly conceited of the Dominants in question.

To think of one's self as almighty and having all the answers is a great sign of insecurity, that is insecurity to let anyone else contribute for fear that they will be outshined.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to SweetDommes)

Post #: 16

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/27/2005 5:52:56 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

I would never go so far as to think an owner was benefitted by owning me , and thus forget my place. I have been owned by both males and females and in all cases have grown tremendously.

For me if I didn't feel my being owned and useful in his life was benefitting him, I'd be absolutely lost. It is my whole purpose in being owned by him.

Now, I don't allow knowing that I benefit his life to at all intefere with the realities that I'm replacable and possibly even simply rejectable.

The two can co-exist for me.

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 17

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/27/2005 6:07:43 AM

kisshou

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Joined: 2/11/2005
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Emerald ,
That is what I was trying to say. I probably should have used the word state instead of think.

Do you see a pygmalionesque approach as different than a Daddy or Mommy dom?
If people enter into that kind of relationship and they are happy , not hurting anyone else and their needs are being fulfilled. Then I don't see why you are veiwing it in a negative light.

A subtle but reoccuring thread in all the forums and posts I see , is what I call the embracing of 'realism' vs the death of romanticism. I guess that is a topic for a different post...

some food for thought

kiss

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 18

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/27/2005 6:22:29 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
Do you see a pygmalionesque approach as different than a Daddy or Mommy dom?

Yes I do see them as different, while there may be some similarities. I think the intentions and the reasonings for what they do are very different.

quote:

A subtle but reoccuring thread in all the forums and posts I see , is what I call the embracing of 'realism' vs the death of romanticism. I guess that is a topic for a different post...

some food for thought

kiss

I don't think romanticism should die, but I don't think it should cloud the realities either. Because it most often does, and that's when people become disappointed and disillusioned.

(in reply to kisshou)

Post #: 19

RE: Pygmalionesque approach - does it occur much with D... - 5/27/2005 11:28:25 AM

SweetDommes

Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
Do you see a pygmalionesque approach as different than a Daddy or Mommy dom?

Yes I do see them as different, while there may be some similarities. I think the intentions and the reasonings for what they do are very different.

quote:

A subtle but reoccuring thread in all the forums and posts I see , is what I call the embracing of 'realism' vs the death of romanticism. I guess that is a topic for a different post...

some food for thought

kiss

I don't think romanticism should die, but I don't think it should cloud the realities either. Because it most often does, and that's when people become disappointed and disillusioned.

A Daddy/Mommy Dom is role playing - the pygmalion thing is not. That is the difference that I see. Now, don't get me wrong, Daddy/Mommy roleplayers take it very seriously, it is not a game and I don't mean to imply that it is - but it is not the same mindset as the person who approaches this from the pygmalion-mindset.

As for romanticism - yeah, what Emerald said.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 20

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