RE: leaving the Union

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: leaving the Union

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: leaving the Union

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 4:35:01 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kurzon

honestly I could write a book on reasons to secede and another on reasons not to - there were many reasons and many parallel the Revolutionary War ( taxes being first among them)

No doubt, but I still think slavery was the issue that drove everyone to the breaking point.

It wasnt the main issue. The main issue was over taxes. And yes, wars have stated over money many times. The whole American Revolution was started because of taxes. Sure a lot of other things like "liberty" were tacked on... but it started with taxes. Boston Tea Party was a protest against the tea and stamp tax when England gave the East India Company a monopoly over the colonies.

If England wouldn't have overtaxed the colonists and gave fair representation, the American revolution would never have occured. Just like if the federal government didn't try to force the south to pay higher taxes, the civil war would never have happened.

Yes, Americans will kill and fight over taxes. That issue is truely that important.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 41

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 4:37:37 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kurzon

could it be that you think that because you were taught that in school - and they use books aproved by (written by) the victors of the war?

Possibly, though I've also read a fair amount of history on my own and have been struck by how often slavery has been front and center: Missouri Compromise, Nebraska-Kansas Act, Compromise of 1850, Fugitive Slave Act. I also think it's striking that it was Lincoln's election (and the perception that he was more of an abolitionist than he was) that spurred the actual secessions.

There's also the fact that there were myriad disagreements about taxes, economic differences, etc. both before and after the Civil War, and they didn't drive anyone to secede.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Kurzon)

Post #: 42

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 4:37:49 PM

KMsAngel

Posts: 17415
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline

hmmmm wanders in from totally different link and sees 'southern comfort' in the above sentence. thanks domiguy (sluuuuurp, burp)

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 43

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 4:40:40 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

It wasnt the main issue.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 44

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 4:48:19 PM

CrookedStaff

Posts: 8
Joined: 5/18/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

[Are you trying to say that Cali, Texas, Florida AND New York are NOT seperate countries?? I thought we all succeeded years ago. I've been out of school for too long. lol Heck, aroudn here, most of us think that Los Angelos IS a seperate country at times.

Note, this is from a woman of Fresno. As a former resident of Orange County (wait, I did live in West LA once....) , I can tell you the people of LA/OC sort of know about Sacramento, if pushed could believe that SF exists, but wouldn't be able to find Fresno on a map even if the town was labeled in bold. At least 99% have never been there. (I have. A friend of my mother's lived there. Discussion when we visited centered on prunes and raisins, if I remember correctly.)

The arrogance of rose here is nothing compared to LA. I was told by residents of Oakland-Concord that there was a huge brush fire in that region while I lived in OC, but we barely heard of it in the news. Yet, everyone everywhere knows about the fires and mudslides in Malibu and Laguna. Just amazing.

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 45

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 4:59:00 PM

Trampler

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/31/2006
Status: offline

I read somewhere that alot of people (alot of women.) joined the anti-slavery movement because it was easier then joining the sufferage movement. Of course I could have the wrong

(in reply to CrookedStaff)

Post #: 46

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 5:09:01 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

Lincoln wrote the Emancipation Proclaimation two years into the active Civil War, when France and England refused to support his war against the seccessionist states unless he outlawed slavery.

The Emancipation Proclaimation frees all slaves in the States actively rebelling from the Union.

I dont know about you, but I have a hard time believing that the US Civil War had much (or anything) to do
with slavery, apart from the fact that the southern economy relied on slavery to survive and making it go away
would do to the South what the Protestants from Britain did to Catholic Ireland earlier last century.

While I can understand the water connection in terms of California splitting off from the United States, I need to point out that a lot of that water is used to grow food for the other 49 states.

We will do just fine feeding our own population, as well as most of Asia, all by ourselves.

Sinergy

p.s. On a related note, stopping the commerce going through California via the ports and rails will cause the other 49 states to invade California to put down an attempt to split off from the union in a few nanoseconds. When PMA closed the west coast harbors for 10 days in 2002, the COST to the entire US economy was approximately $56,000,000,000. It is a nice idea, but the odds of it happening escape detection by modern scientific methods.

p.p.s. In other words, the rest of you need us a lot more than we need the rest of you.

edited to explain why Britain and France refused to support the war and changing "this" to "last"

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 6/4/2007 5:10:37 PM >

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Trampler)

Post #: 47

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 5:22:24 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

I think President Lincoln summed up the whole war when he made this statement on August 22, 1862....
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing
more will help the cause."

As for Vermont wanting to leave the Union.....
Congress and the President have an approval rating of around 30%. More than 2/3rds of the country thinks the nation is on the wrong path. And our Congress don't give a damn what the voters want. Estimates out today show that on our current path the federal budget deficit will balloon to $14 billion within only 10 years. That is without the $2.5 trillon dollar Compehensive Immigration Reform bill that Congress is determined from hell to high water to shove through and down the throats of the people. And it doesn't include the $4 trillion dollar universal healthcare plan being proposed by some Democrats.

Our federal government is INSANE! How can you possibly blame any state for wanting out? We are driving ourselves to the brink of bankruptcy.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 48

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 5:27:27 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

think President Lincoln summed up the whole war when he made this statement on August 22, 1862.... "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause."

I don't doubt Honest Abe's sincerity, but his statement doesn't address the question of why the southern states seceded in the first place.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 49

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 5:34:50 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Because they wanted to?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 50

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 5:35:32 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Because they wanted to?

Because they wanted to protect slavery.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 51

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 5:40:45 PM

seeksfemslave

Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline

Re the US civil war I always thought it was about the wealth generated by the cotton trade.
Today many millions of Tax dollars are channeled into the cotton producing states.

This in a nation that makes a God of free enterprise. he he he he he he he
A little bit of hi pok racee cleanses the soul lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 6/4/2007 5:43:11 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 52

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 5:50:43 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

i find the thought of any state succeeding as disturbing.

ild like to see Canada join us.....

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 53

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 6:17:45 PM

petdave

Posts: 2479
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynae78

wasn't there a group in South Carolina that wanted to seperate from the Union?

Only for a couple hundred years

It would be pretty interesting if Vermot did secede, but it's no more than a pipe dream. Speaking of which, how long do you think it would be before they developed a wholly marijuana-based economy?

(in reply to Lynae78)

Post #: 54

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 6:21:43 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Those of you who would care to read the work of real historians might be interested in this review:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19994

Lincoln's strategy from long before the Civil War was to destroy slavery.

Of course, for anyone who doesn't agree, it's all just propaganda.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

think President Lincoln summed up the whole war when he made this statement on August 22, 1862.... "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause."

I don't doubt Honest Abe's sincerity, but his statement doesn't address the question of why the southern states seceded in the first place.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 55

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 6:29:50 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

how long do you think it would be before they developed a wholly marijuana-based economy?

Aren't you forgetting Ben and Jerry's?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to petdave)

Post #: 56

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 6:37:09 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

In fact, most Texans think Texas is its own country.

Nah, we just act like it is.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to cyberdude611)

Post #: 57

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 6:45:59 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Because they wanted to?

Because they wanted to protect slavery.

Tangentially.

The South wanted to protect their economic base, which involved slavery. Taking slaves away from the south would have the same effect on them as Walmart being forced to pay a living wage and benefits to their employees would have on Walmart.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 58

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 7:43:28 PM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline

The 10th amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people.

There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits a state from leaving the Union. I’m not in favor of it – I think we’re better off together than apart – but I honestly can’t see any legal impediment to a state leaving if it really want’s to.

farglebargle said:

quote:

Worked out great.

For the fucking Hamiltonian Traitors, that is.

In the spring of 1861, the United States ceased to exist, Lincoln appointed "Congressional Representatives' from the secceded states ( Against the Constitution, proving it was no longer valid ) and we've been living under The President's Military Dictatorship ever since.

If that's not the case, explain all the extra-constitutional authority assumed by The President?

Sad... but true. After the Civil War (which technically wasn’t a civil war) the states were states in name only. From that time on, they have really been little more than provinces.

pahunkboy said:

quote:

A perplexing idea- considered 4 counties here considered leaving the commenwealth of PA. At issue was a hazzardous waste dump- to be cited here.

There are many here in New York who would love to see New York City broken off from the rest of the state. New York city has a lock on state politics and the rest of us are tired of being their vassals. Never happen, of course.

cyberdude611 said:

quote:

I think we may have a civil war within the next 20 years anyway...

I too think we are headed down that path. The danger I see is the increasing polarization between left and right. Each is becoming more and more strident in their ideology. That kind of anger can’t be sustained long before the shooting starts.

Lordandmaster said:

quote:

That's right, we all would have been a whole lot better off if people had just left the poor states alone and allowed slavery to continue. We would have avoided the Civil War!

One doesn’t have to be in support of slavery to recognize the fact that the North acted illegally in forcing the southern states to stay in the Union. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad the country stayed united and I’m glad slavery was (on paper at least) ended but the country paid a heavy price as the Federal government continued to assume more and more power until it became the behemoth it is today.

cyberdude611 said:

quote:

The Civil War was about taxes and state rights, not slavery. Slavery was the moral justification used by the Union.

As much as I agree with you on your previous post I must respectfully disagree with you here. Yes, the civil war was about more than slavery but you cannot dismiss slavery completely out of hand. People were passionate about the issue, passionate enough to kill (Bleeding Kansas). True the Union government used it as a propaganda issue (the Emancipation Proclamation is a masterpiece of political propaganda) but a great many in the north wanted the war prosecuted because they hated slavery so much.

seekfemslave said:

quote:

As a mere Brit I advise you to stay together , pay your taxes and kick everybody elses arse.
If you dont I will.

Ya but every time we start kicking everybody else ass, people start bitching.

cyberdude 611 said:

quote:

Yes, Americans will kill and fight over taxes.

No. Americans used to fight and kill over taxes. Now days we feebly roll over while our taxes creep ever upward. And don’t you dare complain about it – you’ll be called greedy and accused of not wanting to pay your fair share (your fair share to be decided by someone else of course).

Sinergy said:

quote:

p.s. On a related note, stopping the commerce going through California via the ports and rails will cause the other 49 states to invade California to put down an attempt to split off from the union in a few nanoseconds.

It is so refreshing to find someone on these boards who understands the true nature of power and self interest.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 59

RE: leaving the Union - 6/4/2007 7:48:36 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Sinergy said:

quote:

p.s. On a related note, stopping the commerce going through California via the ports and rails will cause the other 49 states to invade California to put down an attempt to split off from the union in a few nanoseconds.

It is so refreshing to find someone on these boards who understands the true nature of power and self interest.

I am a bleeding heart, save the whales, pro-Woman, pro-Human, tree hugging pacifist.

I am, however, a pragmatic realist who understands which side my bread is buttered on.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 60

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: leaving the Union

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.109