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It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 3:03:09 PM   
Suleiman


Posts: 1127
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		Horrified, Master Torm looks at his new concubine and levels an accusing finger at her. "You've been lying to me" he growls. "You're not really a pleasure-slave, you're just an accountant from Detroit!"

Okay, I've just read comments on a bunch of different threads that made me want to reiterate the same point over and over again. I keep saying this (and folks keep vehemently disagreeing with me) but, rather than repeat myself until I'm blue in the nail-bed, I'm going to put it all down here.

It's all just roleplaying folks. Whether online or in real life, in the bedroom or full-time, closeted or lifestyle, old-guard, new guard, even with whiped cream and sprinkles, it's all just roleplaying a fantasy scenario.

This is not a bad thing. Believe me, I love fantasy. I'm the kind of guy Walter Mitty thinks is kind of a space cadet. I love living out my fantasies. It gives me a reason to get out of bed in the morning. It's saved my marriage more than a dozen times in the last decade. Fantasy is great. fantasy is wonderful.

Fantasy is also a veneer. a pretty package surrounding something more. People keep getting caught up in a "right way" and a "wrong way", "true love" "true submission" "true dominance" - true bullflop.

When you role-play, by definition, you take up a role that you want to play. My wife and I have several established roles, despite being both very switchy in nature. Very often, she takes up the role of breadwinner. I take up the role of homemaker. This is not a question of submission and dominance so much as inclination and ability. Unless I'm scrambling at odd jobs to help pay the rent, I prefer to work at home, focusing on my writing and similar sorts of work. She prefers to go out and pursue a career. I like to cook, and I don't mind cleaning. She couldn't scramble eggs until I showed her how to a couple of years ago. When we got married, she had no idea what to do in the kitchen other than take out the garbage and fix the garbage disposal.

By and large, we play our roles, both out of inclination and because it's what we have agreed to do. When she comes home from work, I fix her a drink and put dinner on the table. When guests come over, I prepare a little something for people to eat while she sits in the living room and plays the role of host. We are not our roles however. We have taken up these roles because they work for us and help to keep the household running smoothly. Even so, we are not the roles we play.

I have commented frequently on this perspective of mine. A slave is not REALLY a slave. They are a person who has chosen to play the role of a slave. This means, to those gits who take umbrage at a submissive addressing them as an equal, that yes, they are in fact your equals, until such a time as they CHOOSE to relinquish that status with regard to you. This also means that at any point, the slave may decide to reassert their equality. M/s is a relationship. That means you have to relate. The role of master and the role of slave are, for all intents and purposes, meaningless. They are just roles. I have seen too many relationships fall apart because one or both parties mistake the role for the person, and the fantasy for the role. Isn't the old rallying cry of the divorcee "You're not the man I married"? The man is not the role, the role is not the fantasy, and once the honeymon ends, the veneer begins to peel. The same is painfully true for D/s. A person comes into the world of kink with a fantasy in their head. They rummage around for volunteers to help make that fantasy a reality. Everyone takes up certain roles, often facilitated by bits of costuming like collars, and (hopefully) a good time is had by all. Too many people become so fixated on the fantasy in their head, trying to make that fantasy happen just exactly so, and they wind up even more miserable than before. Why? The fantasy is not the role, the role is not the person.

Look, folks - in the end, it's all just my opinion, but for the love of mike, try and show a little common sense. Treat your partner as a partner. Talk to them. Pay attention to their wants, their needs, their interests. In the long run, it helps to reinforce the role, because there's something more to your relationship than just a crumbling facade. Your Dominant is not the towering monolith of strength they'd like you to believe them to be. Your Submissive is not the whimpering doormat they pretent to be. Your kinky fucktoy occasionally just wants to snuggle. Just try and act like human beings for a while, okay? I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 3:09:05 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		nice rant

(in reply to Suleiman)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 3:14:39 PM   
KMsAngel


Posts: 17415
Joined: 4/13/2007
Status: offline 		this is the sort of stuff i like to read to make a well-rounded education. thank you. not often espoused here....

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RE: It's all just role-playing (a rant) - 6/4/2007 3:17:27 PM   
JerryInTampa


Posts: 138
Joined: 2/19/2004
Status: offline 		I do so hate it when a good rant ends up with poor support:

"They are a person who has chosen to play the role of a spouse. This means, to those gits who take umbrage at a spouse having sex with someone else, that yes, they are in fact able to have sex with someone else, until such a time as they CHOOSE to relinquish doing so."

There's role-playing and then there's role-playing. Certainly concepts like "consenting non-consent" exist to create an illusion of (for example) lack of control. But while my partners and I may indeed create such illusions of lack of ability, the willful commitment to submit is no less (or more) real than the willful commitment to monogamy, or to being a friend, or to parenting a child. Let's not equivocate pretending a role (helpless victim) with taking on a role (sub, master, event coordinator, whatever).

I think you've take a perfectly legitimate distaste for much of the pomp and pretentiousness of so many who have no business thinking they are grown up, and created a rant that goes to far and implies that D/s relationships are somehow less "real" than any other aspect of interpersonal exitance... though part of your post seems to recognize my counter rant (playing host).

Jerry

< Message edited by JerryInTampa -- 6/4/2007 3:19:59 PM >

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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 3:18:17 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Nice rant overall, what a rant should be really.

But I'm not sure why the insistence that it's role play?  Vanillas don't role play when they work together to decide who will be incharge of what or share authority.  And masters and slaves don't role play when they decide one will have authority and the other won't.

Role play is great fun, hot, delicious and more- but that doesn't mean who we are in a relationship is role play.

It's one of the great top ten debates in ds though :)

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KMsAngel)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 3:18:35 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I can just see it now.  Shall I pass you the fire blanket now, Suleiman?
 
I don't disagree with you at all, because everything in life is roleplaying.  Every role we take on is just that, a role.  Whether it is as a wife, or a slave... an artist or an accountant.  Even being a man and a woman are roles.
 
And roles are our lives.  The whole world is the stage and the life we live through and the lives we encounter, are a part of the play.  We just write our own scripts and mostly, we improvise... and on occasion we have guest writers who come in and add their little stories and sidelines.
 
My only statement is that don't for a moment think that anything outside wiitwd is any different... it is all just another story within the story... and I am damn sure mine is going to be a classic - (or cult B-movie) - and not a crass soap opera.


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 3:46:20 PM   
salilus


Posts: 201
Joined: 5/18/2007
Status: offline 		For some people, it certainly is just roleplaying.

(in reply to Suleiman)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 3:50:25 PM   
RaynaSub


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		I do agree with you darkinshadows.
I was thinking the same thoughts, every role we take on is just that a role.
Roles are our lives.
BDSM relationships are roles, and with these roles do come expectations.
If you are in a BDSM lifestyle relationship you have normally agreed to live your
life in that context.
If not, why would you enter into a BDSM longterm lifestyle relationship?
If you do not want to live in a particular role, you should limit your self to playing
and play partners only. 

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 4:04:22 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Personally, from a sociological perspective i would say your use of the word role is not necessarily one that i would use. It is true that people specific social scripts based on the situation, and as you pointed out this is true in all aspects, but i would use the word identites. You can have many differant identites and it is managing them that can be problematic, someone can define themselves as a parent, daughter, lawyer, homesexual etc etc, and the problem is that modern society is increasingly fragmented. identity is becoming more and more important and we are all very intent on defining everything, who we are and what we want. The thing is acting these identities are not necessarily conscious, i think in the case of BDSM it would be safe to suggest that it is far more so. This is especially true because of its 'deviant natures' and being on the edge of society in terms of peoples attitudes to it. No matter how liberated we are general consensus will inform the way we behave. But i agree that this is in no way a bad thing, i think the problem does come when people obbsess about who is real and who is fake, based on how 'in' the lifestyle they are, which is rather odd because thatsa  subjective judgement so how can annyone really make that assessment. I think it would be far more harmonious to just accept it as it is rateher than the need to proove its worthiness, but that wont happen. 

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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 4:25:05 PM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Yes we play roles in life. The problem is that in vanilla life we rarely negotiate them.
That's why there is so much conflict because people are placed in roles by other people that we have not agreed to.
What should be so good about D/s is that we negotiate the roles that we play.
Negotiating a period of 'play' is difficult enough but to negotiate a long term relationship before you enter into it is impossible. So someone has to be the dominant force in that relationship. In vanilla life it is still reasonably accepted that it is the man who is the dominant force in a romantic relationship. Most men think it is not acceptable for the woman to take control. As a dominant woman I have always taken control but have had to use very subtle methods to do so. As a Domme I do not expect to have to be subtle about it. But time and time again my natural authority is ignored because male subs are often only pretending to be submissive to get what they want. Whereas women in general are taught to be submissive by vanilla life therefore to take them into D/s is the easiest job in the world for a dominant man.He often doesn't need to negotiate. But thankyou Suleiman for actually caring. Most men of my aquaintance don't. It makes me very very angry.

(in reply to RaynaSub)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 4:45:01 PM   
ADom442


Posts: 34
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Suleiman wrote:

Horrified, Master Torm looks at his new concubine and levels an accusing finger at her. "You've been lying to me" he growls. "You're not really a pleasure-slave, you're just an accountant from Detroit!"
...
It's all just roleplaying folks. ...  it's all just roleplaying a fantasy scenario.

... I love fantasy. I'm the kind of guy ... Fantasy is also a veneer. a pretty package surrounding something more.

... Treat your partner as a partner. Talk to them. Pay attention to their wants, their needs, their interests. In the long run, it helps to reinforce the role, because there's something more to your relationship than just a crumbling facade. Your Dominant is not the towering monolith of strength they'd like you to believe them to be. Your Submissive is not the whimpering doormat they pretent to be. Your kinky fucktoy occasionally just wants to snuggle. Just try and act like human beings for a while, okay?

Suleiman, I apologize for editing your post (rant) so much, but I want to respond to the parts I've quoted.  Before I do, though, thank you for the opening!!!  I LOVED the image of Master Torm being shocked that his pleasure slave was really just an accountant from Detroit!

Now for my response:  I often quote, "The goal of every human being is to be that self who they truly are."  I think that some people really do want an exchange of authority in their relationships, and that for some it's not just role playing - They're being true to who they are. 

Several members of my family from the previous generation had a pronounced exchange of authority in their marriages and they were happily married for 20, 30, or 40 years until death ended the relationship.  Now, they didn't use the same nomenclature that you'll find here.  No one was "Master"; no one identified with BDSM.  Instead, in the cases I'm thinking of, the man was "the head of the home". 

There are also people who really enjoy being kinky.  For some, it's a part of themselves that they've come to own and celebrate.  I remember starting many mornings with my former partner saying, "We have to get out of bed and start our day, so roll over so I can slap your ass to start the day off on a good note."

I agree VERY much with what you say in your last paragraph.  D/s or M/s doesn't mean that you can't cuddle, and most definitely does not mean that either party should try to suppress who they are or that they should care any less about the integrated person who is their partner.  Still, I do think there are people for whom the kinkiness and exchange of authority is not just role playing - For some, they are being that self who they truly are in their relationships. 

_____________________________

It is the business of the very few to be independent; it is a privilege of the strong. And whoever attempts it ... proves that he is probably not only strong, but also daring beyond measure.
- Nietzsche

(in reply to Suleiman)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 4:47:58 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I never liked Mike....I always thought he was a total cocksucker...I have no need for his love.

_____________________________



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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 4:52:09 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Nice rant. Feel better?

But I agree with the others. I have many different aspects to my personality. I don't play the role of being a parent, I am one even when I'm tied up and squealing. It just means that at some moments I have to perform parenting duties, at some moments I perform laundry duties, at some moments I participate in sex and at certain moments I participate in miniature golf. None of these cancels the others out, they each get the appropriate time and attention they deserve.

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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 6:03:45 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		I guess it's all a matter of how you define "role".  I don't feel that Hubby and i play roles in our lifestyle, and i don't feel i play the role of a female, parent, wife or golfer (some may argue with that one), it's what i am. However, if we were to do a medical scene where He was the doctor and i was the patient, then i would call that a "role". I do believe there are those in BDSM who do play roles to fulfill their kinks because it isn't their lifestyle, and there is nothing wrong with that. JMHO

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to Suleiman)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 6:20:41 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub

I guess it's all a matter of how you define "role". 

I think that is the key issue, what you consider to be a role, you could say everything in life is a role or you could say its part of who you are. Though arguably nothing is organic, behaviours are learned.

(in reply to proudsub)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 6:31:39 PM   
This1s4you


Posts: 8
Joined: 5/23/2007
Status: offline 		duh

< Message edited by This1s4you -- 6/4/2007 6:32:32 PM >

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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 6:48:22 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline 		What if we took the word "role" and changed it to the word "hat"?  Would that make everyone happier?  I see them as the same thing.  When we are told day to day "oh you wear so many hats, Donna...you are a mother, a wife, a student, a nurse...."  we are flattered that someone notices all those things in life that we are.  It's NICE to be recognized.  I don't see the OP's rant as anything different. 

Maybe the word "playing" at the end of the word "role" is the problem.  When we hear that word it brings up *at least for me* connotations of a bunch of geeky RPGers sitting around a table until three a.m. rolling D20s for initiative and D8s for damage.   I can see the DM now....."ok Donna....you just walked in and see two people...one is in a leather cat suit and yielding a whip the other is naked, bound to a table and crying....what do you do"?  I say "Don't forget I readied my long bow before I entered, I don't draw back yet; I use my perception ability to see if I think he likes it or is doing this against his will".  "Ok", the DM says, "Roll perception check"  ***can you tell I'm one of the geeks?***
 
I do have a roll with Robert as I have a roll for my UMs my husband, various family members, etc, etc, etc.  Don't like the word roll?  Pick another.  We all love labels here *S*.  Is this a game?  Is this play for me? No, it's my life.  I LOVE my life.  I love who I am to Robert, to my UMs to my husband, etc. etc. etc.  But I fall into a roll or wear a different hat every day that I wake up alive.  We all do.



_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 7:26:35 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		OMG your post is absolutely inspiring, I mean finally a person that knows exactly what is happening in everyones relationship.  You must have the powers of a God to know precisely what everyone elses relationships are, above what they know them to be!

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.

C~

Note: This was all sarcasm, what I don't understand is why people care so much what everyones relationship is and proving or disproving what their relationships are.  I suspect there is a relationship with getting laid and giving a fuck about everyone else.


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to Suleiman)
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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 7:41:44 PM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		Suleiman, thank you for that!

I agree with you 150%.

role (noun)
1. a part or character played by an actor or actress.
2. proper or customary function: the teacher's role in society.
3. Sociology. the rights, obligations, and expected behavior patterns associated with a particular social status.

A role can therefore be qualified by such verbs as play, perform, fulfil, assume, adopt, acquire, etc.

To me it's very clear from the above dictionary definition that a role in BDSM matches the first definition, a biological role is defined in the second and that of a spouse or marital partner can be ascribed to the third.

Having read extensively Freud, Jung, Eric Berne and others I am happy to be in complete agreement with what Suleiman posted.


_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


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RE: It's all just roleplaying (a rant) - 6/4/2007 7:52:34 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		It may be that you are having to repeat yourself so often because you're wrong--because what you are saying, unresonant, falls on deaf ears.

For many of us, our psycho-sexual identity is not "just rolelaying," but is an authentic representation of who we are--our psycho-sexual identity is real.  The description of our identity as "just role-playing," both in denotation and connotation, rejects our self-identification as authentic.

No doubt there is a sense in which social identity can be looked at as least in part being role-dependent: words like Freshman, Colts Fan, Colonel, American, etc, reflect an exterior contextualization.  Personal identity may be seen in a way where several (possibly chosen) schema work together to form a self.

This is very different than saying that your psycho-sexual identification is "just roleplaying."  I may put on my Father hat, my Teacher Hat, my Friend Hat, and yet at the same time, I authentically am a father, a teacher, a friend, and so on.

Role-play is a relatively new word (Random House Unabridged puts it as a 1950's word) that specifically refers to consciously trying on someone else's place or discourse so as to gain insight or empathy.  In marriage counselling, a husband and wife roleplaying each other is an example of this: each pretends to be the others for a short period of time.  The word has acreted other denotations over time; when I play D&D I roleplay my character, pretending to be a different person in a different universe for the pleasure of that organized make-believe.  When I was a rookie investment advisor for EDJ, I roleplayed situation after situation on video tape, pretending to meet prospective clients and then reveiwing my performance on tape later--we even had mock-up doors, pretend kitchen counters, fake farm porches and lunch counters for our roleplay sessions.

What all of these denotations of the word have in common is the idea of temporarily assuming a persona and pretending for a time to be what you are not: the other gender, a half-elven ranger, a series 7 licensed broker.

I do engage in roleplay in my relationships.  If I have my little girl put up her hair in pigtails, put on a baby-t, white cotton panties and ankle socks, and be my little slut daughter, we are roleplaying.  I'm not her biological father, she isn't my bio daughter, and isn't 17.  We are pretending, and what fun it is.

But my psycho-sexual identity isn't pretend.  I really am heterosexual, I really am a sadist, I really do need to be in control to connect emotionally, and I really am a Daddy in relation to my girl.  You have every right to your opinion, and maybe for you it's true.  If you tell me this is all just roleplaying for you, if you just like to pretend once in a while, assume a persona and then take it off, fucking A.

You are ass-wrong however in telling everyone that their self-identification is wrong, and they are just roleplaying.  You don't know a fucking thing about the subject, and so your rant sucks.  If you edited to say "I'm Just a Role-Player Who Likes to Pretend" it would be great.  But because you incorrectly (and asininely) ascribe your framework to other people, it is teh suck rant.

You now know why people think your assertion is stupid, and don't listen to you.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to earthycouple)
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