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outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 5:11:33 AM   
aviinterra


Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		Thinking of the thread on Vermont leaving the Union, a simple thought came to a few girls and myself. Is the system of a republic still needed? Way back in the old days, there was little or basically no possibility for every citizen to vote on each  major change/issue in the govt. But with today's technology, would it not be easier to give all U.S. citizens a guaranteed weekend off each month ( or something like that ) to read over the most important issues and then to click their mouse and vote? Of course, there are problems with this, but it is just an initial thought. Perhaps all of us would have more free time when taxes would be better allocated, and the public would then be much better informed and educated, aware of the finally simplified law codex. And of course, a major problem with such an idea is that it would make our corrupt politicians less needed and less powerful. I am sure they would not be thrilled about that. :) How would the country have voted for Iraq? How would they vote for the current Immigration bill? No one would be able to blame a Rep or Senator for their own stupidity when shit goes wrong. Are we ready to test out a real democracy? 
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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 6:18:35 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

Thinking of the thread on Vermont leaving the Union, a simple thought came to a few girls and myself. Is the system of a republic still needed? Way back in the old days, there was little or basically no possibility for every citizen to vote on each  major change/issue in the govt. But with today's technology, would it not be easier to give all U.S. citizens a guaranteed weekend off each month ( or something like that ) to read over the most important issues and then to click their mouse and vote? Of course, there are problems with this, but it is just an initial thought. Perhaps all of us would have more free time when taxes would be better allocated, and the public would then be much better informed and educated, aware of the finally simplified law codex. And of course, a major problem with such an idea is that it would make our corrupt politicians less needed and less powerful. I am sure they would not be thrilled about that. :) How would the country have voted for Iraq? How would they vote for the current Immigration bill? No one would be able to blame a Rep or Senator for their own stupidity when shit goes wrong. Are we ready to test out a real democracy?


real democracy? as in communism?  or real republic as in constitution?

a republic is needed now more than ever!

The forefathers HATED democracy and it was not even a consideration.  democracy is what the new world "global" order wants to push through that is why you hear the word incorrectly used on the tv ALL the time so that everyone else also uses it only to forget that we are a republic based on law not whim of the day democracy.

yes we need to absolutely start voting on these issues and have numbered receipts issued for recounts so we have the ability to correctly challenge fraud that our government has become SO proficient at pulling off.


and a thought on vermont, if vermont wants to move out i want to move in!  i fully support any state that desires to cede from the union at this point to form more perfect government that retains our inalienable rights




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/5/2007 6:22:21 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 5:27:53 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Thinking of the thread on Vermont leaving the Union, a simple thought came to a few girls and myself. Is the system of a republic still needed? Yes, it is.  Way back in the old days, there was little or basically no possibility for every citizen to vote on each  major change/issue in the govt. But with today's technology, would it not be easier to give all U.S. citizens a guaranteed weekend off each month So there would be no hospitals, power plants or firemen/cops for one weekend a month? ( or something like that ) to read over the most important issues several importnat issues could be decided with a weekend of reading?  What about the illiterate and functional illiterate in our society?  and then to click their mouse and vote? this would be required by law?  or only interested people would vote? Of course, there are problems with this, but it is just an initial thought. Perhaps all of us would have more free time when taxes would be better allocated why do you assume illiterate peopel clicking a mouse as thier party or priest tells them to would produce better tax allocation?, and the public would then be much better informed and educated, Would they?, seems like a rather baseless conclusion to me aware of the finally simplified law codex Simple laws would simply mean more latitude given to the judges.  Laws are written complicatedly for a reason, to be very specific in what they mean and apply to.. And of course, a major problem with such an idea is that it would make our corrupt politicians less needed and less powerful. I am sure they would not be thrilled about that. :) How would the country have voted for Iraq? the polls had it at aproximatley 80% support How would they vote for the current Immigration bill? The polls have the majority supporting that also don't they?  I am not sure of that though.  No one would be able to blame a Rep or Senator for their own stupidity when shit goes wrong I think people would still find a way of shifitng blame, peoople are good at that. Are we ready to test out a real democracy? As in eliminate the bill of rights and all of our constittutional rights in exchange for the whim of 50.01% of the voters on any given weekend?  Absolutly not.

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 5:34:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Mob rule sounds good to me.

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 6:09:18 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		We are not a democracy because our founding fathers believed mob rule was just as dangerous as King George III.

Democracy has been tried in Ancient Greece. It had its problems just like the Roman republic had its problems.

I also dont think Americans are knowledgeable enough to make reasonable decisions. 70% of Americans couldnt find Iraq on the globe. 33% of high school seniors dont know who won the Civil War.
Remember what Winston Churchill once said, "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 7:24:49 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Remember what Winston Churchill once said, "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."



If he were alive today he would probably point out that the best argument against the US form of government is a five-minute conversation with the sitting President.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 8:11:19 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I've been thinking about that too.
Probably a lot of other people have as well.
I really do think that The People need to have a lot more say in what *our* government does!
I really don't know how that could be a "bad" thing!
As for Winston Churchill he never would have made it in the U.S.
If he said something like that to a Citizen in this country he'd end up getting his face slapped!

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 8:15:41 PM   
Sinergy


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I disagree, popeye1250.

I think Churchill would do just fine in this country.  A gifted orator.  A war veteran.  A skilled politician.  Fearless.  Curmudgeonly.  Not willing to sacrifice his ideals for political expediency.  Most people trying to slap him would get walking stick-smacked upside the head, and then invited over for some irish whiskey and cigars to work things out.

I have thought for most of my life that the US government could use some people like him.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 8:19:16 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		As one who is wary of any concentration of power, I am all in favor of the diffusion of power - but this might be taking things a little to far.  Let's see if we can get to a point where we actually obey the Constitution (ya, I know, but hope springs eternal).  Then will take it from there.

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/5/2007 9:01:16 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		None of us have experienced a true republic. And actually democracy is the only form of government that can't succeed. Even communism can succeed if the leaders are not greedy.

A true democracy could work for a small group, but it does not work for a nation. People could vote to force you to paint your house pink, for example.

In a republic you elect leaders who think these things through and craft the law to assure the maximum freedom within the parameters of the time. Handling international matters, of which there are few, and maintaining the solidity of the country's ecomony, and ergo currency.

These leaders are supposed to be learned in the ways of a republic, and would be chosen on the basis of their intelligence and fairness, and respect for the Constitution. They would think of themselves as servants to the People, and always act in the best interest of the People, NOT just their constituents. Although they might be serving the People being their leader, that is how a true leader thinks.

A true leader is very cogizant of the alliegiance those he leads have bestowed upon him. And he is aware that he owes them each alot more in return.

To win the hearts and minds of the People and they will die for you, but you have no intention of returning the favor, and they know it, you owe them bigtime.

True leaders pay that debt by thinking about what they're doing in terms of what is good for those they lead. True leaders don't lead your ass to die in Korea, VietNam, Afghanistan or Iraq. True leaders would have bombed the living shit out of Israel after they destroyed the USS Liberty. True leaders wouldn't let a bunch of people change the agenda.

True leaders know that this is the flesh and blood of those who follow that will be paid for their folly. They don't want that.

True leaders want their followers to be intelligent, why do literacy rates rise in places like Cuba and Venezuela, and drop in the US ? Why are they destroying us day by day ? They have already destroyed most of what was good about living here, and let Mexicans in all the time. Well, OK no tromping on a guy who wants a better life, and that is not within the scope of this subject, but some of us might see people voluntarily going back to Mexico.

What I am saying is that the "leaders" betray us every chance they get, and I am getting sick of it.

One true leader is all we need, and I don't really want the job.

So maybe the republic we have is outdated, but what we started with 200 or so years ago is not. And it was not perfect, take a look around.

T

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/6/2007 6:48:06 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Point to a country where the people are more prosperous, and there is more of a balance between personal liberties and community well being. Remove from the equation who the sitting president is or if there is a war. The American people as a whole, have been more giving than most anyone.

Each country will have good and bad points. The government evolves around the culture of the people. True democracy does not work, my mention of Mob Rule was sarcasm to wake people up. What happens if the majority do not like you and feel you should die? Just vote on it?

The average voter does not have a clue. I made some posts before that stated a few things that will help.

Term limits for Congressmen.
Make it so that Senators are appointed by the states and not by popular vote. They are supposed to be the ambassador for a States rights at the federal level.
Remove popular election for President as it is a farce. Allow an electorate voted by the people to determine it.

Oh and I forgot, get the federal government out of our fucking schools. It is not education as much as indoctrination.


Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/6/2007 10:28:02 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"The American people as a whole, have been more giving than most anyone. "

Yes when forced to. And we are. I choose not to give, what do you think of that ?

Your plan would be a step in the right direction, maybe, but I don't think it addresses the core problem. The choosing of the candidates.

When you got a large foreign influence on your currency and a trade deficit, and debt out the ass you do not start wars. I could've told you that in the fifth grade. And yet GWB wants to do what "they" want no matter what any country says, because what we say goes, yup.

So the US has become a part of a new axis of evil, which includes England, the US and Israel. Most of the shit they do is not supported by the People. Russia and China are getting a bit edgy to say the least. Russia is selling Moskits 2s to Iran (a couple years ago, I dunno what they are selling them now).

China just keeps her mouth shut, and when the golden goose dies she is going to cook it. I mean when the chips are down China will play her trump card, dumping her bonds and dollars. But she doesn't want to do it until the time is right, but not right for us. Right for China. Possibly even right for the Chinese people, think of that.

And if you think the communist leaders of China have done nothing for the country, take a look at it and compare it to 100 years ago.

I am not saying their system is perfect, but 100 years ago the US was on top of the world, and we have slid downhill, and are at the mercy of the big money. And China has transformed from an agri-society into an industrio-society. And they have a huge trade surplus.

In the same time in history look what has happened to the US.

Draw your own conclusions.

T

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/6/2007 11:55:50 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

We are not a democracy because our founding fathers believed mob rule was just as dangerous as King George III.


George III had NO power! It was Parliament that had power and wasn't the founding fathers the mob?

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Democracy has been tried in Ancient Greece. It had its problems just like the Roman republic had its problems.


Democracy in ancient Greece was for the minority of priveleged who lorded it over the plebs and slaves. Western Democracy comes from north European Germanic tribes. France and America then took on neo-classical constitutions, while Britain and Scandinavian countries remained rooted to the Germanic democratic traditions. The rich and priveleged still lord it over the plebs who are happy to feel free because the rich and priveleged tell them they are free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Remember what Winston Churchill once said, "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."


Well he would say that wouldn't he since he was told to 'Fuck off!' by the average voter.

_____________________________

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/7/2007 3:39:37 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		If you believe that the US is part of the Axis of Evil, then why do you still live here and support it with your tax money?

I am glad that I am not party aligned, and have those cheerleading blinders on. GWB is not a very good President in many ways. Going into Iraq was a mistake, the fight should have been in Afghanistan, and later in Malaysia and Africa, if we wanted to go after Islamic Fascist. It was congress that approved it though, don't give them any excuses for their mistakes, they are big boys and girls. They should have asked for more validity, and some of them did see all of the intelligence reports and still made the same decision to authorize the war.

GWB does not even represent the principles of the Republican party. Some call him a neo-con but new conservative he is not. Call him a non-con if you wish, it is more accurate. The Dems are just the second head on the same dragon, as you alude to, and they need to take responsibility as well. Socialism taken too far or applied to the wrong areas is a mistake just as Capitalism if taken to extremes and in the wrong areas.

This modern republic is not outdated, the people are less interested in what is going on with politicians, and more interested in celebrities going to jail. The average voter has no clue, and does not desire one. They are happy with their ET, MTV, BET, CMT.

Mob Rule may sometimes get it right, and the founding fathers as a Mob did get it right. We the people, this country and the servants of it, took it off that road and it started well over a century ago. Not sure if we can actually pull it back on the right path, but the alternative is what?


Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/7/2007 4:32:32 AM   
aviinterra


Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

This modern republic is not outdated, the people are less interested in what is going on with politicians, and more interested in celebrities going to jail. The average voter has no clue, and does not desire one. They are happy with their ET, MTV, BET, CMT.


Maybe, the fact that everyone here is so disinterested, is the reason why the republic is outdated. It is all too easy for the average voter now to just leave everything up to the politicians. Giving the people the choice to at least sway the govt. by their votes would make everyone more interested. And I seriously doubt that all of the sudden there would be a vote on painting houses pink. I believe such a system would actually lessen the amount of issues, as people would be more prone to keep govt out of their lives- like it was meant to be by the founding fathers.

You seem to think that the people are always wrong, and therefore unfit to rule themselves, that only a superior class of leadership can keep everything going. If that is the truth, then why for the last 10,000 years are we still struggling with the same fundemental problems and ills? I will give you a hint- because those you deem so much better are actually just as greedy, stupid and disloyal as all the rest of us, which is why letting everyone have a voice might actually work.

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/7/2007 4:34:10 AM   
aviinterra


Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		opps! meant the above as a reply to OrionTheWolf's post. 

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/7/2007 11:23:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Well, there is a reason democracy doesn't work.

That reason is selfishness. People who get social security will vote for those who pledge the utmosdt to keep thei checks coming. Welfare recipients will vote for whoever they think will give them more money, and working people will vote for whoever they believe will lower taxes.

We are not a country anymore, it is animal against animal. And that is how it is.

People will vote based on abortion rights, which is totally irrelevant to the topic of running the country. People will vote on what the TV says. How come major newspapers come out suppoting certain candidates, is this a stupidity test or what ? If it is, alot of people are getting as passing grade.

Real, and others shut up for a minute, don't say shit right now.

"Each according to his needs and each according to his abilities".

Is that part of the US Constitution ?

Answers please.

T

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/8/2007 8:33:25 AM   
aviinterra


Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		I can see your point, but I was thinking more on the lines of voting not for someone, but for something- like for example overturning the death penalty or such. If the majority are on welfare, then there is something wrong with the state as it is and it will either bring itself out of such a quandary or not. But in a normal situation, you would have a country made of the middle class that has been educated well in civics, and taught to think on their own in regards to voting.
Yes, some people would still vote for what the TV or newspaper says, but I am giving the benefit of the doubt to the masses, and besides, it is they that have instigated the most interesting changes in history ( revolutions, etc. )
"Each according to his needs and each according to his abilities" is Marxist, going contrary to capitalistic theory. In our current, specific type of capitalistic society, we are never compensated according to our abilities or the amount of work we put in ( just check out the retired CEO packages ), and our needs have gone far to the extreme of material greed. We are taught that debt is good, that being landless is good. The above quoted statement would have applied to the early U.S., but not today.
In a way, today's society resembles that which the original founding fathers strove to run away from- a state ruled by dynastic families ( Kennedys, Bushes, etc. ) and where the average Joe does not stand a chance to be heard- our Congress today is a watered down version of 18th century nobility who are increasingly out of touch with the people, with a semi-king on top who is inept and most unpopular. I think someone on this thread mentioned that a civil war might be on hand soon, and it might be true if shit keeps piling up like this.  But these are just some thoughts. 

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/10/2007 6:09:13 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I seem to think the people are always wrong? That would be an impression, and I doubt you can pull any of my quotes that support that statement directly. Who do I deem better? You need to read the written words and not what you assume may be behind them. The people of this country are the most important, the government should be a servant of the people, through the rule of law. We have a Bill of Rights and Constitution as the foundation, we should use it.

You offer excuses for people to fail, and I refuse to accept excuses. Be part of the apathetic party if you wish, but the choice of inaction is still a choice. we all live by our own choices, and the consequences they might bring.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

quote:

This modern republic is not outdated, the people are less interested in what is going on with politicians, and more interested in celebrities going to jail. The average voter has no clue, and does not desire one. They are happy with their ET, MTV, BET, CMT.


Maybe, the fact that everyone here is so disinterested, is the reason why the republic is outdated. It is all too easy for the average voter now to just leave everything up to the politicians. Giving the people the choice to at least sway the govt. by their votes would make everyone more interested. And I seriously doubt that all of the sudden there would be a vote on painting houses pink. I believe such a system would actually lessen the amount of issues, as people would be more prone to keep govt out of their lives- like it was meant to be by the founding fathers.

You seem to think that the people are always wrong, and therefore unfit to rule themselves, that only a superior class of leadership can keep everything going. If that is the truth, then why for the last 10,000 years are we still struggling with the same fundemental problems and ills? I will give you a hint- because those you deem so much better are actually just as greedy, stupid and disloyal as all the rest of us, which is why letting everyone have a voice might actually work.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: outdated Republic? - 6/10/2007 11:22:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		aviinterra that was not the point. "Each according to his needs and each according to his abilities" is thought to be part of the US Constitution by like almost 30% of the people.

We have already lost. I seek the next battle.

T

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