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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 12:59:04 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
Emma Goldman


Well there you go...

Sage wisdom by one of the most duped and failed women of the last 125 years.

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 12:59:22 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Says something about the CiC, that they're so ignorant of how the military functions to have missed that little nugget of wisdom, too.

Of course, anyone who was literate, AND payed attention during history would have understood this.



What makes you think they really didn't understand this?

Seems to me that the industrial-military complex is being served quite well, as a result of us being there for an extended stay.

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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 1:02:37 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		You can stop selling now ... the money has changed hands.
 
My guess, is that no bill will pass, the fence will be built, and there will be an outcry to enforce the laws ... which will in fact happen. Tens of thousands will be deported, and the illegals will leave by the millions, on their own.
 
I think this will absolutely financially gut major parts of the south. The agra industry in my state will die on the vine, all while housing prices fly right out the roof. In a few years, there will need to be a federally funded bailout, that will cost everyone ten times what the illegals cost in the first place.
 
You will be bitching and moaning the entire time they are prying the money from your hands.
 
So, you aren't going to convince me Popeye, because I still think you are dead wrong ... but, we will get a chance to find out, won't we?
 
It's the will of the people that it goes this way. I just hope the people that want this, will have the honor to admit it, if they turn out to be wrong.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 1:08:07 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
No one acting honestly and honourably will ever get anywhere.

E


This is because acting honorably and honestly requires a level playing field for all, and the PTB doesn't like level playing fields.

Therefore, an honest and honorable man or woman in power is an enormous threat to the PTB, and must be stopped at all costs.

So we can rest assured that any shining voices of honor and reason will never garner more than 2-3% of the vote, anytime soon.  

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 1:09:57 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Iraq is exactly what they want it to be ... it will go on, and on, and on ... which is exactly what they want.
And "they" would be who?.........luci



They = the PTB.

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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 1:51:59 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Caitlyn, we don't have a "shortage" of workers, we have a shortage of workers who will work for $9 an hour.
In some areas 50% of kids don't graduate high school.
We certainly don't have a shortage of high school dropouts do we?
In "Capitalism" if you can't find workers to work at a certain wage you raise that wage until you can.
That's what we've always done in this country until about 15 years ago and it's served us very well.

The scenario that you describe sounds a lot like what Big Business keeps trying to sell us so that they can continue to break our laws and use cheap illegal labor.
It's always a "doomsday scenario" pricewise that they keep trying to make us believe that would just never happen.
If they had to pay someone $16 an hour instead of $9 does that mean that they (wouldn't) be, "passing along the savings to the consumer?" I mean, like they are now?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/8/2007 2:25:56 PM >

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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 2:41:24 PM   
sophia37


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Status: offline 		Its all about the art of the compromise. Im just sorry William Wallace didnt agree with that.

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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 2:42:04 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal.
Emma Goldman


Well there you go...

Sage wisdom by one of the most duped and failed women of the last 125 years.


When the computers running the voting machines aren't audit-able, what else is it called besides a scam?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 4:11:37 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I'm not sure I'm reading your intended message properly but here's my views on it if I get your drift correctly.


Most of the problems are caused because people are easily misdirected from real issues, and the tv tells them what is important, as opposed to what really is important. It also stems from imprinting your own views on others.

Like the Iraq war, when I looked at that when it first started going bad, my gut reaction was they are fucking up. And I do think they are fucking up compared to the way I'D do it. But once a person accepts that another persons motivations for doing something can be completely foreign to your own natural thought pattern, it allows you to think more "out of the box". So, Joe Blow looks at the war, and says look at all those people dying, Bush sure is stupid and fucking it up. Joe Blow assumes Bush actually is basing his decisions on deaths, or opinion polls. Now if Joe Blow can't or won't look at the scenario from other viewpoints of motivation, his natural impulse will be, to write it off as stupidity. That would make Joe Blow a Sheeple in that case, because he simply accepted a theory given to him, without examining it for himself. He took the thought of least resistance.

My view is a Sheeple (what's the singular form of this word) is a person that accepts a fact without reflection or an attempt to find other reasons that would explain the facts better. So, a person could be independent and still be a sheep, or a republican or a democrat, or an environmentalist, or a CEO, or whatever. The distinguishing characteristic that seperates sheeple from thinking people, is reflection on one's accepted view, and the willingness to change them based on new information.

So, to me if you accept as fact, ideas, theories, logic, motivations,  without reflection on them, then your a sheeple. I think most of us have some beliefs theories justifications, views, etc... that qualify under that category, but in all honesty, I'd say a good 80% of people fall into this category, nearly entirely. As they will take on the views that are repeated most often to them or that simply benefit them and their group.  This is not an educational issue, a class issue, a economic issue, but rather a reliance upon others to think for you  and/or a lack of control over ones impulses.. It is entirely possible and actually quite advantageous to merely adopt the views of those in your sphere of influence.

I'm not entirely sure that is what you were getting at but that is what sheeple are to me. Essentially Group Think. 9 out of 10 doctors agree.





(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 6:08:32 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

President Bush took the country in the direction he and his wanted it to go. You didn't want it that way, and neither did I ... but does that make him "stupid?"


No, being barely literate makes him stupid.



Actually, being barely literate makes him ignorant.  Getting a fantastic education at some of the top schools on the planet, and refusing to actually learn anything, as well as bankrupting half a dozen companies and turning Texas into a toxic waste dump, tend to indicate that he is stupid.

Since IQ tests were put in to place, he has scored the lowest on any of them of any President we have had.  This might indicate his stupidity.

He got the numerically lowest score possible to get into military flight school.  This happened while his father was governor of Texas and politically connected, and the more cynical of us might think that somebody went in and changed the scores after the fact.  Even if he scrambled his way to the bottom, I tend to read the word "stupid" in the story.

Not sure either of these things technically "make" him stupid, they simply indicate his dithering idiocy.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 6:14:05 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		His dad was never governor, he was a congressman. The rest may be correct lol.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/8/2007 6:25:32 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

His dad was never governor, he was a congressman. The rest may be correct lol.


George H. W. Bush was a Congressman from 1967 to 1971. 

His son was in the Texas National Guard in 1972 and 1973.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: We the Sheeple - 6/9/2007 12:31:32 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Bush isn't stupid, and he's largely irrelevant.

The US government knows exactly what it is doing with Iraq and the wider Middle East, and in their terms they will deem Iraq to be a success. Forget the small details. US foreign policy has one aim - impose a system that allows for an open market and trade with the US. That's it. From the system, wealth is generated which drives innovation in the US and allows the US to keep ahead of the game.

Some won't see a problem with this, and will put it down to looking after your own, but is providing a bigger house and a bigger car really looking after your own? What about enlightenment, self-development, environmental concern? Shouldn't these be the issues that a government champions if it wants to look after its own? I mean, even a burrow owl can feed its young, so providing possessions is pretty much standard fayre. What does it say about a society that believes freedom is the ability to choose to eat itself to death, or choose between a television the size of a small african country and a holiday? I mean, is that the sum of thousands of years of civilisation?

Where politicians are corrupt it is because society is rotten to the core. People like Blair can lie to Parliament (and by extension wider society) on an issue such as sending an army to a country to kill people, and a significant minority simply do not care providing the weekend trips to Barcelona don't dry up. My reading of this board and US foreign policy is that you're in an even worse situation than we are and that is no mean feat. The relentless regurgitating of propaganda is something to behold on this board, but then how could it be any different when children at school have to swear an oath of allegiance. In any other language, this is indoctrination into the ideals of the prevailing culture/status quo. Their view of society is intended to become your view right from the word go. If that doesn't set the alarm bells ringing, then you're struggling. From where I'm standing, it is exactly the same as legions of North Korean soldiers marching in the streets of conformity. In the West, and in particular the US, business is the prevailing and dominant culture. Television stations refuse to air commercials that "do not support the nation's economic policies". Every time you turn a television on, rampant consumerism is tacitly and explicity given approval and beamed into your home. The West has been brainwashed into thinking business is everything to the extent that people are blind to the fact that they've lost representation and freedom.

Ultimately, blaming someone like Bush is a get out of jail free card. Society is the problem.

For those not happy with the status quo, there needs to be an alliance between those who already vote for a third party, and those who don't vote anymore because they're completely disillusioned with the democratic process. They'll have to put their left and right differences aside for the time being and realise that they need to regain representation before they begin to discuss who has the better idea. At the moment, the corporate idea is king and the individual is its subject, which is great if the extent of your dreams and aspirations is to feed your family, but then you may as well be a rabbit.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/9/2007 6:25:04 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
This happened while his father was governor of Texas and politically connected ...

Not sure either of these things technically "make" him stupid, they simply indicate his dithering idiocy.


I couldn't have made my case, better than you made it here.
 
By the way ... much of the "toxic waste dump" media spin, comes from looking at refineries in the middle of nowhere, in a state that has a whole lot of middle of nowhere. Two points:
 
1. If all States with large coastal regions would build just one good sized refinery in the middle of nowhere, it would do much to ameliorate the shortage of refined fuel in the country.
 
2. The refinery in Texas was proposed, passed and paid for while Ann Richards was in office. That it was finished on President Bush's term, is really only yet another spin point.
 
Not that I'm defending President Bush, by the way ... but he has done enough to on his own to earn respectful opposition, without inventing obvious mistruths with which to attack him.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/9/2007 6:38:46 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

1. If all States with large coastal regions would build just one good sized refinery in the middle of nowhere, it would do much to ameliorate the shortage of refined fuel in the country.

 
I thought I would point out that California has seen many refineries close in the last decade, and they were closed by the oil companies, which caused a 20 percent drop in production while demand was increasing

http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2007/05/taking_on_high.html

Not that this important to the thread
 
 

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/9/2007 6:54:01 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		It probably is important to the thread julia.
 
There were articles in our papers here, that a few national watchdog groups set up shop right outside the new refinery on the Texas coast (which really is in the middle of nowhere), and picked that exact spot to measure air quality, soil quality, etc ... in order to post some information on a national level, and blame the whole mess on President Bush.
 
I would imagine that only Alaska, has more "unspoiled land" than Texas has. This is just a guess on my part.
 
As I said, President Bush has done enough on his own ... if I had my way, when he leaves office he can relocate to the North Pole for all I care. At least they don't have an army to invade anyone.
 
At the same time, people making up things to blame him for, is really less than helpful. At the time those decisions were made about that refinery, he owned a baseball team. As an aside, he catches a lot of heat for leaving that team in a poor financial state, but of course the critics always seem to exclude the fact that he paid his share of a new baseball stadium, while he was the owner ... and that the current owners, and the city, are making a killing now.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/9/2007 11:52:32 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

As I said, President Bush has done enough on his own ... if I had my way, when he leaves office he can relocate to the North Pole for all I care. At least they don't have an army to invade anyone.
 


..ooh, i'm not so sure about that. There are a lot of really annoyed Polar Bears up there, and following the destruction of an environment for them to live in they may well invade the USA as part of a punitive action..........

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RE: We the Sheeple - 6/9/2007 12:20:10 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Caitlyn, we don't have a "shortage" of workers, we have a shortage of workers who will work for $9 an hour.



We have a surplus of workers.  This drives wages down.

quote:



That's what we've always done in this country until about 15 years ago and it's served us very well.



Then all the jobs were offshored to India or automated out of existence.  These things do not happen in a vacuum,
popeye1250.

My favorite was the fact that union jobs offered a living wage to individuals, gave us weekends off, gave us benefits, ensured a good standard of living.  A lot of these union jobs were in things like the automotive industry and steel.

The big corporations offshored all these jobs.

The next big wave was internet / computer jobs.

The big corporations offshored most of these jobs.

Then the big corporations complained that nobody was willing to buy their cars, houses, televisions, etc.

There is a cause and effect relationship between wages and spending.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: We the Sheeple - 6/9/2007 4:26:46 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Elective wars gone bad get are upsetting and difficult to remedy.

Bush has proven a couple of things: 1) he overreached the US's capabilities; 2) he can't remedy his mistake.

Its really too bad he went into IRAQ, and its too bad he didn't better manage the WAR once he did.


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 6/9/2007 4:27:20 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: We the Sheeple - 6/9/2007 9:38:40 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

What can a single person do? How about admit that disrespecting and underestimating the opposition (as in, thinking they are just stupid), is a clear path to allowing them to kick our ass, again, and again, and again.


caitlyn:

excellent description and examples of the modus operandus of "pressure from above/pressure from below" politics as applied to mass control.

i think you will find not to many people are aware of these methods of media control.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to caitlyn)
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