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Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 11:38:35 AM

beargonewild

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Greetings,

Had got to thinking and taling with a friend of mine about different views on Master/slave dynamics where both are living under the same roof. We had bee discussing concepts of consent and the various forms which is given ie verbal, non verbal.
This raised a point that when consent is given by the slave and then the slave sees they have doubts and maybe some issues. Does the original consent supercede the fears and doubts of the slave or does the emerging doubts/issues require an alteration of the original consent?

I'll use an incident which I had first hand klnowledge of as an example:
Throught the several months prior to the slave moving into his Master's house on a 24/7 basis, the Master referred to the eventuality of the slave getting a genital piercing. The slave had expressed fears and issues regarding his genitals being pierced. Into the relationship, this issue was brought forth and the slave again balked and expressed his concerns and issues against said piercing being done. Though the topic was thoroughly discussed and the Master knew his slave's absolute limit on this. In the end, the slave was simply told he will get it done as it is Master's wish.

Im curious on the opinions and thought anyone here has on this. My own thoughts is even though a slave has placed his wants and needs and desires under a Master's control. The Master should have a full understanding that sometimes a slaves fears and absolute limits are not to be trifled with and must be approached with great caution for the psychological well being of the slave. And the Master has to realize that some absolute limits have to remain in place and this doesn't it's mean a lack of trust from the slave.

ps - the slave never did get his genitals pierced and is now uncollared due to other issues from the failed relationship.

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 6/10/2007 11:41:33 AM >

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 11:46:24 AM

mistoferin

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In the situation you described it doesn't sound like the slave ever actually gave consent. Maybe you didn't share that part? Regardless, consent is only good up to the moment of withdrawal of consent. People like to talk about blanket consent which is only given once, the truth is though that it's a fantasy. Human beings have the right to withdraw consent. Some may "feel" as though they can't, and I can certainly understand that...but they really can and anyone who pushes past the point that consent is withdrawn is guilty of coercion.

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 11:48:03 AM

ProfJoe

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I agree with you, beargonewild. It would be interesting to know the extent and quality of his "slavery." If it is full agreement where the slave has yielded his right to consent, then he seems to have actually given consent ... he knew the issue was there before he moved in, expressed doubts, and whether the Master is right or wrong is, on that level, pretty much irrelevant.

Whether the decision is wise or not is entirely different, as you suggest. We don't know the Master's thinking or the source of the slave's fear, or the extent: hesitation, terror, ....?

Just as, as you say, the Master has an implied responsibility to act for the well-being of the slave but retains the right to act exclusively according to his own wishes ... so the slave has an implied responsibility to trust and yield, but he retains the right to walk away from the relationship.

Depending on that relationship's meaning of "slavery," the slave retains at least the requirement and right to "Obey or Leave."

Respectfully,

Prof. Joe

< Message edited by ProfJoe -- 6/10/2007 11:49:51 AM >

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 11:49:20 AM

imthatacheyouhav

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quote:

And the Master has to realize that some absolute limits have to remain in place and this doesn't it's mean a lack of trust from the slave.

Yes i feel respecting limits is very important...i'm not sure what you were asking in this sentence though....

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 11:52:43 AM

kyraofMists

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In my relationship as long as he is sure that what he wants to do will not harm me or the relationship then it will be done no matter what my objections or concerns are.

There have been a few things that he wants from me that he has chosen not to do yet because he is not positive that it will not harm me or the relationship. One of those things is needle play. He knows that I have a phobia around needles. He was never interested in doing needle play until he saw my reaction to pictures that a former CM poster sent me one time. After that he wanted to learn. Last month he learned how in a workshop. Then he only practiced on alandra. However, we have had discussions about it and casual comments have been mentioned here and there from him to the point where I am now curious and have asked him to experience needles.

I know that physically I will not be harmed by the experience and I have now reached the point where I no longer want my fear controlling me in this area. If my fear is controlling me then he does not have the authority. He is patient in getting me to a point where I am able to accept the things that he wants from me, but there is no mistake that eventually I will do them. We just need to reach a point where my faith in him is not overshadowed by my fears. That is not an immediate process and takes time and effort to get there.

Knight's kyra

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 11:56:58 AM

earthycouple

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Simply because Robert didn't come to me with a hard limit in some forum before I collared him, does not mean he doesn't have the right to add something. How many of us are ever all inclusive as much as we try to be? I personally thought I was done writing my hard limit list when someone said to me "how do you feel about fucking a dead body?" I then had to add necrophilia to my list of hard limits. Go figure.

I love him. I want him fulfilled and happy. I want us to last for the rest of our lives...and if he feels so adamant against something then I will work with him on that. I don't have such a power trip going that I would say "too bad, slave"

Now before someone says "but what if he suddenly says walking the dog is a hard limit?" Well if I ever thought I'd hear something as silly as that, he wouldn't be my collared slave. I first off must have trust in his trust of me and his very real want to be my slave.

Any doubts Robert ever has I encourage him to talk with me. When he gets to a point he feels he can't talk to me then it is time we reevaluate our belonging together.

Edited to add: I promised I would care for Robert....that means mind and soul too...and randomly making him do something that truly frightens him could damage his pschye. If I feel I MUST engage in something I would work him up to it with much talk and learning first. I still would NOT do it, if in the end he still was as frightened as when we started talking about it.

< Message edited by earthycouple -- 6/10/2007 12:01:01 PM >

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 12:03:16 PM

charismagirrl

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It's difficult to distinhuish from your OP whether it was something he stated as a hard limit or if it was something he just expressed alot of fear about and a desire not to do. This also comes down to what that particular pair's definition of Master/slave is.

The way i live M/s sounds similar to that of KOM...there were limits, that i thought were hard ones when i met my Daddy, things i thought i'd never budge on. i assumed that he would just go with my hard limits....well he allowed them for awhile and now they are no longer there. Why? Because i am his slave, and by our definition, i am not allowed to have those limits any longer than he allows me to have them.They aren't a given by any means.(except for the ususal 3 hard ones that most ppl share)

If he chose to pierce, tattoo or brand me...that would be his right. He doesn't want to harm me, and he wants me around for a long time so i know he won't do anything that will harm me (hurt yes, harm no)

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For today i won't say but...
For today i wont say just...
For today i will simply obey....
For today i will trust that You are right...
For always i will be your imperfect slave

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 12:21:08 PM

MsLadySue

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If, as a slave, (I'm not) I was put in the position of you will do this whether you have fears, doubts, etc I would begin to have serious doubts about my relationship. I would quickly lose trust in a Master who doesn't care about my thoughts, feelings, etc. I would also worry about what he might expect of me next, would it be even worse for me to endure?

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 12:34:33 PM

daddysprop247

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if this person gave initial consent to be slave, i tend to view that as a blanket consent (which for some, is not a myth or fantasy), meaning from that point forward the slave's fate is entirely in the hands of the Owner. if the genital piercing issue was one that this person felt they would stand firm on and could never tolerate, then that should have been discussed prior to making that final choice to be slave. of course any Owner may change their mind and even their limits as time goes on, and that's something we as slaves must deal with...but why consent to be the property of a person when you know there is a significant chance that they will subject you to something you know you cannot bear?

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 1:04:34 PM

charismagirrl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsLadySue

If, as a slave, (I'm not) I was put in the position of you will do this whether you have fears, doubts, etc I would begin to have serious doubts about my relationship. I would quickly lose trust in a Master who doesn't care about my thoughts, feelings, etc. I would also worry about what he might expect of me next, would it be even worse for me to endure?

Just a point of view from someone that has had their feelings and thoughts ignored by my Master/Daddy...Sometimes the fact that he does ignore them is the only thing that actually allows me to grow. If he paid attention and adhered to all of my feelings and thoughts then there are a ton of things i wouldn't do, fears i wouldn't face and joy and happiness that i would never now.

Putting your trust in your Master and knowing that they have your best interests at heart is sometimes the only way to go. Sure, at first it is scary and off putting and i can understand where it could make someone do, as you said, and quickly not trust...but sometimes you can't see the end result or the forrest for the trees....sometimes you just have to let go and accept and at the end say "WOW THANK YOU for helping me get passed that, face that, grow"

It can be kind of an edgy way to go for some though, if you push too hard the slave may loose trust, but if you don't push enough you may impede their growth.

_____________________________

For today i won't say but...
For today i wont say just...
For today i will simply obey....
For today i will trust that You are right...
For always i will be your imperfect slave

http://www.mycollarspace.com

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 1:55:27 PM

CitizenCane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

In the situation you described it doesn't sound like the slave ever actually gave consent. Maybe you didn't share that part? Regardless, consent is only good up to the moment of withdrawal of consent. People like to talk about blanket consent which is only given once, the truth is though that it's a fantasy. Human beings have the right to withdraw consent. Some may "feel" as though they can't, and I can certainly understand that...but they really can and anyone who pushes past the point that consent is withdrawn is guilty of coercion.

In some kind of general, abstract moral/ethical sense, I approve of this sentiment, but in practice it's not true. I enter into contracts all the time, and I can't withdraw my consent whenever I choose. If you join the army, you can't withdraw your consent whenever you choose. Even in situations where there is no legal contract and no prospect of enforcement, the same ethical issues that suggest that a person should be free to withdraw consent suggest that- oh my- they shouldn't. That is to say, that the withdrawal of consent is an action, and if unilateral, it's a unilateral action impacting another person, which puts it into the same class as any other unilateral action affecting other people.
People may or may not have the ability to withdraw consent under various circumstances, but having the ability is not the same as having some kind of ethical 'right' to do so. Our current legal system certainly does not support any contracts of consensual slavery, so there is no question of enforcement, but the ethical issue remains. In the example cited, it's not clear that there was any consent or that the relationship agreed to was one of 'anything the Master wants', and it would appear that the Master in this situation was attempting to compel compliance with something the slave had never consented to. That's an ethical violation, in my book. In other circumstances, though, I believe that people do ethically acquire the burden of maintaining their consent, often even in situations where the details have not been specified.

(in reply to mistoferin)

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 2:14:21 PM

AquaticSub

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The hard fact of life is that not every little thing can be discussed before hand. We try our best to cover everything but we just don't. I believe in blanket consent to a degree. I wouldn't have a problem with Valyraen wanting to pierce my body, within reason. Just because you can pinch the skin doesn't mean you should put a needle there after all, at least not for a permenant piercing!

But we haven't talked about him branding me. Don't know why, just hasn't come up. I doubt he'd ever want to but if he did and was trying to force me into it when I was uncomfortable and unsure, then I might withdraw consent.

It is my belief that part of being a responsible owner is realizing that you can't cover everything in the world before collaring. Cover the really important stuff and put the energy and work into the relationship to make the other things come out all right.

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 2:39:27 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

Does the original consent supercede the fears and doubts of the slave or does the emerging doubts/issues require an alteration of the original consent?

In general, with me, nope. Fears and doubts are a part of life. With the person I am slowly working towards a relationship with, I fully expect there to be some issues and doubts that appear with certain things later down the road. Submitting to only the things a person wants to do doesnt really fly with me, because how is it submission?

I simply dont place a time limit on those things and am taking the attitude of working towards overcoming whatever arises. What I want doesnt change, but whether I get it tommorrow night or in a year is irrelevant to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
I'll use an incident which I had first hand klnowledge of as an example:
Throught the several months prior to the slave moving into his Master's house on a 24/7 basis, the Master referred to the eventuality of the slave getting a genital piercing. The slave had expressed fears and issues regarding his genitals being pierced. Into the relationship, this issue was brought forth and the slave again balked and expressed his concerns and issues against said piercing being done. Though the topic was thoroughly discussed and the Master knew his slave's absolute limit on this. In the end, the slave was simply told he will get it done as it is Master's wish.

While its impossible to cover every little thing in a slave contract prior to a relationship (Nor do I even try), this, however, I dont really think counts because it was a major issue.

I think the problem isnt so much consent, but bad communication prior to the relationship.

The issue was discussed prior to the relationship beginning so...

1) The slave agreed to something that he knew he couldnt do
2) The Master promised something and went back on it
3) Both of them just let the issue hang in mid air.

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 2:52:55 PM

LovingLife

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IMHO, any 'master' who insists on ignoring his/her slaves absolute limit is a self-centered, narcissistic poser, with no concern for the physical, emotional and/or psychological welfare of the slave. A slave is a living being - not an inanimate possession.

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 3:16:45 PM

leakylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

if this person gave initial consent to be slave, i tend to view that as a blanket consent (which for some, is not a myth or fantasy), meaning from that point forward the slave's fate is entirely in the hands of the Owner. if the genital piercing issue was one that this person felt they would stand firm on and could never tolerate, then that should have been discussed prior to making that final choice to be slave. of course any Owner may change their mind and even their limits as time goes on, and that's something we as slaves must deal with...but why consent to be the property of a person when you know there is a significant chance that they will subject you to something you know you cannot bear?

very very well said.

love and light
lee

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 4:27:17 PM

beargonewild

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Thanks for the various opinions and some had brought up points neither myself or my friend had touched on. I do agree that it is pretty much impossible for a Master and a potential slave to clarify every single thing prior to entering in a relationship. My stance is simply that whether it's a Master/slave or a Dom/sub dynamic, there has to be flexibility coming from both the Dominant and the submissive. Yes, a blanket consent was given when the slave had become part of the House, yet in my opinion, if the slave had found the reality of getting that piercing was still a hard limit, the Master could have determined that in this case it wasn't worth asserting his control in that issue. I may be way off base in this but I don't see this being a case where the slave was tryying to wrest control away from his Master, instead the Master having a degree of flexibilty in his wants and needs having a slave who is grateful not to endure what he consideres a mutilation of his genitals (his words!) and extend that gratitude to better serving his Master for this repreive.

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 4:50:12 PM

Elorin

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From: San Antonio, TX
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When I considered slavery to M, I was wholly confident that I could trust him with all things. I knew that he was aware of and respected my hesitations and doubts as well as my limits, and that he would not destroy my trust by walking all over my hesitations just because a collar was on my neck.

If I had had ANY doubt that he would, I wouldn't have trusted him enough to be his slave.

That doesn't mean I got my way in all things. That doesn't mean that if I had a hesitation, he didn't do it. It did mean that he listened to my hesitations, and if he chose to proceed anyway, he respected it if I suddenly realized "this isn't a hesitation, this is a hard firm limit". If I was concerned in any way I was encouraged to speak my mind.

I had hesitation when my tongue piercing came time to happen, but I wasn't afraid, I trusted Sir, and it happened.

The time of my slavery to Sir has ended, though I hope to see it happen again. But the trust I have for him to consider my needs and respect my limits still exists.

~E

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 5:38:41 PM

Penseur

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I don't view a slave or a submissive as a breathing doll. I tend to see them as human beings who like to please me. I consider this important as it underlays I have to have some respect for that human being, generous human being I might say. Therefore, I'm a firm believer in the concept of limits and how a Dom should not only respect the sub's hard limits but also make sure they are enforced, as He is also the protector of his submissive. I see a Dom's role as a guide and protector, not as a pure abuser who can simply enforce His will no matter what.

I often discuss with my subbies about their preferences and desires... if they match mine, then I will certainly enact them... at the moment and in the fashion of my chosing.

Penseur

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 6:31:28 PM

velvetears

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A master who values his slave would not insist on something that obviously the slave felt very against. It appears it was discussed to some extent, maybe not enough. What value can there be in forcing an issue with a slave when the result can be trauma and possible damage? Someome spoke about a dom having as much trust in their slave to actually want to be slaves and please their dom but there are things a slave might come up against that they just can't get past. Imagine how it can even make the slave feel.... heartbroken at not being able to give their master what they want.

This is the precise reason i will not consent to being a slave, because many have the attitude that once you consent to being one - you no longer have any control over your destiny, what happens to you, that blanket consent is a given, limits are decided for you etc..... i have no interest in a relationshop of this sort. That doesn't mean at all that i can't submit to the utmost of my ability and go 110% in giving what i an capable of giving - and to me that is the key issue here. i would loose respect for any master that pushed me beyond my capability just to prove i was his property. Push me on things i don't care for or soft limits yes -push my hard ones and all you will ever get is the view of my ass as i walk out the door on you.

< Message edited by velvetears -- 6/10/2007 6:33:19 PM >

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RE: Consent vs Doubts - 6/10/2007 6:39:55 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Regardless, consent is only good up to the moment of withdrawal of consent. People like to talk about blanket consent which is only given once, the truth is though that it's a fantasy. Human beings have the right to withdraw consent.

Actually, advance health directives establish precedent for unwithdrawable prior consent. It may even be possible to do something about that legally, though I'm not familiar enough with US law to comment on that. In Norway, you can take it pretty damn far if you have it in writing, as has been established by legal precedent.

Just because the CM ToS doesn't let people say they use forced compliance doesn't mean that none of us do.

quote:

Some may "feel" as though they can't, and I can certainly understand that...but they really can

And I'd point out that battered spouses run back to the abusive partner all the time, without ever having consented. Don't underestimate the effects of mental bondage, even without intentional reinforcement (which is also possible).

quote:

and anyone who pushes past the point that consent is withdrawn is guilty of coercion.

Your point being?

No offense intended, I'm just curious as to where the problem is.

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 20

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