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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 8:10:58 AM   
stella40


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From: London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Let's do some math:



Okay.

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Average time on death row (17.5)



My figure for the average time on Death Row is 10.2 years. My own figure is 11.3 years on the basis of actual times spent on Death Row of everyone from Gary Gilmore to Robert Charles Comer in Arizona.

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Ain't math beautiful?



It certainly is when you're being creative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

Note the assumption that it costs $34150 per year to house an inmate.



This is what gets me about you pro-death penalty people. You're so full of assumptions.

My figure to house a Death Row prisoner for a year is $18,262.50

That's $50 a day. I get my figures from websites like the Texas Department for Criminal Justice, Alabama Department of Corrections, Oklahoma Department of Corrections, etc.

Nice try though, and I guess it sure looked pretty.

< Message edited by stella40 -- 6/13/2007 8:13:04 AM >

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 8:32:44 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		.......a toaster has a finite possibility of killing me. The justice system (where the death penalty exists) also has a finite possibility of killing me. However the former kills me by accident as it is an inanimate object. The latter kills me deliberately because there are minds within the justice system driving it. To conflate the two is a pure piece of fruit non-recognition (apple/orange error).

(edited for damn laptop keyboard spelling errors)

< Message edited by philosophy -- 6/13/2007 8:33:58 AM >

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 8:34:41 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

...The latter kills me deliberately because there are minds within the justice system driving it.


And egos.

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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 8:36:31 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I still cannot believe for the life of me (pun meant) that you take such a mercantile approach, not only because your calculations are highly questionable, but also because they smack of (pun meant) complete inhumanity.

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:04:09 AM   
selfbnd411


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella40
Nice try though, and I guess it sure looked pretty.


I hasten to add that I used the numbers given to me by a prior anti-death penalty poster.  Numbers that came from an anti-death penalty website, btw.

Nice try though.

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:08:54 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		 A 'sooper seeekrit' anti death penalty website?

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Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:12:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I still cannot believe for the life of me (pun meant) that you take such a mercantile approach, not only because your calculations are highly questionable, but also because they smack of (pun meant) complete inhumanity.


He does not want to deal with the fact that his approach smacks of kill em all and let God sort them out mentality. His approach is a rubber stamp that shortens time to execution.. I would refer him to this site

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

I would also have him understand that many cases that did not involve DNA, but instead rely on eye witness testimony are an even further travesty of justice... I would refer him to this site

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Accuracy-of-Eye-Witness-Testimony-and-Its-Flaws&id=328261

Then there are the issues of racism inherent in the system

http://www.counterpunch.org/deathpenalty.html

And then there is the isssue of inadequate representation of death penalty cases refered to the public defenders who do not have adequate resources to defend such people

http://www.aclu.org/capital/unequal/10390pub20031008.html

To fix some of the above inequities requires money to do so. What selfbnd is advocating is making the death penalty cheaper to impose, which basically means even more loss of innocent life. I am of the opinion that if you are going to take someone's life, you had better make damn sure you got it right, otherwise you really are no better than those who you seek to impose the death penalty on... that is my opinion. Now selfbnd may wiggle out and say that this is unfair to say, it has nothing to do with "morals or ethics", but it really does, no matter how much he tries to backpedal on this thread. In fact the most immoral argument one can make for the death penalty is it saves a fucking few bucks, we are talking about life and death.. not dollars and cents.



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(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:16:00 AM   
selfbnd411


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

He does not want to deal with the fact that his approach smacks of kill em all and let God sort them out mentality. His approach is a rubber stamp that shortens time to execution.. I would refer him to this site



I respected your right to believe what you feel.  I challenge you to respect my right to believe what I think.

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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:22:40 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411


I respected your right to believe what you feel.  I challenge you to respect my right to believe what I think.


..is this meant to be a subtle insult? i.e. those who support the death penalty think about it, those who oppose it just listen to their emotions? If so, it is a cheap shot.

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:24:03 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not respect certain beliefs, why should I respect beliefs that lead people who put a dollar tag on innocent human life? Now if I misrepresented your views and you are not in fact untroubled that saving money on death row inmates will indeed cause the amount of innocent people to be executed exponentially, well you should communicate that. Otherwise I am pretty comfortable with the way I have characterized your views

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:24:36 AM   
selfbnd411


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
A 'sooper seeekrit' anti death penalty website?



Fast reply?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1073485/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

Maybe start there and then post?

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:26:53 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411


I respected your right to believe what you feel.  I challenge you to respect my right to believe what I think.


..is this meant to be a subtle insult? i.e. those who support the death penalty think about it, those who oppose it just listen to their emotions? If so, it is a cheap shot.


He refuses to address the innocence question and all the inequities within the system that make it flawed... the last resort is to paint me as being overly emotional.. but the fact remains the death penalty is full of inherent problems.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:27:53 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411


I respected your right to believe what you feel.  I challenge you to respect my right to believe what I think.


..is this meant to be a subtle insult? i.e. those who support the death penalty think about it, those who oppose it just listen to their emotions? If so, it is a cheap shot.
 
I am glad it wasn't just me that noticed that.
 
Peace
the.dark.


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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:31:26 AM   
selfbnd411


Posts: 598
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		Alrightey, let's add some humanity to my calculations.  Using my lowest estimate, it saves at least $600,000 to execute a convicted murderer.  Enough money to:

Give a poor family a $1,000 a month subsidy for 50 years.
Give full tuition scholarships to 50 low income students to attend the California State University for 4 years.
Give 300 senior citizens a $2000 grant to cover the cost of Medigap health care coverage.
Purchase history textbooks for 12,000 students.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I still cannot believe for the life of me (pun meant) that you take such a mercantile approach, not only because your calculations are highly questionable, but also because they smack of (pun meant) complete inhumanity.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:39:52 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		How much money would be saved by executing all criminals, regardless of actual offence committed?
If we base a defence of the death penalty on economic grounds then it is perfectly logical to extend that argument to the whole judicial system.
Clearly this would lead to ethical questions, but if we reject any form of ethical dimension to the death penalty as some form of quiet hysteria, then these are easily overcome.
Selfbnd, you seem unwilling to accept that some of us oppose the death penalty from an intellectual standpoint, which means our arguments do have some merit even if you don't agree with them. Your position is, to my mind, a really good example of 'the thin end of the wedge'. Whether its the economic element or the acceptable losses idea both principles cut across the concept of justice. Once a judicial system forgets about justice then it has crossed a line.

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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:41:31 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
A 'sooper seeekrit' anti death penalty website?



Fast reply?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1073485/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

Maybe start there and then post?



Too little, too late. You are the one who posted without backing it up, and producing the evidence after being called on your omission is your problem, not mine.

As previously noted by others, you already have worked very hard to give yourself a reputation for playing fast and loose with numbers, cites, definitions, and facts, and as I have pointed out, you  manufacture positions that others do not hold and then challenge them to support your straw men. I suspect that personal insults are very close to being the next arrow in your quiver

Such sophomoric behavior no doubt goes over well in high school debate clubs, but don't hold your breath waiting for everyone to fall for it here.

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Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:43:41 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Oh please, let's not diffuse the issue and start another debate on how best to spend your hard-earned tax dollars!

Since anyone with half a brain will agree that figures can be manipulated to feed two sides of an argument, I really believe you should let that one die (haha).

Correct me if I'm wrong: you actually wish to live in a society that condones the execution of those convicted of crimes that warranty it, even though that very premise implies that innocents can die in the process. So... I reiterate: you would die at the hands of the executioner with a smile on your face whilst being innocent of the crime you'd be accused of, because you would know you are dying for a worthy cause. Right?

In such a case, do you argue for the right of the few of us who do NOT wish to die in such a manner to choose not to? And do you agree that this means the death penalty has to go, because there is no in-between?

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 6/13/2007 9:47:42 AM >

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:48:14 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I'd like to think it's more like "We have the morals we can afford".

If you can afford to warehouse mentally-defective-axe-murders, then you warehouse them. If you can't afford it, it's the hemp fandango.



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(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 9:50:28 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

So... I reiterate: you would die at the hands of the executioner with a smile on your face whilst being innocent of the crime you'd be accused of, because you would know you are dying for a worthy cause. Right?



I can't let that one go either... going to such an extreme and demanding that it be adopted by someone who is advocating a general position does little to advance a discussion.

If adherents of the death penalty have to embrace the worst case scenario above, shouldn't their opponents have to claim that they would enjoy being murdered by someone who  was released due to a lack of captial punishment option?

Or we could drop the extremes, and address the systemic problems that lead to death row, its shortcomings, and possible solutions.


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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/13/2007 10:03:13 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
Or we could drop the extremes, and address the systemic problems that lead to death row, its shortcomings, and possible solutions.


......the thing about the death penalty is that, by its unique and extreme nature, it tends to polarise thinking about it. However, to my mind, the judicial system is one of those things that ought to be led by a sense of ethics and morality before cash concerns.

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Profile   Post #: 200
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