RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 6:43:46 AM)

Funny, here in Canada we have no death penalty (haven't had for a long time) and yet we have less murders per capita than the US....but then again we wouldn't want to ruin a good arguement with facts



Alumbrado -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 7:17:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella40

I'm still waiting for the study which claims that the free market economy with the introduction of the more competitive employment market, spread of poverty and promotion of consumerism causes crime but I'm not holding my breath..


Good thing, because studies examining those factors were  authored many years ago... Lynch and Chiricos come to mind...[;)]




.



kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 7:20:54 AM)

(Irony is always good :-)  )



selfbnd411 -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 7:23:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
The prof started by doing a survey: who was in favour of it (20 students), who was against it (9 students), who didn't know either way (6 students).

We all wrote down our arguments, got together in little groups and discussed the subject. After an hour, we did the survey all over again.


Don't be so sure.  I'm a college instructor and I can tell you that my students are very persistent in trying to determine what my views are.  Then they adjust themselves accordingly (at least until the grades are in!).  It's really amusing to me, because they assume that since most of my colleagues are strong Lefties I am too, but I'm actually a FDR/Clinton Centrist.

Today's students have spent years learning how to take tests, how to read multiple choice questions, and how to work the system [;)]



mnottertail -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 7:23:52 AM)

can you cite a few studies on that?

Geo. Gallup



Arpig -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 7:30:02 AM)

Hey Ron...glad to see the Tornados didn't get you



mnottertail -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 7:35:06 AM)

recent studies prove that tornados don't dare fuck with me.

Thanks Arpig!!!!


Ron 



gooddogbenji -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 7:39:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, more than half of those under sentence of death have been white.


I think you're trying to prove him wrong, by saying it's balanced.

What are the relative populations?  10% black?  Even 20%? 

So even if there are more white people on death row (I did not check any facts) there are still per capita more black people.

Yours,


benji

PS:  Don't feel bad.  It wasn't the worst argument ever.  Another poster used the N word on here yesterday.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 8:09:22 AM)

Once again someone else got to say what I meant first, but let's take a closer look at your own numbers, Alumbrado:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/drracetab.htm

Do you think the ratio of whites to blacks in America is 1805:1372?  Put it this way, if you do, you have some more research to do.

And I think it's borderline outrageous that the Department of Justice of the United States of America would make a statement like this on its own website:

quote:

Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, more than half of those under sentence of death have been white.


That means they're familiar with the arguments about racial imbalance among death-row inmates, and are doing their damnedest to try to hoodwink credulous people like Alumbrado.  Evidently it works.

Edited to add: favesclava, I'm not really a honkytonk cracker.  I just do a good job of impersonating one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

Yeah, I said it.  All you death-penalty fetishists should go and look at the percentage of death-row inmates who oh just happen to be black.


Hmmmm... why don't we just do that very thing?

quote:

  
Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, more than half of those under sentence of death have been white.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/drrace.htm





Alumbrado -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 8:44:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, more than half of those under sentence of death have been white.


I think you're trying to prove him wrong, by saying it's balanced.

What are the relative populations?  10% black?  Even 20%? 

So even if there are more white people on death row (I did not check any facts) there are still per capita more black people.

Yours,


benji

PS:  Don't feel bad.  It wasn't the worst argument ever.  Another poster used the N word on here yesterday.


Don't worry...I'm not going to feel bad about an argument I never made... you on the other hand, should be ashamed for coming up with it...[:D]

As far as death penalty statistics go, it is an oft cited myth that the majority of people on death row are black, or non-white.

OTOH, the prison population in the US is overwhelmingly non-white, way out of proportion to the entire population.

So it is worth reading the UCR and taking a stab at figuring out why the system churns in such a skewed manner.... hence the link ( sans argument).



kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 8:47:11 AM)

There were no test or questions. It was an inaugural, informal gathering before the discussion on the death penalty occurred. And it wasn't at college, but at the lycee, final year (yes, French education's rather sophisticated lol, and it's compulsory to take philosophy for everyone in one's final year, though a few crazy people choose it as their main subject).

This is what happened: the arguments against the death penalty are so powerful, the majority of those in favour changed their mind.

I think that's rather telling, and reassuring [:)]

PS: and what on earth is a college instructor?



XXXtremeMaster -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 8:50:04 AM)

The death penalty may not deter others from commiting a crime, however, it will sure as hell deter THAT individual from commiting another crime.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 8:51:23 AM)

Welcome to the party.  You're about two days late.  It doesn't deter a fucking thing when you execute the wrong person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: XXXtremeMaster

The death penalty may not deter others from commiting a crime, however, it will sure as hell deter THAT individual from commiting another crime.



slaveboyforyou -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 8:53:36 AM)

Like I said in the other thread about the death penalty, I would support the removal of the death penalty if it were replaced with a system of exile.  We get a constitutional amendment passed that removes the citizenship and rights of the most violent offenders.  We set up a gulag, Devil's Island type prison on a uninhabited island in the South Pacific.  The United States has a lot of islands that would be suitable for this.  These islands are going to no use, and are essentially places that birds stop by to shit on.  You surround the island with mines and prohibit all ships from coming within 20 miles of it.  The exiled criminals are not allowed to have any contact with the outside world and essentially cease to exist.  We airdrop rations to them once a month and leave them to their own devices.  Among ancient societies, the most feared punishment was exile and shunning.  It would be a great deterent. 



selfbnd411 -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:00:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Welcome to the party.  You're about two days late.  It doesn't deter a fucking thing when you execute the wrong person.



How many innocent people have been executed in the last, oh, 40 years?  Can you cite a single example?

I'll cite an example, but it's not going to come out the way you'd like:

DNA tests confirm man executed in 1992 was guilty
By Richard Willing, USA TODAY
DNA test results announced Thursday confirmed the guilt of Roger Coleman, a Virginia coal miner executed in 1992 for the rape and murder of his sister-in-law.

...

Coleman's supporters, led by James McCloskey, director of a New Jersey-based prison ministry, said they were certain the DNA tests would be the first scientific proof that an innocent man had been executed in the USA. They said Virginia courts had barred Coleman from presenting evidence that a neighbor committed the crime.

Instead, the police lab in Ontario, Canada, that performed the test found only a 1-in-19-million chance that the blood and semen found at the crime scene was not Coleman's.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-12-dna-virginia_x.htm



kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:03:15 AM)

I don't see how executing the wrong person is a deterrent for anything, except perhaps for being alive.

Ever considered that? That you get convicted of a crime you didn't commit? And that they happily send you to your electrifying death?

How can you trust the judge and jury to make the right decision regarding's someone's guilt after the way people ranted and raved about the whole Paris Hilton incident? I find it amusing the moral majority is yet again advocating in favour of a supposedly corrupt and deficient justice system straight after they berrated it for being a failure.



kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:04:42 AM)

The French did that. It was called the 'Bagne'. Look it up carefully, and tell me that's a humane system that works in the interests of justice (many people were sent off to their deaths in French Guyana, only to be found innocent later).



gooddogbenji -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:07:04 AM)

Once again, only if you get the right guy.

Yours,


benji



Alumbrado -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:13:52 AM)

quote:

How many innocent people have been executed in the last, oh, 40 years?  Can you cite a single example?


Without having been present during the crime, or lacking X-ray vision, time travel, or telepathy, none of us are going to 'know' absolutely who is or isn't an innocent person, so I'm not sure what your point is...
The death penalty doesn't deal in actual proven innocence or guilt, it deals in the outcome of processes that approximate determining such outcomes.
. 
But we can certainly find multiple cases of people on death row whose circumstances when re-examined rose to the level of reasonable doubt ( i.e. the legal standard for lack of guilt, or presumed innocence).

IIRC, the Innocence Project has identified people who were executed before their cases could be subjected to newer, more accurate DNA testing.



MistressNoName -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:17:18 AM)

"Studies" also say that "US confidence in Capital Punishment is Eroding."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070609/ts_alt_afp/usjusticeexecution_070609194625;_ylt=Aq35EUhH86IOWoq7th1ighoEcP8A


MNN



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