RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime

RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:19:27 AM)
quote: The French did that. It was called the 'Bagne'. Look it up carefully, and tell me that's a humane system that works in the interests of justice (many people were sent off to their deaths in French Guyana, only to be found innocent later). The French did do that. French Guyana is where Devil's Island was. There was a popular movie called, 'Papillon' based on the autobiography of Henri Charrière. There is a big difference between that system and what I proposed. The French sent political prisoners there. I have not suggested sending anyone there but the most extreme of violent criminals. Besides what you think, the death penalty is not handed out in most homicides. It's rarely used, and it is reserved for heinous crimes. A system of exile would be an effective deterent and punishment for these types of criminals. There would be no more killing. It is a statement to criminals like this, that says we wash our hands of you. You are no longer welcome in our society, and we banish you from among us. We won't stoop to your level and kill you, but we won't allow you to have the benefits of living amongst us.

selfbnd411 -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:21:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado Without having been present during the crime, or lacking X-ray vision, time travel, or telepathy, none of us are going to 'know' absolutely who is or isn't an innocent person, so I'm not sure what your point is... You can't cite DNA exonerations to support your claim and then ignore the fact that not a single executed convict has been proven to be innocent by DNA evidence. So 100-200 people have been exonerated? That's fantastic imo. The system works. As time goes on and we get into murder cases from the mid 1990s, the accuracy rate will only skyrocket.

MistressNoName -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:32:18 AM)
quote: As far as death penalty statistics go, it is an oft cited myth that the majority of people on death row are black, or non-white. Alumbrado, I don't know who you think has been citing this...but the statement is not that there are more blacks on death row than whites...in terms of actual numbers...the statement that is oft made is that with respect to the US population, there is a disproportionate number of blacks on death row than whites. In other words, there seem to be more blacks, proportionally, who get sentenced to death than whites. And on a side note, I personally find it interesting that when I hear in the news of someone being freed from deathrow because of new evidence exonerating them from any crime, more times then not, it ends up being a black man. MNN

Alumbrado -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:37:16 AM)
Since I haven't made any such claims, your juvenile debate tactics are a waste of time.

Alumbrado -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 9:41:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressNoName quote: As far as death penalty statistics go, it is an oft cited myth that the majority of people on death row are black, or non-white. Alumbrado, I don't know who you think has been citing this...but the statement is not that there are more blacks on death row than whites...in terms of actual numbers...the statement that is oft made is that with respect to the US population, there is a disproportionate number of blacks on death row than whites. In other words, there seem to be more blacks, proportionally, who get sentenced to death than whites. And on a side note, I personally find it interesting that when I hear in the news of someone being freed from deathrow because of new evidence exonerating them from any crime, more times then not, it ends up being a black man. MNN Or, you could address what I actually said.

kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 10:18:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: The French did that. It was called the 'Bagne'. Look it up carefully, and tell me that's a humane system that works in the interests of justice (many people were sent off to their deaths in French Guyana, only to be found innocent later). The French did do that. The French sent political prisoners there. Absolutely, and absolutely wrong. You seem to imply (and correct me if I'm wrong) that only political prisonners were sent there: that's not the case. You were perhaps thinking of Capt. Dreyfus, who was wrongly convicted of high treason and ended up there (mind you, only for five years, sic!). Unfortunately, many petty criminals were sent to l'Ile du Diable (quite a few for stealing bread), and even worse, like Dreyfus, many innocents spent some time there. There you go: quote: A une grosse heure de bateau de Kourou, cet endroit aujourd'hui paradisiaque, fut un véritable enfer pour des milliers de bagnards qui y ont séjourné entre 1852 et 1954, date de fermeture définitive du bagne en Guyane. Environ 60 000 hommes et femmes ont en effet traversé l'océan à fonds de cales, pour arriver à St Laurent du Maroni et être dispersés dans les divers bagnes de Guyane. I don't believe exhile to be a solution. It might have worked in Greece, but we are far less civilised nowadays.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 11:00:27 AM)
quote: Absolutely, and absolutely wrong. You seem to imply (and correct me if I'm wrong) that only political prisonners were sent there: that's not the case. You were perhaps thinking of Capt. Dreyfus, who was wrongly convicted of high treason and ended up there (mind you, only for five years, sic!). Unfortunately, many petty criminals were sent to l'Ile du Diable (quite a few for stealing bread), and even worse, like Dreyfus, many innocents spent some time there. There you go: I did not imply that ONLY political prisoners were sent there. I know that the French sent petty criminals there. The French are notorious for having a Draconian legal system. I never suggested once in my post that petty criminals would be subject to a harsh punishment like exile. I specifically said that such a system should be reserved for extremely violent criminals. I don't have any sympathy for rapists, serial killers, violent pedophiles, and the like. I don't understand why anyone would have sympathy for people like that. I understand that innocent people are sometimes convicted of crimes they did not commit. However what is your solution for that? Do we perpetually allow criminals to appeal their sentences? How much evidence do you need to prove someone is guilty? I don't want violent criminals to have the chance to cause more harm. Locking them up in prisons is not a solution. A few years ago, a group of violent prisoners escaped from a prison in Texas. Most of them were doing life sentences for violent crimes. After their escape they robbed a sporting goods store to finance their new life and during the course of the robbery murdered a police officer. They shot him several times than proceeded to run him over with a car. Life imprisonment did not stop them. If you want another example, I give you Ted Bundy. While on trial for murder in Colorodo, he escaped twice. He was already doing a lengthy sentence in Utah for kidnapping. He was a suspect in several murders of young women in the Pacific northwest. The first time he was caught and sent back to jail. The second time he escaped and made his way to Florida. He murdered several young women, including a 12 year old girl. Again, prison did not stop him from commiting crimes. In addition to the possibility of escape is the danger of violent inmates murdering and brutalizing other prisoners and staff while in prison. It is not acceptable to me that non-violent prisoners have to be subjected to the brutal rule of prison gangs, rapists, and predators. These kinds of criminals should not be among us.

Sinergy -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 11:30:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: The French did that. It was called the 'Bagne'. Look it up carefully, and tell me that's a humane system that works in the interests of justice (many people were sent off to their deaths in French Guyana, only to be found innocent later). The French did do that. French Guyana is where Devil's Island was. There was a popular movie called, 'Papillon' based on the autobiography of Henri Charrière. There is a big difference between that system and what I proposed. The French sent political prisoners there. I have not suggested sending anyone there but the most extreme of violent criminals. Besides what you think, the death penalty is not handed out in most homicides. It's rarely used, and it is reserved for heinous crimes. A system of exile would be an effective deterent and punishment for these types of criminals. There would be no more killing. It is a statement to criminals like this, that says we wash our hands of you. You are no longer welcome in our society, and we banish you from among us. We won't stoop to your level and kill you, but we won't allow you to have the benefits of living amongst us. Henri Charriere was not a political prisoner. If I remember correctly, he was convicted and sentenced for forging bank notes. Sinergy

kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 11:36:55 AM)
I'm a member of Amnesty International (surprise, surprise). I will quote that venerable institution now: quote: The Death Penalty Defies International Human Rights Standards The Death Penalty Disregards Mental Illness The Death Penalty Claims Innocent Lives The Death Penalty is Racially Biased The Death Penalty is Arbitrary and Unfair The Death Penalty Costs More The Death Penalty Violates the Rights of Foreign Nationals The Death Penalty Can Never be Voluntary The Death Penalty Is Not a Deterrent www.amnestyusa.org

mnottertail -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 11:50:50 AM)
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. Anatole France, The Red Lily, 1894, chapter 7 French novelist (1844 - 1924) coincidence? I don't think so. Le Dauphin

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:00:24 PM)
quote: I'm a member of Amnesty International (surprise, surprise). I will quote that venerable institution now: What do you suggest we do with people who commit violent crimes? I understand that many people have a problem with the death penalty. But they never propose any alternative. They act like everyone on death row is innocent. When California executed Stanley "Tookie" Williams, I never heard anyone say what the alternative punishment should be. They all assumed he was innocent and had reformed himself of any bad behavior just because he helped write a couple of children's books. Amnesty international and other anti-death penalty groups seem to think all convicted criminals got a raw deal. They never take into account the people who have been victimized by these predators. I don't buy into this idea that the criminal justice system is supposed to reform criminals. It is there to provide punishment and to seperate criminals from society to hinder them from causing anymore harm. I do not care if they have found Jesus or that they teach reading to other inmates. The only person that can forgive them of their crimes is the victim. Unfortunately they are not alive anymore and can't share their opinion with us.

Guilty1974 -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:04:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: selfbnd411 What gets little notice, however, is a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument — whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer. Interesting, especially considering that most studies find just about the opposite. But even if this study is right, the simple fact that there are countries without the death penalty and much lower crime rates than the US indicates that there are probably some other factors that might be much more efficient in preventing crime than the death penalty. Factors that are less morally loaded, without the risk of executing innocent people, without racial bias, and likely even a lot cheaper. I prefer those if you don't mind. Roel

kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:07:33 PM)
Ron, your point escapes me... but it might be blonde brain syndrome striking again. What's not a coincidence? That A. France thought the rich and poor were equal under the law - and that's a coincidence of what? Or wot?

mnottertail -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:07:47 PM)
I think you take a bridge too far.......life imprisionment doesn't seem to hurt guys like charlie manson. We know where he's sleeping tonight. I think that to some degree the prison overcrowding could be looked at, seems to me that the gestapo is sending more and more people to prison based on the comfort from fear factor..... Hit a cop? Part of the job, sonny---was in my day. I mean does the whole fuckoree have to be flawed? Ok, death penalty deters, prison does not deter. Get rid of prisons and summarily execute the people on the street. Some of the entire legal system and judicial systems need big fuckin overhaul and we need to get off the current insecurities of the populace and get back to majestic equality.

MistressNoName -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:16:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: MistressNoName quote: As far as death penalty statistics go, it is an oft cited myth that the majority of people on death row are black, or non-white. Alumbrado, I don't know who you think has been citing this...but the statement is not that there are more blacks on death row than whites...in terms of actual numbers...the statement that is oft made is that with respect to the US population, there is a disproportionate number of blacks on death row than whites. In other words, there seem to be more blacks, proportionally, who get sentenced to death than whites. And on a side note, I personally find it interesting that when I hear in the news of someone being freed from deathrow because of new evidence exonerating them from any crime, more times then not, it ends up being a black man. MNN Or, you could address what I actually said. Well, I think I did...since that was an exact quote of yours that I was addressing.

Sinergy -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:25:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou They all assumed he was innocent Incorrect. He admitted what he had done which happened to be what he was found guilty of by a jury of his peers. quote: and had reformed himself of any bad behavior just because he helped write a couple of children's books. He had reformed himself. This was not my objection to him being killed. Had he been killed immediately he might never have written those children's books which might bring somebody back from settling into a life of crime. Maybe that person goes off and cures the common cold. We dont know. One of my objections to the death penalty is that the logic is idiotic. One does not teach children to not hit other children by hitting them. quote: Amnesty international and other anti-death penalty groups seem to think all convicted criminals got a raw deal. Well, I think you are painting a group of people with a generalized statement. There is ample evidence that any number of criminals did get a raw deal. (George Rodriguez, Josiah Sutton, etc) There are ample examples of criminals who got what they deserved. (Richard Ramirez, Timothy McVeigh, etc) I have issues with California's Three Strikes Law because a person can spend their life in prison for 3 non-violent drug offenses. quote: They never take into account the people who have been victimized by these predators. I don't buy into this idea that the criminal justice system is supposed to reform criminals. It is there to provide punishment and to seperate criminals from society to hinder them from causing anymore harm. I do not care if they have found Jesus or that they teach reading to other inmates. The only person that can forgive them of their crimes is the victim. Unfortunately they are not alive anymore and can't share their opinion with us. [sarcasm] Yes, I agree with you. It sucks when a person victimized by a crime is not around to forgive the person who didnt kill them for the crime that person did not commit against them. [/sarcasm] Dont bogart that joint, my friend. Theoretically, punishment for a crime is supposed to reform the individual. I dont tend to think this actually happens for the most part, but I am not sure state-sponsored murder is a workable solution. I tend to view prison time as the island we send criminals to where they cannot commit more crimes. People are fallible, while there really is no way to give the person their life back when they are determined to be innocent, they can be taken out of segregation from society and allowed to live the rest of their life. Killing that person is a one way trip, and I dont think the possible benefits one gains from executing prisoners is worth the cost of executing an innocent person. My usual response is I assume that if you end up being wrongly convicted and sentenced to death for the crime you did not commit, you will stand by your belief in the essential logic of the Death Penalty and not waste the taxpayers money trying to save your own life. I suspect you wont. It is one of those self-centered things where as long as it is not happening to you, you are totally fine with it. Sinergy

kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou What do you suggest we do with people who commit violent crimes? I understand that many people have a problem with the death penalty. But they never propose any alternative. Well, you never asked me whether I thought of alternatives, but now that you seem to be, I shall answer you. First of all, I believe in a reform of our trial by jury system. I don't believe the average Jo Guy knows nearly enough to be able to decide on another human being's guilt or innocence (I am waiting for the flames after this). I think it's crucial to think of ways to declog the prisons, and release those prisonners that are doing time for non-violent time. quote: They act like everyone on death row is innocent. When California executed Stanley "Tookie" Williams, I never heard anyone say what the alternative punishment should be. They all assumed he was innocent and had reformed himself of any bad behavior just because he helped write a couple of children's books. Amnesty international and other anti-death penalty groups seem to think all convicted criminals got a raw deal. They never take into account the people who have been victimized by these predators. Show me a concrete example of this please. quote: I don't buy into this idea that the criminal justice system is supposed to reform criminals. It is there to provide punishment and to seperate criminals from society to hinder them from causing anymore harm. I do not care if they have found Jesus or that they teach reading to other inmates. The only person that can forgive them of their crimes is the victim. Unfortunately they are not alive anymore and can't share their opinion with us. That's the main argument for state murder. It rests on gut instincts and the need for retribution. It appeals to our basest need to wash blood with blood. There are some criminals who are 'unreformable': they never do get out anyway, and are usually found in mental wards, because they are insane. For those who did kill and were mens sana in corpore sano (though probably under the influence of drink, drugs, or both) I doubt very much the thought of the death penalty acted as a deterrent. Same for "crimes of passion" (actually a criminal category in France). I believe we have to work at constructing a fairer, more humane society where violence isn't so prevalent. There IS a direct correlation between the death penalty and violent crime: those states that reinstated legalised murder have seen the incidence of violent crime shoot up as a consequence.

kittinSol -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:34:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Ok, death penalty deters, prison does not deter. Get rid of prisons and summarily execute the people on the street. Obviously, we disagree big time on that one, Ronnie. quote: Some of the entire legal system and judicial systems need big fuckin overhaul and we need to get off the current insecurities of the populace and get back to majestic equality. Here however, we agree on a large scale. [sm=argue.gif]

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:35:30 PM)
quote: Incorrect. He admitted what he had done which happened to be what he was found guilty of by a jury of his peers. He did not admit to it, and that was a big reason that Schwarzenegger refused to grant him clemency. He admitted to being a member of a violent gang and to committing other crimes. He was convicted of murdering a young convenience store clerk, and 2 Asian immigrants working the night shift at a motel. He professed his innocence of the crimes he was convicted of all the way up to the execution. I don't think the books he contributed to ever deterred anyone from joining a gang. Even if they did, I don't care. He murdered 3 innocent people. Who knows what these people might have done if they hadn't had their lives taken from them.

Sinergy -> RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime (6/11/2007 12:38:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: Incorrect. He admitted what he had done which happened to be what he was found guilty of by a jury of his peers. He did not admit to it, and that was a big reason that Schwarzenegger refused to grant him clemency. He admitted to being a member of a violent gang and to committing other crimes. He was convicted of murdering a young convenience store clerk, and 2 Asian immigrants working the night shift at a motel. He professed his innocence of the crimes he was convicted of all the way up to the execution. I don't think the books he contributed to ever deterred anyone from joining a gang. Even if they did, I don't care. He murdered 3 innocent people. Who knows what these people might have done if they hadn't had their lives taken from them. I stand corrected. Yes, we dont know what those 3 people he murdered would have done. However, I dont see much difference between him rotting in jail for the rest of his life or being murdered, apart from the costs. I suspect more money was spent killing him than would be spent keeping him alive. However, I stand by my other statements about the death penalty. Sinergy

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875