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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 7:45:59 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

What crime did you commit?

Sinergy



      How about a nice spree killing with an axe?  No.  Wait... that was a dream. 

      Does it really matter?  Pick a capital offense and I suppose I could hypothetically be wrongly convicted of it.  Like I said, I think it's an appropriate sentence far more often than it's applied.


This makes no sense.

quote:



  In the hypothetical you raise, I'd fight to the last, exhaust every appeal, scream at the injustice and still believe death was the appropriate punishment for the crime. 



I asked what crime you committed.

You did not commit one, but you are being put to death anyway.

You still think death was appropriate.

Think twice, post once.

Sinergy

edited to add a u

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 6/11/2007 7:47:51 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 7:48:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
It' not hard to answer and the premise is almost annoyingly smug.
...
In the hypothetical you raise, I'd fight to the last, exhaust every appeal, scream at the injustice and still believe death was the appropriate punishment for the crime. 


The premise is "almost annoyingly smug" because your answer is simply unbelievable. I just don't believe that would be your actual response under the hypothetical circumstances.

You remind me of one of those hawkish chest-beaters in congress that will never see even 5 minutes of wartime combat. You talk the talk, but can't walk the walk.




          And your rejection of the idea that a moral conviction can take precedence over personal circumstance strikes me as incredibly shallow.  Or have you decided that speeding tickets are wrong because you got one?

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 7:51:49 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Already posted, #16 of this thread -

IMO, it is too hard to prove a negative, too many on death row who have been proven innocent by DNA testing and no way to really know how many crimes are NOT committed because a criminal was afraid of the consequences.



quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Sources against the Death Penalty also abound, to list just a few -



But those are other people's writings.  Other people's ideas.  I can google those.  I can't google Vendeval's ideas on why she opposes the death penalty.  Not unless you post them!



_____________________________

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 7:52:10 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

         And your rejection of the idea that a moral conviction can take precedence over personal circumstance strikes me as incredibly shallow.  Or have you decided that speeding tickets are wrong because you got one?



So I was correct in my statement that you would willingly allow yourself to be put to death knowing that the moral conviction that the death penalty is a good thing overrides the fact that you are being killed for a crime you did not commit.

I dont know whether to applaud your moral stature or call the men in white coats to take you to the funny farm.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:08:06 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

This makes no sense.




       It makes perfect sense.  You just aren't seeing it.  A horrible crime has been committed.  The person convicted of that crime is sentenced to be executed.  I think the punishment is appropriate to the crime.

     I already have issues with a process that can railroad people for any offense.  Those will get a major motherfucking increase in volume during our hypothetical, but they are seperate issues.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:09:36 PM   
selfbnd411


Posts: 598
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Status: offline 		I don't think this is terribly productive.  I would rather see people compose their own nuanced positions rather than engage in a futile game of tit for tat.

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:16:41 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

but they are seperate issues.



I agree.

Please stop trying to change the subject.

Sinergy 

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:20:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I dont know whether to applaud your moral stature or call the men in white coats to take you to the funny farm.

Sinergy



        Go with applause if those are your only options.    You think I couldn't tell the men in white coats exactly what they needed to hear to leave empty handed?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:30:10 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

but they are seperate issues.



I agree.

Please stop trying to change the subject.

Sinergy 



       Then stop asking questions that assume apples are oranges.  Not wanting the wrong people punished has nothing to do with believing a punishment is too harsh. 

     

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:34:17 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

but they are seperate issues.



I agree.

Please stop trying to change the subject.

Sinergy 



      Then stop asking questions that assume apples are oranges.  Not wanting the wrong people punished has nothing to do with believing a punishment is too harsh. 

    


I never argued the punishment was too harsh.  Go back and review what I wrote.

I argued that an innocent person being killed invalidates the value of state sponsored murder for the body politic.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:37:23 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411

I don't think this is terribly productive.



       That depends entirely on what you are trying to produce, 411, and just how quickly you plan to have it finished.

     On topics like this, some play the long game.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:47:07 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Kinda jumped through here, but ..........

Originally I wanted to ask how many neurosureons and sociologists do you need to perform a study to find out that the death penalty works ? But I found something different on this, on the last page thusfar of this thread. DNA testing.

Wrongful convictions are a big big problem in this country, and I am all for executions, but in no way shape or form should we let these thugs in government into the process, at any level. When the state of Texas (under GW Bush I might add) won the right to knowingly execute an innocent Man in the Supreme Court, that is not only prima facie evidence that their agenda has nothing to do with justice, it is proof positive.

The Man was proven innocent, and the governor did not care. The execution took place. I am a bit surprised Amnesty International didn't get into that one, really. But I guess they,.like anyone else, only pick on certain people.

I am never going to Texas, I've heard of people in prison for five years for a joint. No thanks. I have found the cracks in the system here through which to slip. And frankly I want nothing to do with people who support tyrannical governments. Texas takes the cake on some things. If the People there want it that way there, fine, but stay away from my neck of the woods. Stay there and be happy.

Perhaps it is right that your friends and neighbors should be able to execute you. Perhaps. But the government has shown it's true colors and is not competent to hold such powers. How many times do they have to prove it to you ?

T

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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:51:15 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Wrongful convictions are a big big problem in this country, and I am all for executions, but in no way shape or form should we let these thugs in government into the process, at any level. When the state of Texas (under GW Bush I might add) won the right to knowingly execute an innocent Man in the Supreme Court, that is not only prima facie evidence that their agenda has nothing to do with justice, it is proof positive.



Cant wait to hear the running dog supporters of state sponsored murder try to explain this one away.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 8:58:15 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I argued that an innocent person being killed invalidates the value of state sponsored murder for the body politic.

Sinergy



       And I reject both your position, and your use of propagandist terminology.

       Your premise is flawed.  Would the incarceration of the wrong car thief invalidate prisons?  Would a sharp word to the wrong unruly ___ invalidate the authority of a parent?  This is nothing but a cheap appeal to emotion.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 9:41:33 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I argued that an innocent person being killed invalidates the value of state sponsored murder for the body politic.

Sinergy



      And I reject both your position, and your use of propagandist terminology.

      Your premise is flawed.  Would the incarceration of the wrong car thief invalidate prisons?  Would a sharp word to the wrong unruly ___ invalidate the authority of a parent?  This is nothing but a cheap appeal to emotion.


the parent gig is really mixing apples with watermelons but for the rest in a word yes it would invalidate it in a corrput system as that is the virtually the only way an innocent person will die.   in the event of a corrupt system as WE DO HAVE the death penalty shouold be abolished until such tie the system can empirically PROVE itself trustworthy with a long history of correct convictions.


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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 9:51:42 PM   
MrrPete


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Wrongful convictions are a big big problem in this country, and I am all for executions, but in no way shape or form should we let these thugs in government into the process, at any level. When the state of Texas (under GW Bush I might add) won the right to knowingly execute an innocent Man in the Supreme Court, that is not only prima facie evidence that their agenda has nothing to do with justice, it is proof positive.



Cant wait to hear the running dog supporters of state sponsored murder try to explain this one away.

Sinergy
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3472872.html

As usual there's more to the story. This is an indictment of those who work in the system not doing their job. Overzealous prosicutors using the justice system for theri own private agenda.

We the people have to rid the system of these people and we don't take the time to study the judges and DAs and then let others elect them and then bitch when they botch the job.

In my opinion the death penalty works fine as a deterent to crime The person put to death will NEVER, NEVER, EVER commit another crime. THAT's the deterent.


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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 9:55:46 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411
"To start, only 14 Americans who were once on death row have been exonerated by DNA evidence alone. The hordes of Americans wrongfully convicted exist primarily on Planet Hollywood. In the Winter 2005 Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, a group led by Samuel Gross, a law professor at the University of Michigan, published an exhaustive study of exonerations around the country from 1989 to 2003 in cases ranging from robbery to capital murder. They were able to document only 340 inmates who were eventually freed. (They counted cases where defendants were retried after an initial conviction and subsequently found not guilty as ''exonerations.'') Yet, despite the relatively small number his research came up with, Mr. Gross says he is certain that far more innocents languish undiscovered in prison.

So, let's give the professor the benefit of the doubt: let's assume that he understated the number of innocents by roughly a factor of 10, that instead of 340 there were 4,000 people in prison who weren't involved in the crime in any way. During that same 15 years, there were more than 15 million felony convictions across the country. That would make the error rate .027 percent -- or, to put it another way, a success rate of 99.973 percent."


Instead of fudging numbers why don't we use actual numbers? Let's compare the number of people executed in the US since the reinstatement of capital punishment versus those who were at one time convicted and sentenced to death but were later freed by being found not guilty on retrial or by being simply released because even the government could no longer justify imprisoning them.

1079 executions have occured as of Jun. 7 2007 since the 1976 reinstatement of the death penalty. For the sake of this calculation we will assume, almost definitely incorrectly, that all executed prisoners were truly guilty.

124 death row prisoners have been exonerated and released.under constitutional death penalty statutes enacted after 1972.

124/1079 = 0.1149 or roughly an error rate of 11.5%. Let that sink in. For every 9 persons put on death row 1 will eventually be released as innocent. Do you honestly think this system should be entrusted with life and death?

(in reply to selfbnd411)
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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 9:59:11 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
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Status: offline 		Have you ever been involved directly in the criminal justice system?
As a victim, as a criminal, as an eye-witness or innocent bystander?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/11/2007 10:07:12 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

As usual there's more to the story. This is an indictment of those who work in the system not doing their job. Overzealous prosicutors using the justice system for theri own private agenda.



[sarcasm]

Yes, the presence of overzealous prosecutors validate the murder of an innocent person.

[/sarcasm]

On the other hand, if the death penalty is outlawed, prosecutors fucking up wont result in the state sponsored murder of an innocent person.

The overzealous and incompetent prosecutors will NEVER, EVER kill another human being.

quote:



In my opinion the death penalty works fine as a deterent to crime The person put to death will NEVER, NEVER, EVER commit another crime. THAT's the deterent.



[sarcasm]

Even more so, the innocent person executed will never EVER commit a crime in the first place.

[/sarcasm]

Point taken.

And TheHeretic, it is an emotional position.  The argument that there could possibly be a rational reason why an innocent person should be put to death by the state is emotional, not rational, and is indicative of the same sort of mindset that suicide bombers or people flying jets into buildings have.  The rationale is that the ends justify the means, no matter how reprehensible those means are.

I made the point on another thread that one of the main problems Christians have with Muslims is the similarity of their worldviews and beliefs.   The same could be said about people who support the death penalty for people who murder people.  Your worldviews are a lot more in concurrence with theirs than they are different.

Sinergy

Added an e, deleted an s

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 6/11/2007 10:23:58 PM >

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Studes Say Death Penalty Deters Crime - 6/12/2007 10:42:51 AM   
philosophy


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"Then stop asking questions that assume apples are oranges.  Not wanting the wrong people punished has nothing to do with believing a punishment is too harsh."
" Would the incarceration of the wrong car thief invalidate prisons?  Would a sharp word to the wrong unruly ___ invalidate the authority of a parent?"

...i'm afraid you're the orange/apple swapper. The unique aspect to the death penalty is how utterly irrevocable it is. In all other sentences the possibility of succesful appeal exists, which brings with it the possibility of rebuilding a life. The death penalty negates this possibility.
It is not the authority of law that is being debated here........it is the nature of sanctions ordered by law under discusion. Given the potential fallibility of all systems should the sanctions ordered by such systems be capable of review or not? The death penalty prevents any meaningful review of a conviction.

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