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Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 6:51:36 AM

Trampler

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I am very much interested in the aspects of courtly love...I know the basic definition, but I would like to hear others opinions and perceptions of it. Thank you!

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 7:09:55 AM

juliaoceania

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The history of courtly love, the writing of poetry, singing of songs, and treating ladies as special delicate flowers started in France and spread to other kingdoms. Often they adopted The Knights of the Roundtable to express the ideal of courtly love.

At first glance courtly love would seemingly give the ladies power over the gentlemen that court them, but the reality is, it started out as a game. The assumptions of this game put women as an inferior to men. It romanticized objectification. Basically it came from a time in which people did not select their own spouses, marriage was a business deal, and romance was to be found elsewhere.

I have no problem with the courtly love ideal. My Daddy embraces aspects of it, and identifies with it, and I do not mind the aspects that make me subordinate to him...smiles.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 7:26:26 AM

KatyLied

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I'm not one for flowers and poetry. But one of the best times I had was getting to know a guy on-line (we never met in real life), who sent me poems. It was fun to see what he was thinking and to read the things he wrote to me. I kept all of them. He's the most romantic man I've ever talked to.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 7:34:51 AM

MHOO314

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This says it all for Me:

She spent the day with Her garden, Her horses, Her friends, as the sun was setting, She climbed the hill toward home, outstretched one lovely manicured hand--and he, without a word was there, just off Her shoulder--to take that hand and lend Her comfort--for that was his station in life---nothing more, nothing less--and he would not trade that for all the world."

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 7:40:26 AM

Aileen68

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Courtly love is just way too romantic for me...nothing mushy or sweet. I think I'd laugh if a man sent me a romantic poem or whispered sweet nothings in my ear.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 7:41:33 AM

KatyLied

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Aileen, I understand. I would've laughed if the guy in question started out that way with me too.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 7:41:54 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Read "The Lays of Marie de France"

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 8:18:14 AM

Lordandmaster

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The Lays of Marie de France:

Sir Lancelot
The Green Knight
Pepe Le Pew
Tristan (that pissed off Isolde, you should have seen the fucking catfight...)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Read "The Lays of Marie de France"

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 8:24:25 AM

MellowSir

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Nothing wrong with showing some class, there sure seems a lack of it in today's world...holding the door for a woman, romance, etc etc. 'Tis a pity that it all seems to be about control and sex, where's the seduction? And what's wrong with flowers lol.... it's about treating a woman like a lady(sometimes lol), rather than a piece of meat or a toy, any ass can do that. And poetry? rapidly becoming a lost art in a relationship, those that don't have it and never have are usually the first to criticize it as well.....and forget actually serenading a woman, doesn't happen any more.....

< Message edited by MellowSir -- 6/11/2007 8:31:40 AM >

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 8:35:16 AM

justasubmissive2

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When I first glanced at this thread , I thought it said Courtney Love..and why in the heck is someone writing about her?? My bad laffs.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 8:43:21 AM

amiciaN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

Nothing wrong with showing some class, there sure seems a lack of it in today's world...holding the door for a woman, romance, etc etc. 'Tis a pity that it all seems to be about control and sex, where's the seduction? And what's wrong with flowers lol.... it's about treating a woman like a lady(sometimes lol), rather than a piece of meat or a toy, any ass can do that. And poetry? rapidly becoming a lost art in a relationship, those that don't have it and never have are usually the first to criticize it as well.....and forget actually serenading a woman, doesn't happen any more.....*

Yes it does.

*bolding mine for emphasis

NChaka's amicia, who is happy to dispel a myth with fact.

edited to add: I write poetry too.

I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

< Message edited by amiciaN -- 6/11/2007 8:45:18 AM >

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 8:49:03 AM

MellowSir

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Well there ARE the rare exceptions lol, nowadays you're lucky if the people are even kind to each other, never mind the romantic side of things, how many couples have you seen that when they're out together, the attention is sorely lacking, a flower sent every now and then is a good thing, have the heart and all else follows.....

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 8:53:21 AM

EvilGeoff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trampler

I am very much interested in the aspects of courtly love...I know the basic definition, but I would like to hear others opinions and perceptions of it. Thank you!

Why did this image of some guy in a tabbard, running around clapping coconut halves together, and a bunch of knights screaming "RUN AWAY! RUUUN AAAWWWWAAAAYYYYYY!!!!" suddenly pop into my head?

(in reply to Trampler)

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 9:26:42 AM

amiciaN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

Well there ARE the rare exceptions lol, nowadays you're lucky if the people are even kind to each other, never mind the romantic side of things, how many couples have you seen that when they're out together, the attention is sorely lacking, a flower sent every now and then is a good thing, have the heart and all else follows.....

To say we are lucky is an understatement! When one considers all the people on the internet, the odds of even encountering one another were negligable. Factor in all the personal issues of finding the right partner and we had a better chance of winning the Powerball jackpot. The D/s dynamic suits us both, our 'vanilla' interests match well, and the romance is alive and flourishing. That is why we are dealing with all the issues of a long distance relationship for now; what we share is more than worth the effort.

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I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 9:32:55 AM

Nosathro

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greetings

Being a participant at Renaissance Faire and a Knight part of my training was in such matters. Here is a link on Courtly Love.

http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall/chivalry.html

Be Well

Nosathro

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 9:41:46 AM

Faramir

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A 12th Century poet, Chretien de Troyes, took the Arthur stories from their Celtic/British (The Mabinogi and Geoffrey of Monmouth) setting and added in a series of stories about a Gaullic knight, Lancelot. He both added in the story of Marc, Trastan and Iseult, but also borrowed and replciated the narrative, motifs and tropes of that story and added it in to the Lancelot-Guinivere story. Thus a Brythonic/Cornish/Gaullic hybrid story emerges from Chterien, that becomes the very popular 13th Century Vulgate Cycle.

The courty love, the illicit/pure, fleshly/spiritual contradiction of courtly love is thus a product primarily of Chretien's writing. Later, in the prose additions that make up half the Cycle, the Christian mores that condemn the love between Lancelot and Gunivere emerge, but in the 12 century poetic stories, the love does not have that guilt association. You cna read any number of his stories, but the most familiar and popular is The Knight of the Cart.

I don't see courtly love being super useful as a model for a Male Dom/Female Sub couple, as the essence of it is an unnaitnabel (?) woman higher in place than the one who courts here--then again there is the implication that the love, phsyical and erotic as it is, is not to be consumated. That's the the tension.

I can see it being a good model for a Female Dom/Male Sub with a chastity thing going on. He loves here in kneeling admiration, serves her, but she is unattainable, perhaps wed to another and thus he is denied consumation.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 10:06:58 AM

SimplyMichael

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Few here match my skills as a hopeless romantic and while many women do not appreciate such, lucky for me my lady sucks it up like cum from my hand.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 10:11:47 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

I don't see courtly love being super useful as a model for a Male Dom/Female Sub couple, as the essence of it is an unnaitnabel (?) woman higher in place than the one who courts here--then again there is the implication that the love, phsyical and erotic as it is, is not to be consumated. That's the the tension

Comparing the stories to the actual reality of that era is like comparing a Hollywood romance to our relationships. All the stories and traditions of courtly love that came from this era should be examined in context of the culture that produced them. By and large this was a patriarchal society, which valued women based upon birth, ability to produce children, or as servants. Women just were not the equal of men. To state that this model of love is somehow more relevant to femdom/malesub couples ignores that fact.

The ideal of gentlemanly behavior has courtly love as only one component. In other words to extract this one aspect of what makes one a gentleman is rather myopic in my opinion. The whole idea of gentlemanly behavior is one of not only honor, but how one treats those who are subordinate to him. To me this makes someone who is a gentleman and exhibits courtly behavior a superior dominant in that they treat those whom they have control and power over exceedingly well. There is also the patriarchal element of assigning women a place in which they are weaker, and need championing as a result. In other words a woman is too weak to open her own door, she must not allowed to become chilled because her constitution is too weak, she is a delicate flower which must be protected. It is a view of women that indeed casts them in an inferior light, which is why some feminists detest “courtly” behavior. I love it…and I think it suits daddydom relationships very well. But that is just my opinion

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 10:21:41 AM

Emperor1956

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FR. The idea of using a Medieval Western tradition literary classification as a "model" for real life 21st century human interactions is laughable. Besides, I'm too busy obtaining my 12th level leathers in the Old Guard House of the Roaring Cicadia to spend much time here these days.

E.

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"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

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RE: Courtly Love - 6/11/2007 10:23:40 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

FR. The idea of using a Medieval Western tradition literary classification as a "model" for real life 21st century human interactions is laughable. Besides, I'm too busy obtaining my 12th level leathers in the Old Guard House of the Roaring Cicadia to spend much time here these days.

E.

Thanks for laughing at me... have a nice day

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