RE: At what point?

RE: At what point? (Full Version)

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fordy2000 -> RE: At what point? (6/11/2007 9:56:54 PM)
lady heart if u were waiting for me l woul dplay that piano so well and sensually u woul dspin around and face me at face level and be serenly seduced aftrer l had made ur bottom a nice reddish crimson color ,,lick it to ease the tingling sensation of my paddle offering

LafayetteLady -> RE: At what point? (6/11/2007 11:43:07 PM)
Yes, I definately do have my opinon of this behavior. However, although I have been involved in this lifestyle for several years, it is only recently that my life situation as afforded me the opportunity to consider a Ds relationship of a full time, live in nature. Expectations on both sides of the fence are bound to be different. As someone who has lived independently and completely in charge of her own life for a very long time, I realize that I have a somewhat lower "tolerance" for certain behavior from others, and it can also be a bit difficult for me to allow people into my life at times. Therefore, while I have my opinion and won't necessarily sway from that position, I was curious if when looking at what is a different type of relationship (for me), I might not be being a bit "overprotective" of my life. The opinions of those who I know from their posts on these boards to be involved in these types of relationships for a considerable period of time, therefore, I thought would be helpful. I was very happy to find that I don't seem to be over reacting to that particular incident. I have spoken to this particular dom for a couple of years on and off. It was until a couple of months ago simply talking as friends. My decision to look for a different type of relationship has caused us to discuss moving beyond simply friendship. We do live in different states, and were in the process of scheduling a "face to face". My initial reaction to his behavior was that it was rude, and he was showing signs of insecurity and jealousy. We have no agreements about exclusivity, and I have been very clear on the point that until there is such an agreement, certain behavior is unacceptable to me. He called me today to "see how I was" and I once again explained why I felt his behavior was inappropriate at this time, and how it made me feel uncomfortable. I was given what sounded to me like the "but I am a dom" line of thinking excuse. I told him that I felt it was wrong when it happened, and again when we spoke on the phone. Personally, I feel that his "I am a dom" reasoning that translated to his not needing to apologize was a BIG red flag. In my view, a dom must be able to admit when he makes a mistake, just like everyone else. His view that he didn't need to obviously is a big problem. While a certain degree of jealousy may be normal, it is how one deals with that emotion that makes the difference. Thank you to all who offered their opinons and support of how I viewed the situation. Recent events in my life have caused me to sometimes question whether I am reacting appropriately or just reacting to the other stress in my life to the first poor unwitting soul that crosses my path. So while I don't believe I responded inappropriately to him (after all, I didn't bite his head off, but rather explained how and why what he did bothered me), the fact that I am treading in new deeper waters with what I am currently seeking can make me a bit unsure of new expectations. I have been greatly comforted by everyone's response that my reaction was not completely off the wall. Again, thanks to everyone for that.

CuriousLord -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 2:35:18 AM)
He asked you a question to better understand the individual he is considering a commitment with. It's disturbing to see such conspiracy mongering over it. This is just estrogen-driven drama. You should have answered him. Edit: Annexing. Looking over other posts, I can see a theme forming. People are concerned about possessiveness and jealousy. I would never continue contact with anyone on even the level of friendship if they couldn't/wouldn't answer questions like that. And as much as you're worried about him being jealous, he's probably worried about you hiding something. Evading the question and hiding something from him isn't helping his vieww on you. My suggestion? Answer such questions. He has his concerns. You have your own concerns? Great; address them directly to him. Talk about your concerns, if you have them. I'm sorry if this is blunt, but, to me, it seems like you ran off to a message board with a vague discription about what went on instead of talking plainly to him. This wreaks of unnecessary drama that could easily be cured by a simple and honest conversation. And, in the course of such a simple and honest conversation, he asks you about who you really talked to? Be honest. Tell him. Honesty is the name of the game, in my world. And if his questioning causes you to psychoanalyze him and think of things to be worried about? Have the decency to talk to ask him back.

MaamJay -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 2:40:59 AM)
I entirely understand your situation LafayetteLady, and it isn't always easy to know if we are being oversensitive due to other crap in our lives or not! I was inclined to go with windchymes in thinking that maybe he wasn't sure how Domly to be ... I know that as a Domme, some subs have complained because I am too polite! But now you have spoken with Him and He hasn't apologised for His error AND doesn't see He has made one ... that's a RED flag for Me! Only you can decide if it is for you too! Maam Jay

Totalmaster4you -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 2:43:37 AM)
The fact that he did not apologize after being told that you were uncomfortable is a huge red flag but not the only one. I can only speak for myself but it is one of my priorities to touch the mind of the slave/sub I'm interested in. I want to learn the likes, dislikes, preferences, loves, hates....every nuance of how she makes decision and learns. His dismissal of your feelings and failure to apologize for making you uncomfortable does not seem to match with how you describe what you are looking for. I have the sense that you are reluctant to let go because of the length of time you have known each other. Unfortunately these "slips" may be more indicative of who he truely is than 2 years worth of conversations on his best behavior. *Best of luck in you* *Alan*

Aswad -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 3:35:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord My suggestion? Answer such questions. He has his concerns. You have your own concerns? Great; address them directly to him. Talk about your concerns, if you have them. Definitely. I'm in an open relationship, and both of us have had other partners. It's not a problem. Why? Because we talk about it. If either one of us is worried that something might be amiss, we ask each other, and answer. Then we talk about it, and any concerns are laid to rest. I, too, would be worried if I got the impression she was hiding things from me. quote: And, in the course of such a simple and honest conversation, he asks you about who you really talked to? Be honest. Tell him. Honesty is the name of the game, in my world. And if his questioning causes you to psychoanalyze him and think of things to be worried about? Have the decency to talk to ask him back. ~nod~ Men aren't usually all that complicated. Most women I've met overestimate them in that regard. Honesty and directness actually does work better than analyzing and guesswork, most of the time. And most men I've men prefer a plain conversation about these things to constantly worrying if they're sending of signals that cause their partner to become suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious of. This can quickly become a downward spiral where their behaviour eventually becomes indistinguishable from what it would be if there had been a problem in the first place. And this is usually also the point where the stress leads to temptation; then there's a problem. I prefer not to let it go that far.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 3:37:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes Instead of taking it at face value, I read between the lines that he digs you and was feeling the green-eyed jealousy monster. This is what I got out of it as well! That the green-eyed monster was taking hold. I suspect he's been placing more thought in meeting face to face, and is worried somebody else will meet you face to face first and sweep you out from under him. It's obvious he has an interest in you. quote: Yes, he handled it rudely by repeatedly messaging you while you were talking, that was wrong. You don't say how old he is, it might just be immaturity. A more mature and secure person would let you finish your phone call in peace, no matter who he thought it might be. I agree with this, based on the type of messages he was sending you. At times it can be a little awkward in terms of being able to trust somebody you've never met, it's a two way street. As long as this is not a consistent pattern of behavior, he may have simply been having a bad day and was having a difficult time keeping his emotions in check. Amazing how people can do really stupid things out of emotion and not logic at times. If this is or becomes a repeated pattern of behavior.. I'd make the red flag call then. I think everybody has let there emotions get the best of them at one point in time, it's a question if it happens enough to be considered a problem or not?? I did not see you making any comments that he behaves this way all the time. quote: But, if you've been talking for awhile, and this is the worst thing he's done that you consider 'over-stepping', I wouldn't let it be a deal-breaker just yet. I agree that it's a yellow-flag to watch. You mentioned "other" things that have made you uncomfortable.....? I agree with this as well. quote: He also might just be confused with what's acceptable "dom behavior" and what's expected "dom behavior". He might think he's being "domly" by questioning you. I've talked to quite a few guys who have been confused by things they read in here and by emails they're received from subs who say they're not "domly enough" for them, etc. when they were being considerate or polite, and they think there are things that are expected of them to be considered "dom enough". LOL... OH LORD! A Dom can be turned into a ping pong ball trying to be live up to all these different sub/slave expectations and measurements of Domly behavior, and what his Male Domly peers think and express as well. My personal motto is this, FUCK 'em if they don't me for who I am. If I'm not Dom enough for ya, get lost I don't want you anyways! LOL.. If I'm too this or that or not enough of something.. Blah... fine.. go find yourself the Dom you're looking for and I'll find the sub/slave/Domme I'm looking for. quote: My gut feeling, though, is that he's just really into you and had a flash of jealousy that he handled badly. But I could be wrong. I have the same gut feeling on this, but I've been known to be wrong from time to time. Dare I admit it. ;^)

sleazybutterfly -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 3:44:46 AM)
When you are ready and not a second before. I think that doms or maybe just people in general..when we find something/someone we want, we have a fear of someone else discovering they want it/them also. They then try to get in and control things out of fear, though you will be hard pressed to find one that will admit it. I had many do that to me and you just have to put your foot down. If it makes them go away then it seems that might not be such a bad thing after all. You never have to give over control, info, or any part of your life until you feel totally comfortable doing so. It doesn't make you any less slave/sub like at all, it just shows you are strong enough to stand up for yourself if ever the need is there.

MamaDomme -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 3:59:26 AM)
LafayetteLady, I read thru all the posts so far and then went back to re-read your OP before I commented on this. First, you two have talked frquently for quite some time and that would tend to give credence to his curiosity-- even at just a friend level. I'm trying to be open-minded about that. Second, he may feel that you have more of a relationship blossoming than what is actually going on-- so, he may feel that he has the "right" to ask. My personal feeling is that he exhibited extremely rude behavior by continuing to IM you while you were engaged in a phone conversation. That you continued to answer him, was probably a bad judgement call on your part. That "gave" him that power over you. Yes, he may be a dom but that never gives excuse for just bad manners. Respect is a two-way street and must be given in order to receive. He clearly did not respect you in that situation. You mention that there are other things that are beginning to bother you about this dom. Maybe it is yellow flags arising for a reason. By all means, always listen to that inner voice you have-- it is rarely ever wrong. He is giving you red flags in not feeling that his behavior was wrong in any way--- my concern is that he will carry this feeling over into other areas and not respect any of your limits. This could lead to serious abuse issues. Good luck with this and I do hope it turns out well for you~~

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 10:18:34 AM)
FR I agree that the "but I'm a dom" line is crap. It's why we have all the other threads that scream "You're a dom, not MY dom, so back the fuck off" A good response to that line of thinking is "But I do not consider us to have a particular relationship together which would make me comfortable with that sort of behavior." If you're lucky, he'll open up and be willing to shed the real motivations behind it (wanting to feel secure and exclusive) and let go of the "tough dom exterior." But it might just be who he is and how he works- and that might just mean you aren't compatible. Seriously though saying "I'm a dom" as if it excuses a person from acting inappropriately as as bad as saying "I'm a man" or "I'm heterosexual."

LafayetteLady -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 10:27:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord He asked you a question to better understand the individual he is considering a commitment with. It's disturbing to see such conspiracy mongering over it. This is just estrogen-driven drama. You should have answered him. Edit: Annexing. Looking over other posts, I can see a theme forming. People are concerned about possessiveness and jealousy. I would never continue contact with anyone on even the level of friendship if they couldn't/wouldn't answer questions like that. And as much as you're worried about him being jealous, he's probably worried about you hiding something. Evading the question and hiding something from him isn't helping his vieww on you. My suggestion? Answer such questions. He has his concerns. You have your own concerns? Great; address them directly to him. Talk about your concerns, if you have them. I'm sorry if this is blunt, but, to me, it seems like you ran off to a message board with a vague discription about what went on instead of talking plainly to him. This wreaks of unnecessary drama that could easily be cured by a simple and honest conversation. And, in the course of such a simple and honest conversation, he asks you about who you really talked to? Be honest. Tell him. Honesty is the name of the game, in my world. And if his questioning causes you to psychoanalyze him and think of things to be worried about? Have the decency to talk to ask him back. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with estrogen and it is immature and childish to even make such a statement. The fact is that it WAS discussed with him, this had nothing to do with his wanting to better understand me at all. It had everything to do with his taking a position that he does not yet have, and assuming rights he has not yet been given. Not everyone believes that simply because you are a sub you are required to answer any and all requests or questions from someone who says they are a dominant prior to any agreements being made. The fact that a great majority of support that I have received has come from Masters and Dominants serves as a great indicator (to me) that while you may apologize for "being blunt", you are obviously in the minority of people who would believe that a dom/master has entitlements to things simply because they identify with that position. His decision to continue to IM is what was so rude. MamaDomme is completely correct in saying my responding to him gave him power and I shouldn't have done that. I certainly won't do something like that again. He and I have had several conversation regarding issues such as this. His "excuse of saying "I'm a dom" as a reason for his behavior when I told him that he was doing something that made me uncomfortable was the big red flag. I don't accept such answers. Had he continued with, "but I'm sorry it made you uncomfortable" or something similar, that would have been different. While it may well have been the "green-eyed monster" causing his behavior, when I pointed it out to him, the "green-eyed monster" doesn't justify the behavior.

truesub4u -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 10:39:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MamaDomme LafayetteLady, I read thru all the posts so far and then went back to re-read your OP before I commented on this. Second, he may feel that you have more of a relationship blossoming than what is actually going on-- so, he may feel that he has the "right" to ask. My personal feeling is that he exhibited extremely rude behavior by continuing to IM you while you were engaged in a phone conversation. That you continued to answer him, was probably a bad judgement call on your part. That "gave" him that power over you. Yep, was reading through all the post and this kept coming to mind. Why bother answering at all if you were too busy on the phone. I can see being polite... stating.. 1 min please i'm on the phone. But if continued to IM you and answered back. The phone call couldn't of been that important. That you could multi-task without missing a beat on either end. I for one...and this is only me... When on the phone and IMing someone.. I tell them... brb. Sometimes I tell them i'm the phone..sometimes I do not. But I dealw ith my phone call and get it over with. When someone tells me.. hold on.. phone... I do. They're known to come back with..are you still here... I just tell them yes, waiting for you to finish phone call. Common sense and manners. Yes he should of waited for you to get off the phone.. if he was going to ask his questions. But he figured after the first questioned was answered.. you gave green light for him to continue..showing him you could multi-task. Don't know your relationship with him.. only what you posted. And I too think it was poor judgement on both parties. Lack of manners... common sense.

SirDominic -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 11:40:44 AM)
Anyone who uses the excuse "because I'm the dom" is no Dom. It just don't get any simpler than that. Namaste, Sir Dominic

EvilGeoff -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 12:10:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic Anyone who uses the excuse "because I'm the dom" is no Dom. It just don't get any simpler than that. Namaste, Sir Dominic stamps his foot and pouts But... but... I AM the Dom! Yer no fun!

CuriousLord -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 1:21:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady This has absolutely NOTHING to do with estrogen and it is immature and childish to even make such a statement. Jokes.. humor. Based off social sterotypes taken to the point that they're silly? (i.e., "an athiest, a priest, and a jew walk into a bar..", "three blondes are..", "a blond, a redhead, a brunette", "an American, an Englishman, and a German..", etc.) Estrogen-based actions vs. testerone-based actions..? A lot posts before have sterotyped things as "testerone[-driven]"; I thought it was funny, so I flipped it around. If you took such offense to such a jest, perhaps you should reevaulate how easily you might be offended? I feel that this may even apply to your current "situation". quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The fact is that it WAS discussed with him, this had nothing to do with his wanting to better understand me at all. So what you're saying is.. he asked, completely disconcerned with the actual answer to the question, just trying to control you in forcing you to answer the question? quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady It had everything to do with his taking a position that he does not yet have, and assuming rights he has not yet been given. So you don't think it was jealousy, or concern about the nature of who he was going to commit to.. just.. and nothing but.. trying to dominante you against your will..? quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Not everyone believes that simply because you are a sub you are required to answer any and all requests or questions from someone who says they are a dominant prior to any agreements being made. Suppose not. Then again, this is a simple question.. something he wanted to know, and asked. Apparently, it was important to him? Or, maybe, he was interested and didn't realize your distress? In any case, are you truly aiming to build a relationship in which being able to get a truthful answer on a question is based off his dominance, and forthcomingness? quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The fact that a great majority of support that I have received has come from Masters and Dominants serves as a great indicator (to me) that while you may apologize for "being blunt", you are obviously in the minority of people who would believe that a dom/master has entitlements to things simply because they identify with that position. I can assure you, my belief in being open and honest with your partner and talking things out is not based in D/s. I can also assure you that keeping things to yourself and talking to other people about your problems, should you get responses like, as you put it, "great majority of" people have given, then drama will ensue, should anything continue. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady His decision to continue to IM is what was so rude. So then he's not a priority; at least, not one that compares to your phone conversation enough to answer his concerns..? I can see this going too far. I can see him pushing you for a while, demanding you get off the phone and have a conversation that instant after you answer his quick inquaries. I can see an insecure, hollering fellow whining that time should stop for him. But was this the case? Or did he ask you to hold on a moment? Relationships do involve compromise to work on things, you know. Sometimes, compromise means taking a moment out to talk to a distressed or concerned parner. Now, orginially, you said he IM'd you, and sent some more while you were on the phone. I know a lot of people who talk on the phone and IM at the same time. I'm one of them. Being younger and used to both, so are almost all of my friends and college buddies. This is normal to us- not rude. So perhaps I'm failing to empathize. Could you explain to me how IMing you while on the phone was rude? quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady He and I have had several conversation regarding issues such as this. His "excuse of saying "I'm a dom" as a reason for his behavior when I told him that he was doing something that made me uncomfortable was the big red flag. I do believe the "I'm a dom" statement is more adequeate than often considered. Unless being a dominant is an act, doesn't dominance tend to show through? Not to say a dominant person might not retrain his personality for the sake of interacting peacefully, but does a dominant individual not seek control? But this is a side bit. Does a person need to be dominant to want the truth from their partner? Do not fail him for simply being unable to be aware of his own emotions and sentiments, or unable to articulate them, unless it is for by virtue of such. This is to say: what he wants may be something unrelated to D/s, or/and he may be unable to tell what he wants; still, do not hold him responsble for what he's unable to articulate, though you may hold him responsible for not being able to articulate. quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady I don't accept such answers. Had he continued with, "but I'm sorry it made you uncomfortable" or something similar, that would have been different. So are you more concerned with his actions, or the feeling that he didn't take you into consideration? quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady While it may well have been the "green-eyed monster" causing his behavior, when I pointed it out to him, the "green-eyed monster" doesn't justify the behavior. But what if something else does?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 1:26:59 PM)
quote: I do believe the "I'm a dom" statement is more adequeate than often considered. Unless being a dominant is an act, doesn't dominance tend to show through? Not to say a dominant person might not retrain his personality for the sake of interacting peacefully, but does a dominant individual not seek control? But this is a side bit. Only in so much as heterosexuals seek to get laid. Showing ones orientation is one thing- imposing your orientation on another you haven't established a relationship with is another, and using your orientation as an excuse for imposition is yet another. quote: still, do not hold him responsble for what he's unable to articulate, though you may hold him responsible for not being able to articulate. I don't follow this. They are still responsible. I find this odd considering all the talk you've made on dominance and responsibility. He's still responsible for his feelings and his actions, even if he can't figure out where they are coming from or what they signal.

CuriousLord -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 1:28:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic Anyone who uses the excuse "because I'm the dom" is no Dom. It just don't get any simpler than that. Namaste, Sir Dominic Would you care to justify this?

CuriousLord -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 1:38:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: I do believe the "I'm a dom" statement is more adequeate than often considered. Unless being a dominant is an act, doesn't dominance tend to show through? Not to say a dominant person might not retrain his personality for the sake of interacting peacefully, but does a dominant individual not seek control? But this is a side bit. Only in so much as heterosexuals seek to get laid. Showing ones orientation is one thing- imposing your orientation on another you haven't established a relationship with is another, and using your orientation as an excuse for imposition is yet another. Should the air ask you why you breath it, would "Because I'm a human" not surfice? [Edit]I think I took for granted people would get this. So, allow me to add to this.. a human breaths the air out of his nature. If a Dom is truly a dominant person, and it's not just an act for kinky roleplay, is it not his nature to be dominant? People too often see "everyone as equals" as right, and being either dominant or submissive as imposing. Is it not apparent that you expecting someone to act as an equal, and not dominant or submissive, is imposing? I hope this goes to serve as a more complete explanation.[/Edit] quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: still, do not hold him responsble for what he's unable to articulate, though you may hold him responsible for not being able to articulate. I don't follow this. They are still responsible. I find this odd considering all the talk you've made on dominance and responsibility. It's alright. I'll just explain it. I was saying.. The guy may have reasons for what he did. Those reasons may not have just been "I'm a dominant". Still, he may be unable to either realize this reasons, or articulate them, so he resorts to the statement in question. I said he should not be held responsible for lacking reasons if he has them and simply fails to find words for them. quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross He's still responsible for his feelings and his actions, even if he can't figure out where they are coming from or what they signal. Yup. And this leads to my point that, should he have good reason, and just can't figure it how to get it across, it doesn't invalidate the good reason itself. Point being, he may've given an inadequate or false explanation. He may not be fond of long sentiments or articulating his feelings, or perhaps he's unable to do so. Still, the worst shouldn't be assumed for this reason alone. Edit: Missed a quote tag.

bliss1 -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 1:42:09 PM)
IMO - he has no rights until you give them (that goes for a slave relationship also). Until YOU agree he has no business asking any questions - I (in my sweet innocent irish way) would of found a way to tell him to go blow chunks.

CuriousLord -> RE: At what point? (6/12/2007 1:46:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bliss1 IMO - he has no rights until you give them (that goes for a slave relationship also). Until YOU agree he has no business asking any questions I have a sudden feeling I'm badly out of this loop on something. ..people think honesty and openness are some kind of right at Dom needs to earn from a sub?

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