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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/12/2007 8:38:57 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Or if you're me, just get bored/annoyed.

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/12/2007 8:54:23 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Or if you're me, just get bored/annoyed.

Which is why I would have to keep you entertained some other way while working on it.

But, seriously, responses are varied. I just mentioned a basic approach which has worked for me in the past.

I haven't even seen how people have tried doing this for you, so I couldn't comment on whether a different approach is needed, or if it was done subtly wrong, or whatever. I'm pretty sure you have a better idea of that than me, given that you have actually been around while it happened, whereas I haven't.

Atypical response is my middle name, so let me emphatically say: YMMV.

Heck, I don't even get a pain-killing or euphoric effect from the chemicals involved. Ever. My breathing goes down the drain long before it does the same job as an aspirin. So I dissociate instead of it, rather than because of it; i.e. I consciously disconnect the pain, or (if worse pain) my mind, rather than the pain leading to that dissociation. I dread the day something overcomes the dissociation, if that's possible.

P.S.: Alternate approach that might be less boring ... have you seen the vid with Elmer and the Magic Wand?

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/13/2007 8:59:58 AM

CitizenCane

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Awad, without going into the blow-by-blow, so to speak, it seems to me that there is a major difference between dogs and humans in regard to conditioning, and that is that humans mediate their experiences through a considerably more complex set of abstractions than dogs do. In theory it might be possible to know these abstractions in a sufficiently detailed way, and control the subject's experience in a sufficiently complete and detailed way, to undo unwanted associations and created desired ones through an entirely behavioral/experiential process without the desire/consent of the subject, but in practice I think this is ludicrous. A person in a resistant frame of mind creates their own structure of associations that is more complex but no less real than the direct ones that a dominant is able to create. Dogs rarely understand the parameters of the Pavlovian experiment or the Fuller-an treatment, but humans quite often do. Infants may have a more canine perspective due to lack of experience and undeveloped intellect, but even they are difficult to condition with a high degree of specificity, and the conditioning that does occur tends to have complex unintended consequences.
The point I'm trying to make is that the kind of conditioning desired in the OP is something like working a Rubik's Cube at the best of times- changing, or attempting to change, one relationship changes a host of other relationships in the system. It is of course a weak analogy, since a person would be more like a Rubik's Hyper Cube with one or more dimensions observable only through inference, and a mechanism that causes it to move on it's own, stick fast at some times and not others, and sometimes twist the facets of the twister.

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/13/2007 10:29:29 AM

Celeste43

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Clothespins on nipples for me are so painful that I couldn't find any stroking pleasurable at that time. It would more likely work to stop arousal by being associated with extreme pain. Which would not be the desired response.

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/13/2007 1:52:19 PM

truesub4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

You know you've mastered it when you leave a clothes pin laying out on the coffee table, and your sub/slave spots it and gets worked up thinking about it for hours on end.

Who could resist a Dom that thinks of his sub/slave with such warmth... leaving little reminders just sitting around like that ... ohhh the joys of a good mind fuck...

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/13/2007 9:04:45 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

AFAIK, there have been instances of people being conditioned to associate positive things with such an assault; if anyone has a good source, that would be an interesting testament to the efficacy of the human brain in doing stimulus-response pairing. Mine aren't suitable for this forum.

I do not have any links, but one of the things I discovered somewhere on my professional journey training in full-contact self defense was the following tidbit of information.

Adrenalin response happens all the time to all sorts of different stimuli, it has certain effects on a person physiologically. What is interesting is that the only real difference psychologically and physiologically between fear and excitement is the individuals own perception of what causes the adrenal experience.

Sinergy

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/13/2007 9:19:46 PM

BossyShoeBitch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

One cannot simply choose any action/stimulus and expect the identical (Pavlovian) response in all subjects. Clothespins are not bells...

In the strictest sense, yes, you can, and yes, they are.

It is why a CSA victim may get nauseous from a specific scent, or why one can make us salivate.
It is why a specific colour or flavour can bring back the bliss of a summer well spent.
It is why being touched in some special way gets us all hot, while another touch doesn't.
It is why someone who was in a war can drop flat like a ragdoll at a loud sound, adrenaline pumping.
It is why something we used to like no longer tastes good because we ate it before vomiting once.
It is why anal sex sucks if you did it wrong once.

And it is why "our song" makes it all come back.

Given the right conditioning, any stimulus can be coupled to any response, even complex ones. It takes time, skill and effort, but it works. Having cooperation from the subject helps, as does picking a stimulus that is well suited to the task. Prior conditioning to the contrary makes things more difficult (i.e. more time-consuming).

I stand corrected.

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/14/2007 10:23:33 AM

HornyToadsMI

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

One cannot simply choose any action/stimulus and expect the identical (Pavlovian) response in all subjects. Clothespins are not bells...

Many thanks for such a wise response!!! Not all nipples are sensitive either. Sometimes it takes a physiological response in a woman to have sensitive nipples. Such was my case. Now, i can't stand to have both touched at the same time (too intense). So my point is such - maybe that is not an appropriate stimulis for the response you are seeking.....

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/14/2007 10:24:53 AM

HornyToadsMI

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Oops, 100 lashing for me for not reading further......

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RE: subs and Pavlov's dog - 6/14/2007 2:35:36 PM

CitizenCane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

One cannot simply choose any action/stimulus and expect the identical (Pavlovian) response in all subjects. Clothespins are not bells...

In the strictest sense, yes, you can, and yes, they are.

It is why a CSA victim may get nauseous from a specific scent, or why one can make us salivate.
It is why a specific colour or flavour can bring back the bliss of a summer well spent.
It is why being touched in some special way gets us all hot, while another touch doesn't.
It is why someone who was in a war can drop flat like a ragdoll at a loud sound, adrenaline pumping.
It is why something we used to like no longer tastes good because we ate it before vomiting once.
It is why anal sex sucks if you did it wrong once.

And it is why "our song" makes it all come back.

Given the right conditioning, any stimulus can be coupled to any response, even complex ones. It takes time, skill and effort, but it works. Having cooperation from the subject helps, as does picking a stimulus that is well suited to the task. Prior conditioning to the contrary makes things more difficult (i.e. more time-consuming).

I stand corrected.

Umm.... I don't think you were corrected, actually. These examples are predominantly cases in which an association is created in an undirected fashion- arising naturally out of circumstances. The particular association relates to those circumstances. At issue, I think, is whether a dom can deliberately create the specific associations he desires in a straightforward Pavlovian way, and these examples do not address that. The examples also rely heavily on the term 'can', which falls short of our Pavlovian goal- which is to create a direct, non-optional linkage. The fact is that humans are able to utilize conscious mediation in their responses to stimuli, and while we can't always choose exactly what our response will be, we can often choose something that it won't be. If we have strong conscious or unconscious conflicts with an association, it will tend to get complicated. Only certain kinds of low-level responses can truly be 'conditioned' in the Pavlovian sense- fear, for instance- and in the moment after the conditioned response initiates, more complex counter-reactions can arise, due to conscious or unconscious 'choices'. My initial point was that without some kind of buy-in by the conditionee, creating strong associations between positive feelings (arousal, eg) and erstwhile negative feelings (pain, eg), is apt to result in complex counter-formations that will tend to undermine the desired response shortly after it begins.

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