subs and Pavlov's dog

subs and Pavlov's dog (Full Version)

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WiseCracknSadist -> subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 6:01:52 PM)
I was wondering today if you had a sub who wasn't a masochist but say everytime you place clothespins on his/her nipples and then pleasured him/her wouldn't the pressure of the clothes pins automatically cause their bodies to prepare it for pleasure? Then it occured to me that there were a lot of things in the lifestyle that seemed to be related to Pavlov's dog. It seems to me that a lot of Dom/sub interactions are about conditioned responses. I thought it would be a good topic for discussion.

Rafters -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 7:20:44 PM)
Yes, orgasm control and a lot of mental restraints work on this principle. You can teach subs to orgasm on command, with enough training. Pavlov's second experiment pops up all the time too. "You have to do (something that can be interpreted different ways) or else! No questions!" tends to trigger a slight stress response, compared with giving more straightforward commands.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 7:35:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist I was wondering today if you had a sub who wasn't a masochist but say everytime you place clothespins on his/her nipples and then pleasured him/her wouldn't the pressure of the clothes pins automatically cause their bodies to prepare it for pleasure? Going on nine years for me and it hasn't worked for me yet. But lots of people can be conditioned towards lots of things. Also, preparing it for pleasure (aka having a physical bodily response one typically sees in pleasureable states) does not mean the person is actually enjoying the clothespins OR in a state of pleasure once trained.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 7:40:24 PM)
You know you've mastered it when you leave a clothes pin laying out on the coffee table, and your sub/slave spots it and gets worked up thinking about it for hours on end.

velvetears -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 7:48:17 PM)
i think you already have to have the hard wiring for it to work like that. Like LA said nine years and it's never worked for her, many others i have known who submit to pain for their doms but do not enjoy it have never "learned how". For myself i don't think it worked like you are proposing - i was exposed to pain and during one time someting changed and it just "clicked" and it was like being shot out of a rocket......... but till that point pain is pain... past that point it is pleasure... very difficult to explain.

LadyHeart -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 8:56:26 PM)
"Tickle torture" works that way. The idea is that you find a really sensitive acupressure point by tickling, and then put pressure on it - you hold down on it hard for several minutes, till the victim really starts to squirm in pain. Done over several sessions, the spot becomes conditioned, so even the smallest pressure achieves the result. My Master did it to my foot, and I got to the point where even thinking about it made my foot go into spasm. Even now, I squirm just thinking about it. It was excruciating. :)) LH

littleoneinont -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 9:00:21 PM)
Master had trained me to cum on His command after only 2 months, the majority of the training was mental, now He's trying to get me to squirt on command a little harder but well worth the effort for His girl.As for associating pain with pleasure yes it is the best part of training a slave to enjoy it , if it is something that they enjoy, each is different, i know for my self the sound of chains just gets me excited yet Master has never used them on me other than to restrain me.

SimplyMichael -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 9:32:12 PM)
it isn't quite so simple. If your goal is to get them to associate clothespins with pleasure the feelings of the two must be closer together. I love anal sex, I get them all hot and bothered and then play ever so lightly with the outside of their ass. If you go to far it breaks the mental connection between the two and you loose more than you gain. Clothespins can be pretty painful and while that would work for some, for others you aren't going to get anywhere. Instead try lightly pinching them or some other form of pain play.

slaverosebeauty -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/11/2007 10:59:14 PM)
I get worked up whenever I see daggers or knives or swords, etc; on tv, online whereever, it doesn't matter, I get aroused an I have to fight to keep my eyes from getting all glassy. I don't see why something similar would not be with clothespins for others. Its a matter of conditioning and training to get such a response, or at least repeatition

HalloweenWhite -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 4:31:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rafters Yes, orgasm control and a lot of mental restraints work on this principle. You can teach subs to orgasm on command, with enough training. Pavlov's second experiment pops up all the time too. "You have to do (something that can be interpreted different ways) or else! No questions!" tends to trigger a slight stress response, compared with giving more straightforward commands. Any book suggestions on this by any chance?.

Smythe -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 4:42:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael it isn't quite so simple. If your goal is to get them to associate clothespins with pleasure the feelings of the two must be closer together. I love anal sex, I get them all hot and bothered and then play ever so lightly with the outside of their ass. If you go to far it breaks the mental connection between the two and you loose more than you gain. Clothespins can be pretty painful and while that would work for some, for others you aren't going to get anywhere. Instead try lightly pinching them or some other form of pain play. I think the main factor is whether or not the submissive wants to be conditioned. Wonders can be worked with a willing subject, but if he or she is resistant, conditioning is much more difficult. Smythe

KnightofMists -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 2:49:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist Then it occured to me that there were a lot of things in the lifestyle that seemed to be related to Pavlov's dog. It seems to me that a lot of Dom/sub interactions are about conditioned responses. To a very large extent... people in general have Conditioned responses... or another way to put it... "Learned Behaviors". But, Conditioning the Responses.. or Learning the Behaviors that you is desired is not so simple as putting clothes pins on and tickling their fancy. I agree with Michael when he said; quote: If you go to far it breaks the mental connection between the two and you loose more than you gain I expressed my thoughts in to some degree in another thread "Pleasure Pain Conditioning" quote: there are lots of specific techinques and tactics. But in the end there is only one basic strategy to use. Look at as a continum on a fulcrum. On one end is Sexual Response then other is pain. The ideal is to keep the balance tilted to the sexual pleasure at all times.... the weight should always be in a moment sexual pleasure. With this in mind... a person slowly introduces pain aspects to the moment. Slowly sliding this aspect on the other end of continum closer and closer to the Sexual pleasure and always keeping the balance tilted that way. Lastly and more important... the Mind! It must be primed and focused on that sexual pleasure. One needs to keep the mind focused o that Perception in what is occuring. You are in essense changing perception of the mind on what it is recieving. Slowly you teach the mind that a flogger instead of painful is pleasurable. It is one of the reasons many individuals start slow with warm and work themselves up to a more intense level.... of course many don't actually realize what actuall affect this is having on the bottom. You are changiing the minds perception ! There is no one tactic that will work for everyone.. understanding the strategy is key to understanding what tactic is needed in the moment. Also keep in mind... some individuals Sexual Response is Closer related to Pain and some it is very wide apart. Editted to add: This has a definite deep psychological effect on a person. Changing their perception of Sexual Pleasure is significant. In time this will affect what intensity levels must be maintained to for Sexual Pleasure to be preceived. This can be extremely damaging if this intensity can't be maintained or endured with the dynamics of the relationship. Conditioning our responses or the reponses of another is a complex process.... and it is much easier to take steps backs or in other directions than the direction we want.

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 2:50:00 PM)
One cannot simply choose any action/stimulus and expect the identical (Pavlovian) response in all subjects. Clothespins are not bells...

KnightofMists -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 2:53:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smythe I think the main factor is whether or not the submissive wants to be conditioned. Wonders can be worked with a willing subject, but if he or she is resistant, conditioning is much more difficult. Smythe In some cases that is indeed an important key.. in some cases the person's actual drive to be conditioned in that way is actually a hinderance to the process. Also, one can be conditioned without their own awareness that it is occuring. conditioning another is as much as a skill as it is an art.

CitizenCane -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 3:30:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Also, preparing it for pleasure (aka having a physical bodily response one typically sees in pleasureable states) does not mean the person is actually enjoying the clothespins OR in a state of pleasure once trained. This is a critical point. Just because the body learns a response doesn't mean that any more or less conscious aspect of the mind is in the same place. A woman may get wet while being raped, this doesn't mean she's enjoying it. One of the great complications of trauma is that physiological 'pleasure' can become associated with decidedly unpleasurable circumstances. This can lead to a lot of complicated feelings- various kinds of self-hatred among them- that are anything but sexy. Conditioning people to positive pleasure responses can certainly be done, but some kind of desire to be conditioned ('desire' being a complex term) is pretty important. The human psyche is pretty complex, and expecting simple pavlovian responses is optimistic, except on the same simple level of physiological reactions. If the person being conditioned already has significan traumatic associations with any of the elements of the conditioning, don't expect straightforward results.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 5:31:48 PM)
The way a sub receives pleasure from receiving pain is varied and we can’t say it is all conditioning to associate sexual pleasure with pain. Since we are going with Pavlov, let’s look at spacing that it appears he was referring to with his “transmarginal inhibition.” This TMI deals with overwhelming the subject with pain until she reaches the shutdown point. Like someone else said earlier in the thread, her appreciation for pain suddenly happened at a session after she had played many times. I submit she had for the first time reached a spaced, TMI, state. The corollary of this is that those who reach this state one time find it easier to reach the state from then on. So in this case, the pleasure the sub receives from the pain is reaching a spaced state and has little to do with sexual pleasure. It is working on a physiologic/psychological level to give her a dissociation experience. When she wants to be beaten it is not to find sexual pleasure, but this experience. Of course, there are other reasons subs desire pain.

Aswad -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 7:47:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smythe I think the main factor is whether or not the submissive wants to be conditioned. Wonders can be worked with a willing subject, but if he or she is resistant, conditioning is much more difficult. More difficult? Yes. Impossible? No. The main factor is the sum of the dominant's effort and the submissive's effort, multiplied by the skill of the dominant. Integral over time is in there, too, but that may be superfluous to mention, and a bit too math'y. Subsumed in part by effort, too.

Aswad -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 7:56:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch One cannot simply choose any action/stimulus and expect the identical (Pavlovian) response in all subjects. Clothespins are not bells... In the strictest sense, yes, you can, and yes, they are. It is why a CSA victim may get nauseous from a specific scent, or why one can make us salivate. It is why a specific colour or flavour can bring back the bliss of a summer well spent. It is why being touched in some special way gets us all hot, while another touch doesn't. It is why someone who was in a war can drop flat like a ragdoll at a loud sound, adrenaline pumping. It is why something we used to like no longer tastes good because we ate it before vomiting once. It is why anal sex sucks if you did it wrong once. And it is why "our song" makes it all come back. Given the right conditioning, any stimulus can be coupled to any response, even complex ones. It takes time, skill and effort, but it works. Having cooperation from the subject helps, as does picking a stimulus that is well suited to the task. Prior conditioning to the contrary makes things more difficult (i.e. more time-consuming).

Aswad -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 8:14:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane Just because the body learns a response doesn't mean that any more or less conscious aspect of the mind is in the same place. Of course not. Stimulus-response. You need to build the desired response, not a related one. If you want a complex mental response, like my example about "our song", you need an appropriate conditioning for that. quote: A woman may get wet while being raped, this doesn't mean she's enjoying it. Entirely true. But that may well be an entirely autonomous response. AFAIK, there have been instances of people being conditioned to associate positive things with such an assault; if anyone has a good source, that would be an interesting testament to the efficacy of the human brain in doing stimulus-response pairing. Mine aren't suitable for this forum. quote: One of the great complications of trauma is that physiological 'pleasure' can become associated with decidedly unpleasurable circumstances. Correct. There's the surface trauma associated with the coupling of physical touch and arousal with the emotional response to assault, and the deeper trauma associated with the coupling to the negative feedback given by society and the interactions with the dissonant internal responses. quote: This can lead to a lot of complicated feelings- various kinds of self-hatred among them- that are anything but sexy. Quite. But it doesn't have to. As I've said in the past, I know people who have been raped, and I know rape victims And the two groups do not overlap. quote: Conditioning people to positive pleasure responses can certainly be done, but some kind of desire to be conditioned ('desire' being a complex term) is pretty important. Not really. It's what negative reinforcement is all about at the earliest stages of raising a child, for instance. And it's what happens all along when we develop a liking for something. quote: The human psyche is pretty complex, and expecting simple pavlovian responses is optimistic, except on the same simple level of physiological reactions. Actually, the complexity of the human psyche is overestimated. Yes, there is a complex set of interactions, but the fundamental mechanisms are simple. Anything stimulus-response pairing you could train into an animal is possible in a human. Any potential pairing that is exclusive to humans is related to our special developments, which are dominated by simpler things like the addition of a 6th layer in the columns of the neocortex. This represents a repeating pattern of a simple algorithm which can yield complicated results. You just need to find the "key" in order to get the more complex pairings down. quote: If the person being conditioned already has significan traumatic associations with any of the elements of the conditioning, don't expect straightforward results. Traumatic associations should be deconditioned first, which can be complex, as any therapist will tell you. It can also be done, but may require strict control over external feedback sources in some cases, and isn't always possible without "untangling" parts of what identity the person has built on top of this trauma, which can be very difficult to deal with for both parties. In short, I agree that trust and the desire to be conditioned is very helpful. (What, we agree on something? That's a first, isn't it? [:D])

Aswad -> RE: subs and Pavlov's dog (6/12/2007 8:18:48 PM)
ExSteelAgain: Nicely put. In my experience, a viable approach for that dissociative experience is to start with sufficiently low intensity that it doesn't trigger an aversion response, and then very gradually increase it as the threshold for the aversion response rises, never crossing beyond that line. Eventually, the combination of endorphins and absolute exhaustion should either cause dissociation or profound euphoria.

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