quote:

ORIGINAL: TigerNINTails

This situation is really all about experimentation and finding an owner that is willing to forego perhaps what it is that they might do on a regular basis, and this would only be acheivable through clear and concise negotiation as to the nature of your particular dynamic.

Setting up limits that pertain to precisely how you expect to be treated, and guidelines that indicate precisely what it is that is in it for the owner.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: TigerNINTails

This situation is really all about experimentation and finding an owner that is willing to forego perhaps what it is that they might do on a regular basis, and this would only be acheivable through clear and concise negotiation as to the nature of your particular dynamic.

Setting up limits that pertain to precisely how you expect to be treated, and guidelines that indicate precisely what it is that is in it for the owner.

Well...personally...I love it when my slaves are the Masters in the relationships.

I've read quite a few of your posts and I'm drawing the opinion that either...

1) You are incapable of using the English language to make anything resembling a clear point.

2) Just ramble on constantly with no real understanding of what the hell you are talking about outside of whatever thoughts you have created in your own head.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jthaddeus

I've been interested in being owned, and the dynamic in my mind was much like that of a dog and a master. One where while discipline might be followed, the concept of hitting or playing head games with, or generally screwing with ones pet just wouldnt happen most of the time. But rather where all honest efforts are made to do eveything for the Master just as a dog would, loyal, obedient, and faithfull, and wherein getting attention, petted etc was not uncommon.

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ORIGINAL: TigerNINTails

Wow, Madhatter... It seems the hippie awoke on the wrong side of the hamoc this morning.

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I've honestly read quite a few of your posts, and find them lacking any sort of actual conviction.

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So there is a third point that you've missed. I might be speaking from a place that is above and beyond your comprehension level.

Or you're too lazy to really strive to comprehend what it is that I'm saying... Because I promise... There is a point in there. One only has to look to see it.
Excuse me... That would make a third and fourth point that you've missed.

After all, I wouldn't want to be inaccurate. Heaven forbid.

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P.S. Perhaps you could clarify something for me, that doesn't mesh up... How on earth do you expect that a person that does not want to control, dominate, or master anything is going to want to be a "Master in the relationship"?

In fact, as far as my understanding of slavery, I would have thought that is the furthest thing from what they'd want? At least, speaking to my slave, and others I've owned, as well as quite a few that I've met in my lifetime, leads me to that conclusion.

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If you reach Me at gmail, you will address Me as Master Tiger, tell Me about yourself, and give Me a limits list and one fantasy.
This will go into My BDSM files and I will then be able to gauge where to go from there. I am seeking only those intereseted in a COMPLETE and TOTAL 24-7 Power Exchange.

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So riddle me that. If you'd be so kind. Have I gotten to the point this time?

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: TigerNINTails

Wow, Madhatter... It seems the hippie awoke on the wrong side of the hamoc this morning.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Well, first...getting my name wrong when its in big bold letters over my picture isn't saying a lot on your reading comprehension.

Misinterpreting what I had to say when it was written in plain english doesn't state much for yours, either. I realized after I typed it, that I had gotten it wrong, as I wasn't looking at it, but... Alas, I don't have enough of a give a shit about you to care at this point.

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I've honestly read quite a few of your posts, and find them lacking any sort of actual conviction.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Read more of them

I've seen a large enough sample. Besides... Can you really tell me why I should give a shit?

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So there is a third point that you've missed. I might be speaking from a place that is above and beyond your comprehension level.

Or you're too lazy to really strive to comprehend what it is that I'm saying... Because I promise... There is a point in there. One only has to look to see it.
Excuse me... That would make a third and fourth point that you've missed.

After all, I wouldn't want to be inaccurate. Heaven forbid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
OK fair enough. It seems you can make points. Clearly in the jumble of your random thoughts, the point was "Everyone is different and you need to find someone who is compatible."

Cool. I agree with that.

But its your other point that I am disagreeing with regarding finding someone who will change to do things regarding what the slave wants.

Which leads me to believe you don't quite understand the full implications of what your suggesting (Conclusion #2)...because...

See, this is where you misunderstand me. I don't care if you disagree or not. That's your choice. But when you start talking shit about someone, be prepped to get your skull chewed on. I understand fully the implications of what I'm suggesting.

You are failing to understand what I'm suggesting. And whose problem is that? Not mine. But just to clarify... I wasn't suggesting find someone that will change necessarily to suit the slaves wants all the time.

Though I have to admit, finding someone that is already like that, as a whole, may well be fewer and farther  between and much harder to sniff out. It might well take negotiating that dynamic, testing it, seeing if it works for both parties. None of my thoughts were random. Your own filters are apparently not compatible.

I also know of quite a few "gentle dom" mentalities, be they male or female, isn't really relevant, but I know they exist, so he may have no problem finding someone that aligns perfectly. But really... How much of a snow-balls chance in hell do you really give that?

I mean seriously. His dynamic as it's stated is going to take time to find a suitable partner and likely will require finesse with his matching partner to work.

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P.S. Perhaps you could clarify something for me, that doesn't mesh up... How on earth do you expect that a person that does not want to control, dominate, or master anything is going to want to be a "Master in the relationship"?

In fact, as far as my understanding of slavery, I would have thought that is the furthest thing from what they'd want? At least, speaking to my slave, and others I've owned, as well as quite a few that I've met in my lifetime, leads me to that conclusion.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
This oversimplified argument that you are using to try and intimidate me is only showing how little you fail to comprehend just what you are saying.

Haha! My, how the insecurities shine... So does the "random jumble" you were accusing me of. You're right... I fail little to comprehend what I said.

You, otoh, fail muchly to comprehend what I said. And who the hell is intimidating anyone? I simply asked a question... And yes, it was over simplified. You seem to be averse to more complex statements. Just trying to oblige.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I cant decide whats worse. Your arrogance or your ignorance.

You started this shit with me, remember? Perhaps you should go think on your own "arrogance" or "ignorance".

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
So rather than simply call you an idiot and say you don't understand me, I'll try and explain...

Please do...

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Let me start by rephrasing the question "How on earth do you expect that a person that does not want to control, dominate, or master anything is going to want to be a "Master in the relationship"?" to...

"How on Earth do you expect someone who wants to negotiate and change the Master's style and dynamic to meet their standards to really not be controlling or dominating the relationship?"

How about not... I wrote what I meant... Now if you want to ask the following question, that's fine... But you could well actually answer the question I asked in the first place (which you've thus far failed to do) with a statement, backed by conviction, rather than turning it into an "answer a question with a question" match, and I might respect it.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
How is a slave having equal say in how the Master does things during a negotiation period before the relationship any different then a vanilla girlfriend who has equal say about how things are done during the relationship?

Simple. In the beginning, there is no relationship. In order for the relationship to form, there must be an agreement of some sort. Vanilla relationships, generally, don't go by negotiation, in the beginning, though sometimes I think they should (I'll explain that in a minute), just because there is little to no inherent risk, other than what is typical of a "normal" relationship.

Let me explain that a bit further. In the beginning of a vanilla relationship, there is a time period during which people are getting to know one another. It is this same time period that is recommended in the kink lifestyles, for people to "negotiate" their terms for the relationship. The negotiation isn't always equally give and take, but it is something set down, so that all cards are on the table.

The sub/slave/bottom lays their cards on the table, how they see things going in a relationship (as nothing more than a rough guide, ultimately, it's up to the Top in the relationship to be responsible and guide the relationship where He/She sees it going) while taking care to meet the needs and desires of the sub/slave/bottom in the process. This is called "responsibility". An M/s relationship isn't just a freebie.

Meanwhile, the Top of the supposed relationship, then lays His/Her cards on the table, showing the potential (we'll just go with "bottom" to make things clear, without a lot of /this/and/that/crap) bottom just what it is that they expect, given what the ideals of the bottom are and how they see things. This is where there is a somewhat equal give and take, though in some situations, this isn't the case.

There are always differences of methodology and opinion in all things BDSM, M/s, D/s et. al.

When the Top and the bottom come to CONSENSUS, this is what defines a CONSENSUAL Master/slave relationship! Holy shit! Go figure.

Now, when I said that I'd explain the "negotiation period for vanilla" this is what I meant. It would probably remove more risks, if people were more open about what they expected out of a relationship, before they commited to it. But vanilla relationships, more often than not tend to just coalesce out of what seems like nothing. Ever have one of those friends that was single one minute, possibly dating someone and the next minute their hitched and it leaves you blinking going "wha??"

Well, regardless, it happens. If people would negotiate the way they expect to be treated, or the dynamic that their relationship is going to take, and it was a firm agreement, then it can be relied on to provide a stoppage to things when they aren't holding water the way they're supposed to be. But normals don't think in a "rack" mentality. But kinksters MUST. This is the purpose of negotiations in the beginning.

The reason you find someone, and talk to them about things, is not to see if they'll change due to manipulation, but rather to see if it's something they'd go for, if they haven't done something like that before. In other words, he's likely to find someone that is more of a traditional "Master" and his dynamic might be a stretch. I wasn't saying to "twist an arm" or anything, I'm talking about positive negotiation of the situation, so the bottom knows what to expect and so does the Top.

It Protects All Involved

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
One dominates by setting the standards and the other submits by conforming to them. Negotiation in your terms is leveling the playing field.

Of course. In the beginning, before the dynamic is solidified, all things are equal at first (as in all interaction and communication initially, is truly between equals), and the negotiations must be on an equal and level playing field. It's only after there is a consensus reached that the dynamic shifts completely and places the bottom under total control of the Top.

Now understand, the potential slave, may still have to engage conversation in a "slave like" fashion, following protocols, set forth by the negotiating Top, but nonetheless... It still starts out on equal footing, whether the Top or the slave feel that way or not. That's reality. Because, until a consensus is reached, said Top has NO RIGHT to said slave. Period.

Sorry to burst your Domly bubble if you thought different.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
At best, I would say negotiation of limits is to set the boundaries of what the Master may do, not to dictate how the Master will do it.

Absolutely. I agree with all of that, and that is where you misinterpreted my statement. I wasn't stating to negotiating how someone does things, but you do need to set the limits on WHAT is done in the first place, or you open yourself to dangerous situations. Now, trust is another factor. Building that is a must, but setting the guidelines gives a gauge as to how well the Dominant is doing in building trust within the submissive.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Lets take a poll to see how many Masters and dominants will allow a slave to dictate to them how they are going to do things in the relationship.

Again, your misinterpretation of what was said, not my statement.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Certainly not the people I hang around with and have learned from.

Not the people I hang around and learned from either. Though I have to tell you. I taught myself what works through trial and error. I've been living the life quite a while. I know what works. I'm not setting lofty expectations, but I'm also not willing to tell someone to settle for what just any so-called "Master" states must be done either in entirety, right from the get go.

Not withstanding of course, the typical address protocols and other initial "requirements" they might "test" with and so forth. This is minor, but still, to some, it's required to see if there will even BE negotiations. But not to take just anyones statement of "how it's going to be" in the beginning of the relationship, before things are settled as the way it's to be permanently, with the bottom's agreed consent.

A slave deserves to know that bit right the fuck up front. They also believe me or not, deserve to have a fuckin say in it.


It

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Its not so much what side of the bed I woke up on, but rather my issues with you creating lofty expectations and false impressions of how this is works threw poorly thought out advice. Can someone find such a relationship? One can find anything, but to create the expectation that thats how it works is silly to me.

Apparently it is that you woke up on the wrong side of the bed... I wasn't creating any lofty expectations with anyone. In fact, none of what I stated was really all that different than what anyone else had stated.

So what caused you to shove your head up your ass and come after me, if it wasn't that you woke up on the wrong side of the bed?

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Not to mention your own advice is more or less giving the slave exactly the opposite what you claim they want..

Now whose the idiot here? I didn't say give the slave total autonomy throughout the entirety of the relationship... LOL... I said, that you'll need to find someone that matches you, and if you find someone that matches you, you might have to negotiate how that's going to work, and let them know what it is that you want and don't want in the relationship... If that differs from what they're used to, they just might oblige you, but who knows...

Nonetheless, noone finds a perfect "dynamic match" right off the bat. This advice wasn't about telling him how to negotiate a scene. This is telling him more or less how to define for his own mind and for any Top that wants to engage in a relationship with him how to define that relationship dynamic, and -- Holy shit! A Top might have to angle the way they do things?!?! What? Unheard of!

BULLSHIT!

I didn't say that they are going to have control all the way through, and be capable of dictating shit... You're stretching it severely. Straight reaching for the stars there, aint ya...

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Since you spoke of lack of convictions, you certainly don't seem to believe in this kind of dynamic given your own lofty expectations in your profile.

Of course not. I said as much from the outset. Go and re-read my post and you'll see that I said I like to torment my pets and so forth, and I believe in daily discipline. Blind obedience isn't something I'm into. And that's kinda what his dynamic sounds like to me. Not to mention, it's a little... I don't know. A lot of info is missing to really make a judgement.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Or seem to believe in any form of egalitarian negotiation given the standards you set prior to the potential slaves contacting you.

If they are interested in an M/s dynamic, with me, they may as well start from the beginning. I don't expect them to do anything other than respect my wishes the way I'd respect any other Tops were I to bottom, and address me properly. Plain and simple.

I don't expect them to engage in a full blown relationship, but if they're interested in one with me, they'll show me that much respect.

Proper address according to my protocols isn't at all lofty. Neither is asking for their limits straight up front. Nor is asking them to send me one fantasy, so I get a little of what's in their head, so far as BDSM. or M/s is concerned. Negotiation runs from that point. If they suit, they get contacted. If they don't, they don't.

Don't judge a book by it's cover. One must read and get to know, before passing a judgement. You seem to be fairly intelligent MadRabbit... You should know this at the very minimum.

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If you reach Me at gmail, you will address Me as Master Tiger, tell Me about yourself, and give Me a limits list and one fantasy.
This will go into My BDSM files and I will then be able to gauge where to go from there. I am seeking only those intereseted in a COMPLETE and TOTAL 24-7 Power Exchange.

Nothing untoward or lofty here... Move along, it's only a shrub.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Perhaps better advice would be somewhat similar to mine...meet different Masters, learn of different styles, try different things, but don't expect to be able to control the Master into doing things your way threw egalitarian negotiation.

And that's great advice MadRabbit. So give it to him. But understand this one thing...

I never once told him to expect them to do anything. I told him that it's probable that who he meets might need to flex a bit to meet the dynamic as he sees it. That's not unrealistic, IMO. After all, while "pet" relationships are common, I've yet to see one quite the way he described it. But then again, I might just need to get out more.

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So riddle me that. If you'd be so kind. Have I gotten to the point this time?

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Completely overshot mine by miles...

Well ya know,  One can never be too clear, I suppose.