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RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 7:39:47 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

With nothing to lose, one has nothing.



"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything."
Tyler Durden, Fight Club

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 7:49:26 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoirUMC

So here's a thought: perhaps whether or not the existence of this supernatural entity matters is contingent upon how many individuals in a given culture, society, universe--whatever--actually believe in it.


Well, I wasn't originally going to pull this in, but here goes...

There are certain occult philosophies (which are akin to faiths in many ways) that are based on the idea that the concept of consensus reality goes further than the social construct of it. That is, they believe that observation changes what is observed in such a way that a rigorus method of observation will cause a stable state to emerge. In that regard, scientific method is one of the most potent forms of "static" magic: it forms a rigid system of interlocked observations that enforce the consensus that had emerged at the time when scientific method was first applied.

Of course, the problem with that theory is that it's rather thoroughly untestable at this point.

But an implication of it is that the objective reality of dieties to some extent does depend on how they are perceived.

That, too, goes to the OP's post, after a fashion.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to NoirUMC)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 8:00:14 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You don't have that much freedom to fuck up because you are subject to your biological make up and environment.


This point is moot.

As pointed out by Stephen Wolfram, a mathematician and theoretical physicist, the emergent behaviour of a complex system of interacting cellular automata cannot really be accurately simulated in a more compact form than the system itself, though approximations are quite possible.

In that regard, when no other process than your mind is able to predict your actions to a perfect level of accuracy, your mind is the determinant of these decisions for all practical purposes and in all meaningful senses. Making a decision (an output) without any influence from state or input is not only something that is most likely impossible, but also something that is patently pointless. And without a seed state, there is no process, just like the absence of a energy potential differential makes physical work impossible.

So, for all practical purposes, you have all the freedom one can have in any universe that isn't undifferentiated chaos.

Qvod erat faciendvm.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 8:06:22 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything." - Tyler Durden, Fight Club


This is not in conflict with what I said.

As I well should know, having been there.

That feeling of freedom is amazing and quite intoxicating.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 8:23:40 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything." - Tyler Durden, Fight Club


This is not in conflict with what I said.

As I well should know, having been there.

That feeling of freedom is amazing and quite intoxicating.


I agree completely, Aswad. 

I have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 8:28:21 AM   
MrrPete


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Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:


"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything."
Tyler Durden, Fight Club


Sinergy while that sounds good I can tell you from personal experience that it really
doesn't work that way at least for me.

I lost, essentially, everything to a bitch named Katrina in Sept 05. In the past I've
recovered quite well from adversity but not this time, not this time.

To the OP

Before 1935 Acoholics, drunks, derelects generally require a "Damascus Road" conversion to quit drinking and they didn't happen very often.

Since then millions, myself included, have quit. What happened? Bill W. and AA
hapened and 4 little words, "God,  as you understand him."

This is the Higher Power of AA and it works for just about everyone because anything
works as a higher power even a doorknob. I know that sounds silly but it's true since
the doorknob has the power not to drink. Sound corny, stupid. Agreed BUT it works
and if you get sober with a doorknob as your HP I want some of that. Eventually, yes,
they realize there's something greater than the doorknob. But at the beginning that's
all our minds can handle. We can't even crawl let alone take a step.

So what is the nature of God? "God as you understand him."

AA loves cliche's and the one that fits here is the"KISS" principle or" Keep It Simple Stupid" or as I prefer "Keep It Stupid Simple"

I'm in my 24th year of sobriety and smoke free thanks to God, as I understand Him."


< Message edited by MrrPete -- 6/14/2007 8:35:10 AM >

_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 8:35:27 AM   
peepeegirl5


Posts: 214
Joined: 3/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

quote:


"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything."
Tyler Durden, Fight Club


Sinergy while that sounds good I can tell you from personal experience that it really doesn't work that way at least for me.

I lost, essentially, everything to a bitch named Katrina in Sept 05. In the past I've recovered quite well from adversity but not this time, not this time.



Well then by all means find yourself a deserted house on water street next to a paper mill and glory in your freedom MrrPete. Find some equally free males and beat each other up. In a few weeks, your body will be as sculpted as wood.

Thank the Goddess that she has freed you from crystallization.





_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to MrrPete)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 8:37:43 AM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peepeegirl5

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

quote:


"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything."
Tyler Durden, Fight Club


Sinergy while that sounds good I can tell you from personal experience that it really doesn't work that way at least for me.

I lost, essentially, everything to a bitch named Katrina in Sept 05. In the past I've recovered quite well from adversity but not this time, not this time.



Well then by all means find yourself a deserted house on water street next to a paper mill and glory in your freedom MrrPete. Find some equally free males and beat each other up. In a few weeks, your body will be as sculpted as wood.

Thank the Goddess that she has freed you from crystallization.



Without getting into a pissing contest about my own personal tragedies, MrrPete, I have commented on other threads that life is what one makes it and it is doggedness and persistence that allows one to make it anything.

Having said that, keep the faith, Brother, you will get through this as well.

Peace,

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to peepeegirl5)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 8:49:22 AM   
dawntreader


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Joined: 11/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything."

Tyler Durden, Fight Club


This is not only very true but incredibly empowering ~
 

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 8:53:48 AM   
dragone


Posts: 215
Joined: 5/29/2007
Status: offline 		Hello Philosophy; To explain my view of control; ....in every society, the very ancient, including the most very ancient primitive societies; the need to control the subject tribe under a rulership of sorts, a chieftain, dictator, president, whatever the title be; this God-Thing, or Power from on High; some invincible invisable force which bestows certain ones with divine right, has always been in effect. Devised, I believe, by some long forgotten person or group, who sought a definitive method to control and exploit the tribe, and to do so with impunity. Thus the perpetual programation of a society transcends itself into 'religion'; and is thusly and wrongly indentified as an inherent desire to worship...authority; or those declaring themselves the authority over you, the populace at large. All being veiled in some mysterious mystical creation, only privy to, by a certain select few. Offering some 'other world' salvation; peace and a paradise; only, and I stress...ONLY, if you obey to their will; after all, it is the will of God.

This caused a natural evolution to the present day religions, of any sort. Always the same common thread; of an 'enlightened One' or an 'Anionted One'...the Messiah,...the Christ; the Budha; Mohamed; whoever; come to earth to save the creature humans. Each and every diety has it's minons serving it, (christians have their heirarchy of angels).

The CROSS in christiandom; is heralded as a sign of Love, everlasting Love, and sacrifice. For God so loved the world,  that he gave his only begotten son to die for our sins, that we all may be saved, and be joined with our father who art in heaven.

This CROSS, is in fact the Roman method of execution of criminals; those who do not obey to the rule of Rome. It has nothing to do with 'Love'; never did.

It's proliferation in christain societies; is in effect the constant reminder to the sub conscience level of the brain; that to disobey you are destined to suffer ....death and execution. You are a criminal to the Powers that be; the church, the state. Christians pray before the Cross and the image of a crucified human hanging thereon, and in fact, unkowenly, they pray to be spared from death and execution, eternal damnation, and kneel before the symbolic representation of an authoritative enity, (church, State, whatever) offering their plea, begging absolution for their transgressions. The mere physical act of kneeling, is a statement of submission to authority. That they, offer themselves.....slave; just spare me Father.

In some countries, the president, ruler, is called Father; and the wife or the one who born this ruler is called...Mother. In effect, when you address a priest as...Father; you are accepting the idea that he is the divine authority over you, ...your Master.

All in all, to avoid the cold hard fact of this reality, the human brain seeks a comfortible position, a zone of comfort; and thereby accepts, that it is the nature of man; it is in my genes, in my DNA, always was, always will be there, I can to nothing about it; soooo, I ACCEPT.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 9:28:03 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

quote:

"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything." - Tyler Durden, Fight Club


Sinergy while that sounds good I can tell you from personal experience that it really
doesn't work that way at least for me. I lost, essentially, everything to a bitch named Katrina in Sept 05. In the past I've recovered quite well from adversity but not this time, not this time.


Guess it depends on what you mean by "everything" and so forth.

In what you said, you use the qualifier "essentially", which indicates there is some reservation.

In the meaning of the quote, there is no such reservation.

It deals with when there is truly nothing, nothing, left that binds you to this world or any course of action.

When you have surrendered all hopes and desires, all attachments and values, and you have truly relinquished life in every way except that your body hasn't caught up with your mind yet, then you are well and truly empty in every sense, and also truly free. There is no consequence to any action at this point, nor any desire to initiate one or refrain from doing so. The mind and spirit are empty, yet they exist.

I won't go into the details of how that happened for me, or how I gained things again.

But I will say that I had nothing to lose. Any course of action would either bring death, which would be no loss, or would gain me something, like an experience for instance. Physical and emotional pain did not register on any level. No worries, no fears, no desires, no hope, it was all a homogenous state of me, and I was free. If Katrina had struck here at that time, I might well have physically stood in "her" way for the joy of experiencing what it was like to be torn apart by "her".

Since then, I encountered it in the martial arts, and drew on that particular experience.

In the Japanese koryu martial arts, there is a state of mind that one seeks, and among other things it requires this emptiness. It goes by many names, such as mushin and so forth. It is frequently mistranslated as no-mind. My art calls it Fudoshin. That translates very roughly as "immovable essence".

In this state, you are dead, in a way. It remains to be seen whether you will live again, and you couldn't care less. Your surroundings will change in some way, for instance through the actions of your opponent. You will change as well, like water flowing around an obstacle. In this state, you are, and that is all there is. Words cannot do it justice. Eventually, you will move on to whatever lies beyond death, or you will decide to return to life. When it happens, and which of the two will be the case, depends on the outcome of the conflict. The resolution is as it is; you did not change it, that's how that conflict has always ended, how it ends now, and how it will always end.

Hope that makes some vague amount of sense. It's hard to describe altered states.

Either way, it has the added benefit of making it clear to any attacker remotely in control of their faculties that if they haven't yet decided that their reason for attacking is good enough to pay the price, any price, then they'd better go back to the drawing board, because the "person" in front of them is neither worried, nor hesitant to let events take their course.

It is also kind of relevant to the OP, with regard to the question of personal experiences.

Whether it has anything to do with anything supernatural or not, I couldn't care less. It is what it is.

And it is a profound experience, what some would call spiritual.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MrrPete)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 9:29:46 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything." - Tyler Durden, Fight Club

This is not only very true but incredibly empowering.


Which is probably why nothing more was said ... nothing more needs be said.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 9:30:56 AM   
peepeegirl5


Posts: 214
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything."

Tyler Durden, Fight Club


This is not only very true but incredibly empowering ~
 


Absolutely!


_____________________________

"If we value so highly the dignity of life, how can we not also value the dignity of death? No death may be called futile." - Yukio Mishima

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 9:35:23 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete
Before 1935 Acoholics, drunks, derelects generally require a "Damascus Road" conversion to quit drinking and they didn't happen very often.

Since then millions, myself included, have quit. What happened? Bill W. and AA
hapened and 4 little words, "God,  as you understand him."

This is the Higher Power of AA and it works for just about everyone because anything
works as a higher power even a doorknob. I know that sounds silly but it's true since
the doorknob has the power not to drink. Sound corny, stupid. Agreed BUT it works
and if you get sober with a doorknob as your HP I want some of that. Eventually, yes,
they realize there's something greater than the doorknob. But at the beginning that's
all our minds can handle. We can't even crawl let alone take a step.

So what is the nature of God? "God as you understand him."

AA loves cliche's and the one that fits here is the"KISS" principle or" Keep It Simple Stupid" or as I prefer "Keep It Stupid Simple"

I'm in my 24th year of sobriety and smoke free thanks to God, as I understand Him."



Thats it! Thats the sort of thing I meant - that it doesnt matter whether God is real or imaginary, because as long as there is something identified as God then the effect is the same. And even the avowed atheist has a God in those terms - be it scientific rationality or logical reasoning or whatever, it is some "higher power" by which the individual understands and relates to the world and himself.

Its about faith - or more scientifically for those inclined, a psychological reliance on authoritative power. We can understand the salvation of the modern Christian in both ways - his wrongdoings by the latter explanation are cleansed from him just as well and he is freed from their legacy equally as well, and strengthened just as well not to repeat his former ways. For the Christian it is the work of Christ, for the outside observer, its a psychological trick on the self, but it works either way.

So that, even going down the more rational route and saying that there is no God, does not mean that God is ineffective by way of his non existence, for even in that harsh reality, God remains within us as a psychological construct whose name and nature only varies person to person.

This is the great value I feel in having many Gods and Goddesses; since each person is an individual, its pretty natural that the mental construct of each person will be fairly unique. So it makes sense to tailor outward representations of higher powers in manifestations which broadly accomodate the mental constructs of individuals in as much as their unique constructs are alike, and to allow for more variations besides.

The great problem of monotheistic religions then becomes clear - that a single God cannot possibly accomodate the mental constructs of all, and so such religions must control the formation of mental constructs and must conflict with and/or dispose of any which do not conform. And all the while, it matters not whether that God exists in reality - for it is not a battle for souls, but a battle for the minds wherein the mental constructs arise and have their abodes.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to MrrPete)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 5:20:05 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		After many years of studying different religions and philosophies one thing became very clear to me -
 
We visualize Divinity as being like ourselves or as an aspect of our environment.
 
Thus a farming/pastoral people will have the goddess of the harvest and the shepherd god.
A people that live in the moutains will have different deities than those who live by the ocean or in a desert.
 
Our reality and our perception of Divinity are changeable depending
upon circumstances in the environment, society and technology.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 6:43:58 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Si les triangles faisaient un Dieu, ils lui donneraient trois côtés.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

We visualize Divinity as being like ourselves or as an aspect of our environment.

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 11:06:27 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Oui, c'est vrai!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Si les triangles faisaient un Dieu, ils lui donneraient trois côtés.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

We visualize Divinity as being like ourselves or as an aspect of our environment.



_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 11:12:40 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		There are few truly immortal sayings in our gimcrack culture, but that's one of them.  It's from Montesquieu's Persian Letters.

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 11:17:11 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Je l'aime quand vous parlez vilain!

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: the nature of God; does it matter? - 6/14/2007 11:36:13 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Ni vous sans moi, ni moi sans vous.

(Quelqu'un a abordé Les Lais de Marie de France il y a deux ou trois jours.  Mais ça n'est pas parler vilain, j'admets.)

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Profile   Post #: 80
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