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defining limits? - 6/12/2007 1:17:18 PM   
jthaddeus


Posts: 30
Joined: 6/11/2007
Status: offline 		Hi,

I'm new to this, and I was curious how, as a Master, one would expect a sub who does not know their limits to honestly tell someone.

I know my pain tolerance CAN be high. I've done flesh hook suspensions a number of times, have some ink, etc, but I find it's a very difficult head trip for me when it's being administered outside of my control.

There are times a light slap has caused me far more trama than a 2 point hook suspension, and I'm not entirely sure why or how.

Is it unfair to even talk to a potential Master untill I've resolved this within myself?

I see so many notices from people who are sick and tired of subs who are "playing games" or aren't sure of what they want. How is someone who honestly doesn't know to honestly, and appropriately represent that?

Thanks =)

-- j.
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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 1:22:50 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		The fact is that none of us know where our limits are in regard to pain tolerance. They change from one time to the next and are influenced by many factors.

When discussing limits with a Dom I would suggest that you concentrate on things that you will never do under any circumstance. Don't list things such as activities that you've never tried or just kind of freak you out. Those things have a tendency to change with time too. Many people will tell you to make a list of "soft" and "hard" limits, personally, I don't see much use in that. A limit is a boundary that is not to be crossed. If it's flexible or has the possibility of becoming flexible at some point in time....why call it a limit?

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/12/2007 1:23:16 PM >

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~erin~

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 1:22:53 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Just be honest "I don't have much experience so I'm not really sure yet, but I'm open to exploring slowly"

Trust me, even after decades, discussing limits isn't a "yes/no" easy conversation.  Each person is different, each relationship is different, each scene is different.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 1:25:51 PM   
Trampler


Posts: 580
Joined: 12/31/2006
Status: offline 		Well I think that this is one of those things you will just have see for yourself. After all you don't know what you can truly handle until you do it.  I think for the flesh hook, maybe your skin there had become extremely sensetized.  If you make it clear to whom ever you are talking to that you are very new to this, they will understand. yes you will run into alot of duds,alot of guys who are just talking out of their asses. That just goes with the territory.  Finding a Master will take alot of time and patience but it is well worth it when you do find him!  Look into your local gay-leather community if you haven't already. 

(in reply to jthaddeus)
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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 1:42:54 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jthaddeus
There are times a light slap has caused me far more trama than a 2 point hook suspension, and I'm not entirely sure why or how.
I think you bring up a great point.  I could say the same thing.  For me, so much of it has to do with my mood, to be honest.  I've only been at this a little over a year and still have a lot to experience but I have been very pleasantly surprised at my tolerance for certain types of pain and, frankly, my love of it.  Even the pain I enjoy though isn't always as pleasurable everytime I receive it. 
 
I have wondered myself why the differences.  It's not a difference in who (that's always been my Master) so if I love it tonight, why will I not necessarily love it tomorrow night?  The only solid answer I've been able to come up with is mood.  (And being a cancer, God, is moodiness an issue...lol).  Not that it changes anything, it just affects the way I absorb the pain and affects how enjoyable it is for me.
I see so many notices from people who are sick and tired of subs who are "playing games" or aren't sure of what they want. How is someone who honestly doesn't know to honestly, and appropriately represent that?
Thanks for the well-thought-out and sincere question you raised.....slave luci


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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 2:17:09 PM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Because i think most people have fluctuating pain tolerances, when i start "talking" with a potential play partner or Dom, i tell them that i am a wimp. And then if the level of pain they wish to play with is less than i can take on a particular day, i let them know that they can continue if they wish. The general principle for me is to start out slowly and then build up from there.

heartfelt


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Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 7:18:30 PM   
Shantra


Posts: 41
Joined: 3/29/2007
Status: offline 		I would say you tell a potential Master exactly what you are telling us.. that you do not know.  When Master and I met I too was a 'virgin' though knew that some pain turned me on from my own self exploration.  If you don't know.. all you can say to him is.. 'I don't know, but maybe the idea of this turns me on, but I definitely will NEVER do that!'  That kind of thing.

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 7:22:03 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		L.A. is correct. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer. -- A.L.

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 8:36:12 PM   
farieanne


Posts: 65
Joined: 2/24/2007
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline 		Hi,
i don't think when some one asks about your limits they are talking about pain limit. i think it is more what you will and will not do. Like the others have said i think mood plays a BIG part in the amount of pain you can handle or take. i think another influence is in how and who is inflicting the pain. If some one were to walk up to you and slap you not only would it hurt but piss you off. However if your Dom/me walks up to you and caresses your face softly and is telling you what a good or pretty slut or toy you are and begins slapping you lightly and slowly increases the slaps in strength all the while whispering sweet nothings to you it might not hurt so much.
 
i am not a pain slut in any since of the word. i like bondage and some spanking a bit of hair pulling but that’s about it. my Master on the other hand is a sadist in every way. How does this work? Wwe are a good match. my Master LOVES the tears and screaming and begging and pleading and from me. He does not have to work so hard to get it. i have never filled out a limits sheet as they do tend to change and i enjoy discovering each other slowly and naturally. my Master says my limits are the ones He allows me, and i'm ok with that.

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"A woman will always sacrifice herself if you give her the opportunity. It is her favourite form of self-indulgence.” - William Somerset Maugham

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 8:56:07 PM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline 		Limits are like most other things, they change as we grow and depending on a partner. Their are things that I would NEVER consider with past partners, yet with my current partner, they sound like an interesting idea. As far as pain, set up safewords, so that yuo can find out what yur 'pain limit' is from a given partner. Saying to a potential partner, "I am a masocist, yet, I am unsure of my pain tolerance at times." Its honest and it leaves your potential partner and you to explore things if it comes to that point. "I'm a masocist, I am willing to explore an to learn what my pain tolerance in xyz situation or with xyz impliment.' Is perfectly acceptable, its honest.

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 9:02:47 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I disagree on setting up safewords for that purpose.  Most people, if they choose to use safewords, use them to mean "Somethings wrong, need attention NOW"

If you just need to tell them it really hurts and you want to tell them- just scream it.  You can do a 1-10 system, or just say "I'm gonna pass out if you hit me again"

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 9:03:03 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I will echo what others have said, the amount of pain I can take depends on the day and even on how the top administering it gives it. It just depends. I highlighted part of your post below to address....


quote:

I see so many notices from people who are sick and tired of subs who are "playing games" or aren't sure of what they want. How is someone who honestly doesn't know to honestly, and appropriately represent that?




In my mind someone that states things like this in their profile is possibly a negative person and it would repel me. I do not know why some dominants make statements like these because they are unproductive to open communication in my opinion. Any dominant worth their salt is going to know that wants, desires and needs grow and change not only as a submissive grows, but as a dynamic grows. For a dominant to insist that a masochist know these things is just not possible outside of the dynamic between sadist and masochist. I say this because as having two different partners that have played with me I can tell you that the experience for me was much dependent on the headspace that the top in those scenes put me in.

I would probably be turned off by such lingo in a profile, and I would possibly write off such as an inexperienced dominant. I see the role of a dominant as one of defining the boundaries of play, and helping the submissive experience things within the context of the relationship as to define mutual boundaries...

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 9:07:15 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I disagree on setting up safewords for that purpose.  Most people, if they choose to use safewords, use them to mean "Somethings wrong, need attention NOW"

If you just need to tell them it really hurts and you want to tell them- just scream it.  You can do a 1-10 system, or just say "I'm gonna pass out if you hit me again"


The 1 thru 10 system works well in triage, why not in play?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 10:08:56 PM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline 		Safewords ARE like the 1 to 10, just with words. I use 5 different words {each has a different meaning}, they are equivelant to triage; just no numbers, words that convey the same thing. 'Red' means STOP ALL action. No questions, just STOP. that would be equivelant for me to a 9/10.

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"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

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RE: defining limits? - 6/12/2007 10:31:06 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Your's is not the only situation where limits differ according to context. Hell almost all SM activities I can think of have contextual variances.
I know Elegant's tolerannce for pain and ability to eroticize pain shifts with her cycle.
It certainly varies according to how slow or fast the buildup is with almost everyone I know.

Any answer to the limits question that is honest is entirely acceptable in my view.

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)
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RE: defining limits? - 6/13/2007 2:33:32 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		The other problem is one of definition in that not everyone has the same definition of mild, medium or heavy so using those words to define one's pain limit are problematic. However the 1 - 10 during play seems to be a good solution.

heartfelt


_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

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RE: defining limits? - 6/13/2007 6:28:48 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Don't worry so much about limits, people in S&M tend to grasp concepts and then turn them into some sort of sacred shrine.

Have him beat you and keep the lines of communication open.  "oh fuck that is hot" is enough to clue him in you might be enjoying it.  "oh shit my nipple is going to fall off" might be a clue to let up a bit.  Don't do a scene with a ball gag, talk to them, let them know what is going on while you play and all will be fine.

I don't tend to do a lot of negotiation, not because I am some uber bad ass but because I find much of it pointless.  Someone says they love anal sex, then see/feel what I am working with and change their mind, or they love humiliation play but didn't know what I consider humiliation.  Limits and pain thresholds vary with time of month, skill of partners, headspace, hell with work schedules.

Keep talking, communicate, be open and honest and all will be fine.  Remember we are all imperfect and mistakes happen so find someone who you can trust to talk before and after.

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RE: defining limits? - 6/13/2007 7:12:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

...sick and tired of subs who are "playing games" or aren't sure of what they want. How is someone who honestly doesn't know to honestly, and appropriately represent that?


When you don't know yourself regarding your "limits" it is best to know your partner well to trust him/her with your safety.

(in reply to jthaddeus)
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RE: defining limits? - 6/13/2007 8:06:26 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I tend to think of limits as either things that can never be crossed...such as children, necrophilia, etc....or as things that can be pushed.  I don't think of pain in terms of limits, I think of it as "tolerable levels" and have seen that it changes from day to day, depending on many factors.  One submissive I played with also told me she was a "wimp" and so I started out softly.  I built up until she stated "yellow" which, as discussed beforehand, meant in this instance that she was reaching her tolerance level for that activity.

Explain to the ones you are playing with that certain activities affect you differently each time you engage in them.  Asking them to start slow and build could be seen by some as you trying to control things but to someone like me, it would be seen as you trying to please me by giving me information to help me do what I...and you...want to happen.

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RE: defining limits? - 6/13/2007 8:51:52 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I disagree on setting up safewords for that purpose. Most people, if they choose to use safewords, use them to mean "Somethings wrong, need attention NOW"


And that is a problem because????? "Somethings wrong, I need attention NOW" gets the point across as plain as it can be said, seems to me.

My issue is not with safe words, but with the number of submissives who have expressed that they would never use them, or would be too embrarassed to use them. That is a huge problem. If the Dominant is under the assumption a safe word is in effect, but the sub secretly has no intention of ever using it, you can be in for trouble. Plus it breaks one of the basic rules of BDSM, honesty between partners.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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