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RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/17/2007 9:07:47 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta
Constructive consider all and makes calulated choices. Destructive is a level of insanity and all about selfishness and ego. One bring postive life enhancing karma while the other doesn't. can you guess which one? lol

I can talk about this more tomorrow when I'm not on my lap top traveling. Jyst ask.


Thanks for responding. I did not have a specific question and was curious to simply know more about what you described. The word constructive and the reference to sprituality made me wonder if humiliation was being used as a way to strengthen a person.

Your follow up post suggests to me that constructive humiliation is that that is responsible, compassionate and based on informed choices. If you have more to add, I would love to hear it.

Happy trails. Please respond whenever convenient.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to DiannaVesta)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/18/2007 7:17:30 AM   
DiannaVesta


Posts: 1087
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Mid-Atlantic area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta
Constructive consider all and makes calulated choices. Destructive is a level of insanity and all about selfishness and ego. One bring postive life enhancing karma while the other doesn't. can you guess which one? lol

I can talk about this more tomorrow when I'm not on my lap top traveling. Jyst ask.


Thanks for responding. I did not have a specific question and was curious to simply know more about what you described. The word constructive and the reference to sprituality made me wonder if humiliation was being used as a way to strengthen a person.

Your follow up post suggests to me that constructive humiliation is that that is responsible, compassionate and based on informed choices. If you have more to add, I would love to hear it.

Happy trails. Please respond whenever convenient.

Cheers,

Sea


I believe that it can strengthen a person but I also know that there are submissves that sexually or emotionally crave degradation on many different levels. As a teacher I might invoke this to get deeper into someone’s core so that they can examine feelings that are hidden/deeper. Let me give an example and keep in mind that I have a lot of experience so I don’t do any of this on the fly and never without careful examination.



You have a guy that has always been taught to be a REAL man, be in charge and in control yet a deeper part of him feels conflict with this. He fantasizes about losing control but just can’t seem to get into that space. He fears losing himself and it goes completely against everything he has ever been taught about what a man is. I would begin emasculation via humiliation to help herd him into sub space. Constructively I would do things that rip down the machismo and stroke the core of his true desire. I might put panties on him and make him suck a strap on or stick something in his ass all the while I am talking to him and bringing him further down into that space. For some their subtle humiliations while others need really hardcore degradation. Once in that space you reinforce the desire in a positive way helping them to get to that space, feeling free with less force. The force or humiliation gives them permission because their ego can’t accept their desire. Constructive humiliation bypasses ego. So after a time I can put panties on him, fuck him in the ass and although he will feel some level of humiliation he can easily tap into what it really is…. The desire to explore the feminine and to relinquish control.



Destructive humiliation would be someone having access to the key that drives them yet they don’t really consider the whole scope of things. There is always a selfish agenda. It’s the same people that prey on the disabled or weak.


_____________________________



(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/18/2007 12:00:59 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		 
What humiliates a person is quite variable, but say you have a very manly-man who is proud
of his physical prowness as a submissive.  He makes a mistake that he was warned about previously.
 
Humiliating him could take the form of having him kneel with his face down and be paddled
like an errant school boy while being insulted about his manhood and calling him a weakling, a sissy, a coward, etc.


quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval
It is an effective tool of correction in private and also works wonderfully for control in public.
I like to use a combination of physical + mental humiliation to achieve the full emotional impact.


If you don't mind elaborating, would you give an example of private humiliation that is done for correction?


Cheers,

Sea


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/19/2007 5:23:47 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta
I believe that it can strengthen a person but I also know that there are submissves that sexually or emotionally crave degradation on many different levels. As a teacher I might invoke this to get deeper into someone’s core so that they can examine feelings that are hidden/deeper. Let me give an example and keep in mind that I have a lot of experience so I don’t do any of this on the fly and never without careful examination.


Thank you for the elaboration and the example.

I gathered two ideas from your post.

The first relates to the different layers of the pscyhe and that humiliation may allow a way to get to the deeper levels--that is what I understood from the statement that humiliation bypasses the ego. If you have any insights about why humiliation works in this manner, I would love to hear them. Is it because the desire for humiliation resides in the deeper layers?

The second is that you are able to use humiliation as a tool to enable one to learn to let go. It is as if there is someone who has never before had an injection. And while they know the injection will bring them good, the perceived discomfort or a fear has them resisting the injection. If one can redirect their mind and allow the injection to occur, it can enable that person to take the injection without the redirecting or without (or with less) struggle the second time. In your experience, humiliation--done the right way--can help achieve this goal.

I would appreciate hearing any insights about how to identify areas of humiliation that are safe to touch, and those that are not.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 6/19/2007 5:48:56 AM >

(in reply to DiannaVesta)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/19/2007 5:26:26 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval


Thank you for responding with the example.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/19/2007 9:40:26 AM   
DiannaVesta


Posts: 1087
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Mid-Atlantic area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta
I believe that it can strengthen a person but I also know that there are submissves that sexually or emotionally crave degradation on many different levels. As a teacher I might invoke this to get deeper into someone’s core so that they can examine feelings that are hidden/deeper. Let me give an example and keep in mind that I have a lot of experience so I don’t do any of this on the fly and never without careful examination.


Thank you for the elaboration and the example.

I gathered two ideas from your post.

The first relates to the different layers of the pscyhe and that humiliation may allow a way to get to the deeper levels--that is what I understood from the statement that humiliation bypasses the ego. If you have any insights about why humiliation works in this manner, I would love to hear them. Is it because the desire for humiliation resides in the deeper layers?

The second is that you are able to use humiliation as a tool to enable one to learn to let go. It is as if there is someone who has never before had an injection. And while they know the injection will bring them good, the perceived discomfort or a fear has them resisting the injection. If one can redirect their mind and allow the injection to occur, it can enable that person to take the injection without the redirecting or without (or with less) struggle the second time. In your experience, humiliation--done the right way--can help achieve this goal.

I would appreciate hearing any insights about how to identify areas of humiliation that are safe to touch, and those that are not.

Cheers,

Sea


I touched on this a little here:    Max Fisch Thread   The last two days I'm a bit tired and maybe coming down with something so my brain isn't super active. I posted that today but we plan on following up on this concept at http://www.femsupreme.com/village/  in the fourm. its free. There is a cross post called "My Perfect Slave" where later we get into some of that, however the conversation is shifting into more spiritual realms. I think you'll enjoy it.

Be forewarned tho... Femsupreme is all about the female domination and although we welcome debates we don't put up with rude males at all. You'll find the males there highly intelligent, spiritually complex and respectful to all women.

_____________________________



(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/22/2007 6:00:28 AM   
MsVanessaNY


Posts: 21
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		I see it as a tool for eventual and further objectification. When a sub likes it, it is even better, as that is a sign to me that he has already started down the road, I have less distance to push him.

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/23/2007 5:10:42 AM   
iwearpanties


Posts: 509
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline 		if i may ask ?   i know not all Mistress / Dommes are into this  but as Miss Dianna Vesta  stated  to  brake a male down by placeing him in panties  i wanted too knowdo you  realy see a diffrance in his manners or the way he carries him self ?   i admitt i wear them i am male and i never had that chance too feel or be told too wear them by a Mistress or Master  .. I started wearing them on my own at a very young age i was drawn to them by the power of the nylon/ silky feel of them  i rember haveing a blanket with silky edges and them seeing and feeling panties at young age  7 or 8 in time i went from feeling them too putting them on and wearing ... Any way i guess what i asking is have any of you Mistress Realy seen a change in a sub once you have placed them in panties or do more refuse and need time too be pushed too put them on???  

(in reply to MsVanessaNY)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/23/2007 7:51:14 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

I would love to hear thoughts on what humiliation play means to people; how you define it, how it makes you feel and what you like or dislike about the different forms of humiliation play.



There is humiliation and then there is humiliation. Is the latter really play? I tend to believe most of those who see humiliation as a game or an erotic romp are curious exhibitionists who have not yet encountered a woman who can really find their ego's lynchpin. When she does find it and pulls it away, most would not find it so fun—but of course, that is a key ingredient of real humiliation, I tend to think. As an aside, I tend to see a difference between humiliation and degradation, while at the same time admitting these two currents do share a common confluence.

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/23/2007 11:05:38 AM   
canupleaseme


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/9/2006
Status: offline 		Hi  I have to admit that I have found humiliation somewhat difficult 
I didnt think it was something I was very good at doing and have often sat struggling to think of things to do.  I told my boy this a few days ago and was completely shocked by his response.  He feels I am very active in my humiliation giving and listed all the things that he find humiliating a few examples: using him as an ashtray
                                                                    making him be naked during play but staying clothed myself
                                                                    pulling his hair and kicking him about my room
                                                                    only allowing him to wear womens underwear
                                                                    being made to lick my boots clean
There were loads more but I cant think right now.  I think what shocked me is that I have always just thought of those things being general bondagy things to do.  I never considered making him lick my boots clean to be a humiliating thing lol.  I guess to me humiliation is osmething that would cause me to feel shame and embaresment.  When I feel like calling him a pathetic sad little man who isnt worth my spit I feel like I'm humiliating him.

he enjoys the humiliation I give him and would love more of it.  Im still mavelling in the fact that I have been doing it all along.  I dont think I would evr want to do anything heavier than what I already do though. I would hate to reduce him to tears or make him feel bad long term.  I am happy with little things that are masked as play. I wouldnt be at all comfortable humiliating him in a big way publically, though I have often made him pay at the till in a shop or light my cigarettes for me etc. 

Hmm I feel like Ive rambled and not at all answered your question sea lol Anyway I hope my two pence give you my insight into humiliation however confused it may be !!!


_____________________________

Proud mistress

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Humiliation Examined - 6/24/2007 12:24:27 PM   
DiannaVesta


Posts: 1087
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Mid-Atlantic area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: iwearpanties

if i may ask ?   i know not all Mistress / Dommes are into this  but as Miss Dianna Vesta  stated  to  brake a male down by placeing him in panties  i wanted too knowdo you  realy see a diffrance in his manners or the way he carries him self ?   i admitt i wear them i am male and i never had that chance too feel or be told too wear them by a Mistress or Master  .. I started wearing them on my own at a very young age i was drawn to them by the power of the nylon/ silky feel of them  i rember haveing a blanket with silky edges and them seeing and feeling panties at young age  7 or 8 in time i went from feeling them too putting them on and wearing ... Any way i guess what i asking is have any of you Mistress Realy seen a change in a sub once you have placed them in panties or do more refuse and need time too be pushed too put them on???  



If this is introduced correctly then yes, most men you will see a difference in how they act. Hell place a simple leather collar around their neck and they will act different. maybe not profound but definately noticeable.

_____________________________



(in reply to iwearpanties)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/2/2007 8:52:11 AM   
solvr70


Posts: 425
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwearpanties

if i may ask ?   i know not all Mistress / Dommes are into this  but as Miss Dianna Vesta  stated  to  brake a male down by placeing him in panties  i wanted too knowdo you  realy see a diffrance in his manners or the way he carries him self ?   i admitt i wear them i am male and i never had that chance too feel or be told too wear them by a Mistress or Master  .. I started wearing them on my own at a very young age i was drawn to them by the power of the nylon/ silky feel of them  i rember haveing a blanket with silky edges and them seeing and feeling panties at young age  7 or 8 in time i went from feeling them too putting them on and wearing ... Any way i guess what i asking is have any of you Mistress Realy seen a change in a sub once you have placed them in panties or do more refuse and need time too be pushed too put them on???  



If this is introduced correctly then yes, most men you will see a difference in how they act. Hell place a simple leather collar around their neck and they will act different. maybe not profound but definately noticeable.


and words, oh words, verbal abuse and name calling, can do soooo much.....i did have a gf before that would whisper things in my ear when we were out like "mmm...do you need my cock tonight?"

that totally changes my mood, reaction, how i behave...

(in reply to DiannaVesta)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/4/2007 7:27:21 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
There is humiliation and then there is humiliation. Is the latter really play?


I agree. There are forms of humiliation that do not create emotional discomfort and there are forms that do. It is these two types that I distinguish as D/s humiliation and SM humiliation, respectively. It is the latter type that requires more care.


quote:

As an aside, I tend to see a difference between humiliation and degradation, while at the same time admitting these two currents do share a common confluence.


I agree there as well. I think there is a continuum between embarrassment to humiliation to degradation, and the definition of the threshholds or scopes on this continuum vary from person to person.

Thanks for your post.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/4/2007 7:32:57 PM   
Cloudz


Posts: 836
Joined: 9/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: IwiltakeU

EVERY THING IS RELATIVE  I chose smart professenal ladies for a reason. WE HAVE ARE TRY TO SPEAK SO NOONE TAKES OFFENSE.   I LIKE IN THE RIGHT SETTINGS TO GO AGAINST THE NORM.  I USE WORDS LIKE CUNT SLUT BITCH AND FIND CERTAIN TYPES OF WOMAN LIKE THE CHANGE.   IF YOU ARE OPEN AND HONEST WITH THE SUB OR SLAVE THEN HAVE SOME FUN.   FIND THE RIGHT FIT AND GO F--- WILD.  IF THAT UPSETS HER THEN SHE/HE   MAY BE FOR YOU.   HUMILIATION CAN BE VERY SENSUAL IF YOU ARE SAME PAGE. 
MISTRESS NANCY


You may want to look into treatment for that Turret's syndrome.



_____________________________

Enjoy the Journey,
~Cloudz

"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain."


(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/4/2007 7:39:11 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: canupleaseme


I think you have given several good examples of humiliation. It seems these acts serve as rituals to celebrate your respective dominant and submissive roles, and not as acts intended to cause emotional discomfort. It seems you enjoy D/s humiliation but are not comfortable with SM humiliation. I think D/s humiliation is fairly common in BDSM and is often not seen to be humiliation because it is not humiliating in the true sense of the word.

Thank you for your post.

And I like your new photo! In general, I appreciate photos that convey feelings and energy and I think your new photo does just that. One can see your dominant space with a look that sees right into him, and a submissive space and daze in his facial expression. The expressions on your respective faces convey an energy, connection, and feeling.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to canupleaseme)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/4/2007 7:43:33 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: solvr70
that totally changes my mood, reaction, how i behave...


It seems you find an act that is humiliating to enhance your submissive space. I can relate to that feeling.

Thanks for your post.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to solvr70)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/4/2007 7:49:27 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsVanessaNY
I see it as a tool for eventual and further objectification.


Thanks for your post.

I see you to say that humiliation serves as one tool to help you create a particular mindset or dynamic. May I ask what objectification in turn symbolizes and what significance it holds for you?

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to MsVanessaNY)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/4/2007 8:05:46 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta
I touched on this a little here:    Max Fisch Thread   The last two days I'm a bit tired and maybe coming down with something so my brain isn't super active. I posted that today but we plan on following up on this concept at http://www.femsupreme.com/village/  in the fourm. its free. There is a cross post called "My Perfect Slave" where later we get into some of that, however the conversation is shifting into more spiritual realms. I think you'll enjoy it.

Be forewarned tho... Femsupreme is all about the female domination and although we welcome debates we don't put up with rude males at all. You'll find the males there highly intelligent, spiritually complex and respectful to all women.


Thank you for the post and the link that discusses this idea more.

Thank you also for a link to Femsupreme. I try to be respectful to people in general and think I do reasonably well at that. I think where this respect that is initially offered goes is up to the person at the other end. I think simply identifying as a dominant woman does not entitle one to unquestioned respect regardless of what she says or how she acts. To the extent a philosophy of this unquestioned respect is true at Femsupreme, I would not connect with it intellectually. I could connect with this philosophy spiritually or in a D/s context. However, I could not extend this feeling to any woman who identifies herself as a domme but to those women who inspire it. There is another thread to which I intend to post to elaborate on these thoughts.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 7/4/2007 8:53:58 PM >

(in reply to DiannaVesta)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/18/2007 6:43:41 AM   
pleasure693


Posts: 9
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		wants...........many

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Humiliation Examined - 7/18/2007 7:01:36 AM   
EmpassionedRogue


Posts: 27
Joined: 6/13/2007
Status: offline 		humiliation is a soft limit for me. i dont think ill ever understand how people get a sexual thrill out of it. sure you could all explain it till blue in the face, but I , still wouldnt get it. i just dont feel  that way.
ive had more then enough put-downs in life, and really dont want or need a domme adding to it as her idea of "fun". wich is what it seems to me.  ild be like "ok, fine... im a worthless piece of crap that cant do a god damned thing right. i will leave you and hope you can find someone worthy" later ild have a total sobbing breakdown.

_____________________________

- a man can derive no greater pleasure himself, then that of bringing pleasure to a great woman. in any capacity -

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 40
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