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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 2:53:20 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I like it!  I have to agree with the OP, perhaps, use of the words "train", "trainer" and "training" wasn't qhite right.  Personally, I have a problem with those words.  I, too, respect teachers, lecturers, etc., but I prefer the word teach.  I think "train" has a connotation of this is the "right" way to do X, when we all know that there are many, many ways to do X. 

Anyone can violate a hard limit, doesn't have to be a trainer or mentor.  Should he have done it?  In my opinion, no.  Maybe the OP should have been more careful in who she picked as a teacher, and maybe she was and the guy was a jerk!  Who knows?  If she learned from it, well, then that's a good thing.

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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 5:16:46 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Does it matter if he/she calls him/herself trainer/trainee, master/slave, dom/sub, asshole/shithead, wife/husband?



Pfffft.  On these forums?  You're damn straight it matters.


Then I'm changing my name to Shitheadvel.


lmao at the two of yas.....

Ya see....here's the thing-- As much as I hate to admit this--and believe me I do HATE to admit this--I have actually become more open-minded as the result of hanging around this whacked out place.  A year ago, I used to make generalizations too. I'd say stuff like "Anyone who practices financially slavery  must be crazy"  "anyone who calls himself a trainer is just looking to exploit a newbie for sex"  "anyone who would play with someone's fears is a not a responsible dom".  And boy did I get my ass kicked, several times.  But more importantly I've had people (very few of them, but people nonetheless) who have broken down my arguments in a way that made sense to me.  I now think to myself---hey, I don't want some trainer, but for someone else, maybe that word works for them...or maybe that dynamic is where they find enjoyment etc.  Just because *I* can't relate to it, doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else.

Again, we could have a person who calls himself master or dom or lover or gentleman or whathaveyou who goes ahead and pulls the wool over a newbies eyes in order to promote his own agenda. What has to be discerned is whether or not this trainer, master, dom, lover, whothefuckever is an honorable type of a person before we move forward with them, rather than putting them in a box because they choose to call themselves a tuna sandwich.

I think when we start making generalizations with regards to wiitwd such as anyone who does X must be Y we start to live in a very narrow-minded world.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 6/18/2007 5:18:46 AM >

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 6:43:12 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I think when we start making generalizations with regards to wiitwd such as anyone who does X must be Y we start to live in a very narrow-minded world.


Welcome to this thread then.

Anyone who trains must be....

Anyone who calls him/herself a mentor must be....

Any new person not knowing better must be....

So for as open minded as we claim to be, we're just as narrow minded too.  Go figure.  And yes those are generalizations I made, so I must be.....................................................

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 7:23:40 AM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		This subject is one that should stimulate some serious thought among those thinking of moving from on line to real time experiences.

It is my personal experience that whenever one delves into lots of BD/SM prctices with new partners, no matter how well all try to honestly negotiate everything, situations will come up where an unexpected hard limit exists. Usually one only finds this limit by violating it.

If everyone involved is honest and means well, usually the fact there is a problem will be noticed and addressed. People are NOT always able to give safe words or safe signals, so whoever is in charge of the scene being done needs to closely monitor their partners.

After the problem is addressed and understood one can keep the mutual trust and respect strong by working things out together.

Once deep trust is established, we may resume teaching the new person more of the edgy things he or she wishes to learn or experience, knowing that WHEN another unsuspected limit appears by being violated, each can trust the other to honestly try to take care of these problems when they come up.

No one can know when something one dreams about may be too much to experience, no one can know when a "landmine" may hit.

No matter what I call myself or what you call me, we will nearly always have different pictures in our minds about what we are discussing. I do not offer the terms "mentor" or "teacher" lightly and do not offer them to anyone I might think of making deep intimate connections with, as these terms have serious ethical limits to me.

Trainer is a term I have no inhibitions about, though I know others may use it as a synonym for teacher,


_____________________________

As always, your mileage may vary!

vield

(in reply to bandit25)
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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 7:33:30 AM   
NControlofU


Posts: 204
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I think when we start making generalizations with regards to wiitwd such as anyone who does X must be Y we start to live in a very narrow-minded world.


There are a lot of narrow-minded people in the world, everywhere, even in the world of BDSM, where, supposedly very open-minded people say "to each his/her own" and then turn right around and judge the hell out of someone else because they have a different perspective/attitude/way of doing wiitwd.  I have trained subs/slaves but, I don't refer to myself as a trainer and I always respect, not only the limits they say they have, but also what it is that they are wanting to achieve by going through this experience with me.  If they are looking to overcome a fear about being bound, gagged, blindfolded and used sexually, then that is what we will work on and nothing more.  If they are looking to experience being humiliated, that's what we will do.  The only one that I will adjust limits on is my own slave, because she is my property, she belongs to me, I know what her capabilities are (better than she does) and I know how far I can go with her.  Someone who comes to me for training isn't here for me to push over the edge and if they are I will still make it very clear that the edge is where they say it is, not where I decide it is.  You need to have complete trust to be able to achieve what you are seeking with a trainer or whatever you want to call him.  You need to make sure the person you're dealing with is a person of integrity and understands what it is that you want and will respect that.  After all, what it is that I do, isn't going to be exactly what it is that you do or what it is that someone else does.

(in reply to marieToo)
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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 10:01:06 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NControlofU

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I think when we start making generalizations with regards to wiitwd such as anyone who does X must be Y we start to live in a very narrow-minded world.


There are a lot of narrow-minded people in the world, everywhere, even in the world of BDSM, where, supposedly very open-minded people say "to each his/her own" and then turn right around and judge the hell out of someone else because they have a different perspective/attitude/way of doing wiitwd.  I have trained subs/slaves but, I don't refer to myself as a trainer and I always respect, not only the limits they say they have, but also what it is that they are wanting to achieve by going through this experience with me.  If they are looking to overcome a fear about being bound, gagged, blindfolded and used sexually, then that is what we will work on and nothing more.  If they are looking to experience being humiliated, that's what we will do.  The only one that I will adjust limits on is my own slave, because she is my property, she belongs to me, I know what her capabilities are (better than she does) and I know how far I can go with her.  Someone who comes to me for training isn't here for me to push over the edge and if they are I will still make it very clear that the edge is where they say it is, not where I decide it is.  You need to have complete trust to be able to achieve what you are seeking with a trainer or whatever you want to call him.  You need to make sure the person you're dealing with is a person of integrity and understands what it is that you want and will respect that.  After all, what it is that I do, isn't going to be exactly what it is that you do or what it is that someone else does.


I think the red highlighted text is the crux of it.    How many times have we seen people who claim to be "masters" exploit someone?  I think in the OPs case, what might be better, is offereing advice on how to make good judgement calls on one's integrity and character rather than to say something like "All trainers are bad". 

As bandit eluded to, that word (trainer) does come with a bit of a stigma attached to it and I think that is where alot of people get stuck on it.  But we have all seen some 'people' screw some other people over, regardless of how they self-identify.  That is why I think the importance of character discerning should be stressed more than anything, regardless of the 'lifestyle' choice or labels used therein.

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 10:41:35 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear DeviantlyD, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
With any 'limit' there will be times where those limits are crossed by accident, by intention, by circumstances and by chance.  Limits do change.  Limits change at any time.
 
That said, I have not gone past limits for a very long time.  I prefer to leave a little space between a limit.  I see it in my mind's eyes as a ledge/shelf for me to stand on next time I interact with that person.  Having a space is also a means to have a cushion between my limits and their limits.  People see things differently as I do and until we are 'one' in our meaning, measures and limits--I stay within the limit boundaries.  This includes emotional, mental and spiritual boundaries/limits--not just physical.
 
When I do cross a limit, I will acknowledge it and own up to it.  I also will apologize.  But, more times it is the slave who crosses the line of my limits.  Unfortunately, few will address this problem in the lifestyle/community/The Scene.  This is why I am mentioning it here--as to remind one and all; Dominants need to have their limits/boundaries honored just as much as Dominants honoring slave/submissive limits.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 
 
 

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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 11:35:14 AM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		This is one of the reasons I never searched for a 'trainer' as I just don't think the situation would be good for me or take me any closer to the places I want to be.  I can't imagine how another person would have 'trained' me for the dynamics of my current relationship.  They could have taught me how to deep throat?  Or take a beating?  But I wouldn't have known any of the little things that add up in our relationship.

I think that eventually my Dominant will accidentally take me to bad places that will temporarily hurt me or he might accidentally hurt me unintentionally.  That is just the nature of playing with fire and it's a risk of which we were both aware starting this.  If he did it intentionally, I don't know how I would feel about it. 

I think that he acted inappropriately personally.  I also think you shouldn't have started anything with him unless he agreed to respect the limits you set.  No one 'should' act like your Master unless they are indeed your Master.  Since you can control other people, you have to take measure to protect yourself from situations like that.


_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 11:35:21 AM   
JerryInTampa


Posts: 138
Joined: 2/19/2004
Status: offline 		Never let your mind be so open that your brain falls out.

While there's certainly a risk of trying to make black-and-white something that is grey; it is no less risky to allow ourselves to become so fast and loose with definitions and standards that they seek to have any use.

Can someone who has never interacted with a horse be properly called a "horse trainer"? Can we consider a nomad living out in Sub-Sahara Africa an astronaught? Words have meanings. Sometimes the word is reasonably ambiguious and can mean different things to different people (what is a "trainer"? Certainly a bad trainer is still a trainer), but they cannot be so open that we must simply say "it's all good and proper" because it isn't.

To limits in particular, I'll reiterate what I said on page one. As a society we, and as an individual I, assert that relationships must occur with informed consent in order to be proper and legal. When someone has denied consent for an action (placed a limit), crossing that is criminal.

Now mistakes will sometimes happen. We pick up the luggage at the airport we genuinely thought was ours; or we walk into the field we didn't notice the "no trespassing" sign on. But we can never justify deliberately crossing (and only rarely justify accidentally crossing) an expressed limit. It's wrong and it's criminal.

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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 7:18:52 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
And what if the sub wanted to fulfill her "damsel in distress kink" and get some sex herself?

How bad could that be? 

Does it matter if he/she calls him/herself trainer/trainee, master/slave, dom/sub, asshole/shithead, wife/husband?

If that's their thing and they like framing it up that way, why not go for it?  Is the "trainee"/"slave"/"submissive"/"wife"/girlfriend" incapable of choosing a safe partner as their "trainer"/"master"/"dominant"/"boyfriend"?  No matter what you call each other, or what dynamic you practice, anyone can take advantage of  or exploit another person simply to get their kink on;  not just those who call themselves trainers.. 

The label should fall away and the same rules of common sense should apply, no matter what two people want to call themselves or how they wish to relate to one another in their own personal dynamic.


So, wait ....

You believe adults should should be free to come together consensually to seek the fulfillments they desire and to describe them in the terms they find most meaningful or useful?

Even if that involves someone actually taking pleasure in sadomasochism or even sexual intercourse? Read the TOS, girl. I mean I never have, but I get the impression from some people around here that "The Terms" specify that it is immoral to do anything to please oneself if it might also result in another human being learning something or otherwise developing their potential.

Or at minimum that they are--mostly-- stupid assholes for trying.

Calvin isn't dead, as it turns out. And what a wonderful cosmic joke that his prudish spirit thrives with such vigor in a subsection--if you'll pardon the expression--of the kink community.

And so anyways....you imagine that it might be nice if these consenting adults could do the sorts of things described above without being gratuitously subjected to derision from people who have never met them?

What? They'll fuckin' let anyone in here these days. No shit.

Anyone stupid enough to buy into that kind of malarkey is a welcome breath of fresh air. Thanks, Marie.

I'm as aware as anyone that a lot of people unamiliar with kink will say things like:

"Any woman who will subject herself to physical violence is sick or worse. And any woman who will subject her will to that of a man at all is pathetic at best, while any man who would strike or psychologically or emotionally dominate a woman is scum."

Change the genders and the appraisals usually get worse instead of better.

How sad, then, that we in kink so often, as if reflexively, turn on each other with similarly inane and/or hurtful attacks, just in case someone else's kink varies just a little bit too much from our own. I've been guilty of it too.


"That one" finds a lot of meaning in unconventional use of pronouns ... what a joke.

He thinks of his submission as a gift .... I know better than him what his feeings, beliefs and actions should mean to him!

She thinks she can go beyond giving sterile advice to actively mentor someone ... cast her into the outer darkness!



One measure of how sadly prevalent this kind of thinking is that we are encouraged to give great credit when this mean-spirited myopia is only applied to "most" of the people who are a little different than us in some way.

Remember: "Hey, I ain't prejudiced; I don't hate all niggers/fags/towel-heads/etc"?

The good news, Marie, is that you're here, and lots of other people like you. Whatever the tut-tut-tutting: "that just isn't done among the twue BDSMers" finger-waggers may think that.

And you know what I think is really great about your personal story, Marie? You admit that, like myself and many others you came here with some stiltled predispositions, BUT, you didn't exercise your right to cling doggedly to them, ruling out any possibility of eventually revising your opinions to accord more closely with what the world eventually presents to you.

Instead you seem to have let time and experience serve to develop and strengthen some of your ideas while revising others, without deciding in advance which would be which.

IMHO that's really fuckin' cool.



(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 8:00:12 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		I just hope this doesn't mean I can no longer identify as a stupid cunt.

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/18/2007 9:33:13 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I just hope this doesn't mean I can no longer identify as a stupid cunt.


What a stupid cunt thing to say.

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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/20/2007 9:53:43 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		FR

What an enlightening thread - it shifted my view to be more open to the idea of training - i do think that integrity is the core of it all and will make all the difference in the world to the experience.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/20/2007 11:12:51 PM   
LadyHeart


Posts: 561
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		There was a time when I would have said: limits are just that, limits. However, with time I have discovered that for many inexperienced subs, what they think of as a "limit" can actually be more like a preference. I encourage subs to be very conservative with their limits at first. It's easier to relax them a bit later, than to try to take back permission for something already done. So I review the "limits list" with them from time to time and encourage subs to try things they originally baulked at. One way of doing this is to create an opportunity for them to see someone else enjoying that kind of play, and to talk to them about it after the scene. In that way, several subs I've played with have moved needleplay off their limits list. One turned into a human pincushion and moved it to the top of her list of preferences! However, it's not something I would do with everything on their lists, and it has to be done on a case by case basis, without pressure. Forcing them into giving up a limit is the last thing I would do.

I have very strong feelings about abusers disguised as trainers. Dont get me started!!! There is a long essay about it on my profile.

:))
LH

< Message edited by LadyHeart -- 6/20/2007 11:13:45 PM >

_____________________________

"BDSM is not an excuse for bad manners."

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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/21/2007 6:16:34 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Not to anyone in particular:

Hi. Welcome to our support group. My name is juliet and yes, I have had a trainer.

Oh yea...THIS support group isn't the one in which people's trainers have been assholes. It's the one in which we join together to recognize that there are many different routes into and through this life we lead and that some of the ways might involve a trainer without a) the trainer being an asshole and b) without the submissive being an idiot.

I had a trainer. It was early in my introduction to bdsm. I had gone the other route - you know the one - the one "everyone" says is best - the one in which you find yourself in a goldilocks relationship, where your Master is juuust right for you. He has the right amount of sadism - or not, the right amount of compassion - or not, the right amount of intelligence, affluence, influence, toys, and all the other "signifiers" you read about time and time again on these threads for you. I looked for Mr Right. What I found was amazingly - Mr Asshole (perhaps he was one of the trainers people are talking about in here and I just didn't know it.). He, under the guise of building a relationship, hurt me badly - so badly in fact that it took me two years of steering clear of ANYONE and EVERYONE while I learned some more without engaging in any sort of play. And when I say "hurt" here, I don't mean the "boo-boo, he hurt my feelings" kind of hurt, but the physical, try to figure out how you're going to walk to your car, much less take care of your family the next day kind of hurt.

So anyway, like I said, I took the next two years to learn what it was that I didn't know - all in an effort to possibly protect myself in the future. However, after two years of study and reading and talking to other people, I STILL didn't trust anyone enough to contemplate a "relationship" with them. By that time though, I was ready to experience things the right way (meaning I wouldn't have to spend another two years recovering from my next attempt at something more than reading the computer and books). So, while I was learning, I got to know people in this lifestyle and eventually was invited to some parties. There I watched people as they played and interacted with others. I learned who seemed to embody many of the things I was looking for in that illusive "relationship" and who didn't. I knew though that I just wasn't ready for the "relationship" yet. Conversely, I couldn't bring myself to play casually with every Tom, Dick and Harry that called themselves Sir and Master.

So, when one of the people I was watching who did seem to embody many of the things I was looking for in someone approached me, I opened the door a little bit. He had a slave and I was not interested in usurping her place or anything like that. I wanted to learn things that he could teach me. He took me on as a "trainee." He was my trainer. I learned.

We even had a <gasp> contract. (I know, I should rot in submissive hell for daring to put my name to something as ridiculous as a contract - smote me 20 times with wet willows, but I did.) The contract was for a bit less than a year. It had a release date. Yep... going in, I knew when I was going out.

During the duration of our contract, I ended up having some medical problems and lost a month of time due to them. He kindly extended the contract to cover that time. At the end of our contract, things, for the most part continued on as they had prior to my release. We all still went places together, did things together and enjoyed each other's company. I was able to take the time necessary to extricate myself from the emotional connection I had with him in a way that didn't make me "too" weepy.

I learned a lot from him. These were things I could not have taught myself. Amongst them were what certain toys felt like, what I liked and didn't like, what worked and didn't work for me, and mostly - and most IMPORTANTLY - how to trust again.

Now, some may call him an asshole - and they probably do, but to me, he was a lifesaver. He never once treated me badly. Of course he used his relationship with me to his advantage - that's what people do, but never once did he violate the terms or intent of our contract. Never once did he forget his slave or even be remotely inclined to ever place me above her. And never once did he use his position to "get into my pants" even though there were times I'm sure that I would have loved him to.

In short, while there were things he wanted me to do, ways in which he wanted me to act that are different from my Master's, he gave me the time, introduction and experience I needed to begin to sort out for myself what was right for me and what wasn't. And mostly, THIS is why I see the value of a trainer.

So, all you people still looking for the "relationship" out there, I wish you well. You are following your own path and I suppose, for you, that's the right one. But I will say it is no more right than someone else who followed a trainer into this life. Everything teaches something, but sitting for hours in front of a computer wishing someone would come into your life without doing something about it other than sending e-mails is not exactly constructive - even if it may be right for you. I chose what was right for me. I had the best of all worlds for me at that time. I was involved with someone with whom I didn't have all those "relationship" responsibilities and yet, I wasn't playing casually. I was learning about this life I love along the way and while my Master did have some things to adjust with me in regards to how HE does things and wants me to behave, with my Trainer, I was learning just what bdsm meant to me and how important D/s and SM was in my life.

I couldn't have done it alone and I wasn't ready for anything else.

A trainer was the right way for me.

So, you go ahead and make blanket statements about how "all" trainers are assholes just looking to get into someone's pants. I'll take it for what it is, knowing the opposite side of that view and remember that no matter what route I took, none of you, nor I know everything and so can't possibly know that all trainers are jerks to all submissives.

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 6/21/2007 6:27:46 AM >

(in reply to LadyHeart)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/21/2007 6:32:35 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Juliet,

Thanks for posting your experience.  You did exactly what many of us advocate.  Hang around, watch and learn and take your time in picking ANYONE you let into your life.  I rail against training not because ALL of it is nonsense but because MOST of it is and people who are brand new seem drawn to the assholes just like you were drawn to your first master.

I am all for training, mentoring, etc when done well.  I want to learn needle play and I will seek out both.  However, some of the people I intend to lean on I have known for years.

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RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/21/2007 6:39:18 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Juliet,

Thanks for posting your experience.  You did exactly what many of us advocate.  Hang around, watch and learn and take your time in picking ANYONE you let into your life.  I rail against training not because ALL of it is nonsense but because MOST of it is and people who are brand new seem drawn to the assholes just like you were drawn to your first master.

I am all for training, mentoring, etc when done well.  I want to learn needle play and I will seek out both.  However, some of the people I intend to lean on I have known for years.


The Asshole was not my first anything other than my first SM experience. He was advocating something more. I learned his way was not mine.

The next person in my life was my trainer.

The gentleman whose collar I wear is my first, only and hopefully, last Master.

And while I more than agree that people should take their time in finding the right person, whether that's a relationship or a training situation, the posts you've written about training and trainers do not say what you're saying now. They do not say "be cautious in choosing a relationship or trainer." They say that trainers are assholes using that training label to get into someone's pants.

Personally, I think new people are going to do what they want, and that's a good thing, but IF you are stating what you said in an attempt to "teach" new people what to watch out for, then wouldn't it be more accurate to say "find a trainer if that's the route you wish, but be cautious and patient in your search so that you will find one that's right for you"?

You know...it's kind of a "say what you mean and mean what you say" thing. And if ALL trainers are NOT assholes, I'd suggest not painting them all with such broad strokes as being assholes. Because they really aren't ALL assholes, and the submissives (who are not ALL idiots for going the training route) choosing the ones who are, bear much of the responsibility of their choices as well - just as I did in choosing who my first SM experience would be with as well as choosing to go the route of finding a trainer AND to accept the position of trainee when it was offered to me.

Sometimes, patience is one of those "FALL"  kind of things... Painful to learn, worth the pain of learning.

Fuck! Another Life Lesson!!

juliet

< Message edited by julietsierra -- 6/21/2007 7:15:41 AM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/21/2007 6:54:48 AM   
sapphirepleasure


Posts: 411
Joined: 4/27/2006
From: Land of Enchantment
Status: offline 		I, too, had a wonderful experience with a trainer who gave me three months of live-in 24/7 training.  Before I agreed to meet him in person, I interviewed him extensively, and found him to be intelligent, experienced, and one who lives his life in integrity.  Because I was brand new to the lifestyle, and planning to move across the country in three months, he agreed to have me move into his house and spend my final three months with him.  We both knew that we were not suited for each other for the long term, but he generously offered to give me an introduction to the lifestyle.  And he didn't violate any limits.  The fact that part of my training involved being used sexually does not make the training any less valuable to me, nor him any less of a trainer with integrity, in my eyes.

(in reply to julietsierra)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/21/2007 10:05:59 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD
My question to any Doms reading this is, and trainers in particular, have you ever ignored a limit, either deliberately or otherwise? Would you agree or disagree with my sentiment that he wasn't entitled to behave as if he were my Master, without regard to my limits?


Putting aside for a moment the worth of a trainer debate, I believe your original questions are important. First off, limits are there for a reason. Whether he was your Master or not, he had no business breaking a limit. The three most important things in BDSM are location, location, location. Wait, that's real estate! Actually, the three most important things are communication, communication, communication. This did not happen as well as it should have. The lesson to be learned here is that the two of you did not make your positions clear enough.

Secondly, although limits should never knowingly be broken, almost anyone who has been in this scene for awhile have broken limits, though not always by intent. In an intense scene, it is entirely possible to break a limit the sub didn't even know she had. A Master has to have the knowledge and experience to handle this, to reassure her, to explain what just happened. This happened between me and my slave on our first meeting. The fact that our relationship not only did not die right there, but actually grew in understanding and trust was in how we worked through it together. Talking about where her limit came from, and the misunderstanding between us that led to it. And of course, I apologized. Not everyone agrees with me on this next point, but I do believe the Master has the primary responsibility in the relationship. They are the one in control, they are the one that is responsible, whether the intent was there or not.

Finally, getting back to the worth of a trainer issue. There simply is no degree in BDSM to be had. Any fool can call themselves a Master (and many do!). That is not to say there are not people who have been in this lifestyle a very long time, who do deserve that title. Just that it isn't always so easy to know the difference.

D., you came out of this experience a little wiser, and are using it as a learning experience, which is just the right approach to take.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to DeviantlyD)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Trainers - Have you ever crossed the line on a limit? - 6/21/2007 11:55:54 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Ok...about crossing the line...

My Master's done this with me. I could have gotten pissed off, walked away, thrown the baby out with the bathwater and all that. What happened instead was six months of talking and working through what had happened so that a) he could see that I was serious, b) so that he understood that it really WAS a limit, not just a fear and c) so that we each could reach a point where we were comfortable with each other again.

After that, it's taken a long long long time for me to get back to almost where I was before this limit crossing happened. I say almost because nothing ever goes back to exactly the way things were. Funny thing though is that I rather like where we are now MUCH  better than where I did back before the limit crossing.

NOW, he recognizes that when I say no to something it's not just me being afraid but me knowing exactly where I stand on whatever it is we're discussing or trying. He knows me well enough now to realize that when I am scared of something but it's not a limit, I won't say "no."  I'll say "I'll try." And he knows that I will.

NOW, more than just hoping he'll do this, I KNOW that when he understands something he'll never go against it. And if by chance, he actually does do that, it won't be because he is ignoring me and what I've said. I KNOW he'll keep his word.

In the end, I could have walked away, but I didn't. He could have walked away but he didn't. I kept talking and he kept talking and we maintained our relationship until it became something even better than we had before all this happened.

In the end, I'm kind of glad it all happened, even though it was difficult at the time.

juliet

(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 60
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