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Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 12:28:41 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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I am trying to round out my knowledge about humiliation and learn about areas of which I know little. I would appreciate any insights about types of humiliation play that cause emotional discomfort, and how to engage in such play safely.

With a new partner, how do you probe for and identify areas that can be and those that should not be visited with humiliation play? If you are a sub who engages in such play, what advice could you give to a new sub who is introspecting to identify such areas?

With pain, you can gauge body language to see how far you can go or not. Intuitively, I would think the same technique can be used in humiliation play. Based on your experience, do you agree? Are there signs you observe (a change in energy, withdrawal, avoiding eye contact) or you know you display that suggest it is time to slow down?

I welcome any comments here or by email. Thank you for your time.

Cheers,

Sea

Post #: 1

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 12:47:28 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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Generally working slow and building on the past as you explore is always a good method to go.

Sometimes it can be good to just try something intense and see where it takes you. But that's only when you really are confident it's a good idea and you can take the fallout- not for a casual day when you're PMSing really bad and your cat just died.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 2

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 12:51:45 PM

Lashra

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Joined: 2/9/2006
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When my sub first stated that he wanted to try humiliation, I had him write down things he found embarrassing and taboo. I also had him write down things that could cause him mental anguish. He had written that being told he had a small cock was embarrassing but that it would not damage him. So I decided for our first session I would dress him up like a "girl" and tell him that he may as well be a girl for as small as his cock was (not).
When we had first begun to play he was his usually self but after this happened he became quiet and just wasn't himself. I asked him if he was alright and he said yes, so I went on with the play. When we were done he still wasn't himself and wasn't for a few days afterwards. He wouldn't engage in conversation so I finally told him TELL me whats wrong. He said he couldn't believe that my insulting his cock would disturb him so much. He said if any other woman had said it he would have shrugged it off, but my saying it hit him so hard it was painful.
It took months for him to get over that and now when we do humilation play I skip making cock remarks because some subs simply cannot handle it even though they may intially think that they can. It was a learning lesson for both of us. It reminded me that he is still a "newbie" to the submissive side and to tread more carefully.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 3

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 1:07:51 PM

velvetears

Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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i would wait till you and your partner know each other very well and you feel very comfortable and safe with him. If he doesn't know you - how can he know if he is entering an area that could be very upsetting and mentally/emotionally anguishing to you.

i would suggest reading up in the types of humiliation play and decide which ones feel safe and ok with you - then little by little you both can sit down and choose another to try, with the understanding that if it starts to really get to you than you can safeword out.

A physical scene will produce welts and bruises which is much easier to heal from then emotional damage - you wouldn't want it to influence the trust you are trying to build with your partner. It can be devestating or exhilorating depending on how it is handled.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 4

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 1:24:47 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Generally working slow and building on the past as you explore is always a good method to go.

This idea appeals to reason.

Incidentally, this research is for an upcoming interactive seminar and I am finding useful a prior thread with a list of links you provided. So thanks. Last night was like studying for an exam ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 5

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 1:34:23 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
When my sub first stated that he wanted to try humiliation, I had him write down things he found embarrassing and taboo. I also had him write down things that could cause him mental anguish.

Thank you for sharing your experience! That matter is exactly the type for which I would like to invite discussion. In this instance, the boundary was discovered through trial and error. With that experience in your hands, are there insights you can apply to future such occurrences where tender spots can be identified ahead of time? Are there questions you see that a dominant can ask a sub, or that a sub can ask himself if going down that same road for the first time (eg. on a scale of 1 to 10 and 10 being the highest, how secure are you about your masculinity, how important is being masculine to your sense of self, etc)?

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 6

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 1:36:25 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i would suggest reading up in the types of humiliation play and decide which ones feel safe and ok with you - then little by little you both can sit down and choose another to try, with the understanding that if it starts to really get to you than you can safeword out.

Thanks for your post and the tip!

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 7

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 3:56:05 PM

chellekitty

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Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

for me, before i discuss humiliation play, i like to give my definition of humiliation...to me humuliation is something that gives you humility or makes you feel humble...it helps me remind me of my place in an established relationship...that being said i have verbal hard limits...don't call me a bitch, or comment on my weight or intelligence...(they are all severe emotional triggers due to past abuse) but if you want to call me a cum guzzling whore who's purpose is to pleasure you so i better cum on your cock...well thats hot...
and to touch on the physical i like to use the boot example...for me a really hot remind-me-of-my-place scene can simply be the Dominant i am submitting to putting their boot on the back of my neck and pressing my head to the ground...for some this is everyday whats the big deal, for others this is degrading and beyond their limits...humiliation is very specific to the person....what is humiliating to me is not to others and to others still is degrading...there are some out there who play with degrading which by my definition is making them feel less than they are, and if thats cool with you, go for it...establish your own boundaries/limits, don't let someone else do it for you at the begining or theres a high likelyhood you can and will get hurt...and like it was said earlier, the emotional hurt takes a lot longer to heal than the physical
good luck...
chelle
House Infernus

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 8

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 3:59:00 PM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline

Communication should be the BIGGEST thing.

I am the first one to talk against humuliation play for many reasons {I won't get into it here}, but, after a while, I found out that certain 'acts' might be humuliating to one person and not to another.

Their are a few things that I have told my girl friends about and they cringe, ie leaning over the back of a chair with my ass exposed, and having my partner 'finger' or 'enjoy' my ass; I have had girl friends turn red, they tell me how embarassing and how humuliating that would be for them, or just the act of being spanked.

Even now when MJ an I talk, at times he will send me a pic of something he wants to do or for an 'idea,' I will get very quiet and He asks me whats going on, I may find the picture humuliating and we talk about it, as to 'why,' 'how,' etc. Sometimes, its just how something is presented.

Keep a VERY open line of communication with your parnter, and be honest, best advice. You don't want to hurt her emotionally, psychologically, mentaly, etc.

_____________________________

http://slaverosebeauty.livejournal.com/

"Friends live on in our hearts, regardless if they are here or not."

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 9

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 4:18:50 PM

LadyPaige

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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Definatey get to know each other well. I personally enjoy embarrassment humiliation, but not degrading humiliation.

(in reply to slaverosebeauty)

Post #: 10

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 6:09:37 PM

robertolapiedra

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Joined: 5/3/2007
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Hello undergroundsea. If it is "play", I suppose the sub would have the humiliation kink. If the sub actually enjoy's being humiliated, you use a progressive approach, same as pain play. If the sub is an exhibitionist, also you may also add little "public sceening" to spice things up.

You just go slow and find out the "effects" with good communication. As the "next" time present's itself, you can adjust the intensity and the scope of play.

If used for punishment? and the sub is not humiliation kink oriented? One must remember that what is a "little" for some may be "too much" for other's. Same goes for what is a "little" pain for a pain slut, may be "excessive" for one that is not in that kink.

In my experience, humiliation play should be done very carefully. On the whole, humiliation "accidents" are much worse than physical pain, and do not "heal" very easily. RL.

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 11

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 6:33:34 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

If you are a sub who engages in such play, what advice could you give to a new sub who is introspecting to identify such areas?

This is something I have not posted very much about. I have humiliation fantasies, some of them boarding on degrading. It takes me a long time to open up about the specifics of these things to anyone because I worry that they will be displeasing... and I am just beginning to delve into this within the context of our relationship. I do not necessarily desire everything that floats through my fantasies to be tried, and I would only enjoy humiliation if my Daddy did. I think we are getting to the place where it would be very safe to play this way... it has taken a year for me to say that. I am beginning to understand which types of humiliation he enjoys, which is the key ingredient for me.

I also know that I can trust him not to objectify or look down on me when we are finished or think less of me. Personally, I would not delve into humiliation play without feeling as though I was loved and valued by the person humiliating me. Good indicators one is not ready for it with their partner... they cannot talk openly without fear of being looked down upon by a particular partner or feeling embarassed about the topic.

If I were you I would read some erotic literature that is fantasy based and get a good idea of what sorts of humiliation trip your trigger, what sort of things turn you off or scare you, and what sort of things might be soft limits for you... and I would talk about these things with your partner. Also having safewords (or whatever way to let the top know something is wrong) might be an effective way for them to understand if you are upset... and for interrogation scenes I think they are necessary (just my view)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 12

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 7:02:44 PM

CitizenCane

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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It's a tricky area, in my experience. I think it pays to have some understanding of the basic dynamic of the kink for them. What I've noticed, when I've had enough experience with a particular person to make a meaningful observation, is that humiliation kink seems to be like homeopathy- an attempt to cure or treat a problem with minute doses of the very thing they find toxic. I've seen two major types of this- in the first, a lack of emotional connection between the participants allows the subject of humiliation to 'control' their reaction because they really don't give a shit what the humiliator thinks- even though the basic subject matter touches them deeply. In the other, a perceived strong emotional connection allows the subject to feel safe while reenacting humiliating themes. The second is certainly healthier, IMO, when it works, but is full of opportunities for the humiliation to become real through miscommunication, going too far, or just misperception on the part of the subject. In the example that Lashra gave, it would appear that the sub valued her opinion more highly than he had expected to- so there are dangers in either approach.
I've also noticed that many people think that an experience will be humiliating in an arousing way when they fantasize about it, but when it actually happens it's not uncommon for the humiliation to be real, as in Lashra's example. Even when talk in a scene- threats or advance notice of actions to be done to the sub (eg, "I'm going to make you lick my cum off the floor")- is obviously arousing, when the actual thing takes place, there can be adverse reactions. I don't know of any way to predict all these things in advance, so close observation is essential.
My personal ethic and experience lead me to want to know before hand what the source experiences are that cause a sub to identify something as humiliating, and why they might connect it to arousal. Of course, this isn't always possible, in part because they don't always know.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 13

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 7:21:47 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I think you are over analyzing humiliation... all sorts of sexual fantasies are very common and almost garden variety within the context of human sexuality... I would classify humiliation as one of these.. "talking dirty" is just one example of a very mundane and almost vanilla sort of play that is a form of humiliation. Kinda like rape fantasies are common place.. so are these.

Edited to add, rape fantasies are a form of humiliation for many too

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/15/2007 7:22:42 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CitizenCane)

Post #: 14

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 7:49:44 PM

LadyHeart

Posts: 561
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Before I play with someone, I have an in-depth conversation about safe words, stressing the fact that I consider them just as important, if not MORE important, around emotional pain as physical pain. This comes as a revelation to most subs. I give the sub the safeword "Mercy" but make it clear that I will also pay attention to "No!" Stop!" and "Safeword!" since subs sometuimes lose it when upset. Additional to this, I actively elicit their state of mind/body. I ask: "what colour are you?" from time to time during a scene. Green means great; I like it; more; I'm comfortable etc. Orange mean I'm getting uncomfortable; slow down; something's not working here. Red means I don't like it; I am close to safewording. This helps to identify areas of play that are causing problems, but nevertheless some things only do come out later, by way of feedback. At the time, it isn't always possible to analyse feelings. I always feel that until a sub has safeworded on me, I am not fully comfortable with them. I can't trust that they are not doing some macho bullshit thing. I like to push till it's out of the way, and then I know we have real honesty between us. It's not the full answer, but it's part of it, because emotional buttons can still be pushed unexpectedly, because we ourselves don't always know they are there. But it establishes a climate of mutual trust in which it can be better managed.
:))
LH

_____________________________

"BDSM is not an excuse for bad manners."

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 15

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 8:31:10 PM

surmatise

Posts: 13
Joined: 6/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

When my sub first stated that he wanted to try humiliation, I had him write down things he found embarrassing and taboo. I also had him write down things that could cause him mental anguish. He had written that being told he had a small cock was embarrassing but that it would not damage him. So I decided for our first session I would dress him up like a "girl" and tell him that he may as well be a girl for as small as his cock was (not).
When we had first begun to play he was his usually self but after this happened he became quiet and just wasn't himself. I asked him if he was alright and he said yes, so I went on with the play. When we were done he still wasn't himself and wasn't for a few days afterwards. He wouldn't engage in conversation so I finally told him TELL me whats wrong. He said he couldn't believe that my insulting his cock would disturb him so much. He said if any other woman had said it he would have shrugged it off, but my saying it hit him so hard it was painful.
It took months for him to get over that and now when we do humilation play I skip making cock remarks because some subs simply cannot handle it even though they may intially think that they can. It was a learning lesson for both of us. It reminded me that he is still a "newbie" to the submissive side and to tread more carefully.

~Lashra

This stuck out to me as its one of the biggest fantassies I have for playing sub is to be dressed like a girl and told I might as well be a girl because it is so small. I have never tried any BDSM yet so I am not sure if I would be satisfied if I found a girl to do this or If I would totally be scarred for life and forever regret it. In fact pardon if it sounds rude but thaughts of this are one of the very few things left that "Get me there" on my own if you know what I mean. Porn dont seem to do jack anymore.

anyway back on topic. Being as sexual humiliation is one of my biggest fetishes as a sub (Im actually a switch thats mostly dominant but have a sub side) I actually find it hard to find my own limits as I wouldnt get the full effect if the limits wherent pushed a little but I dont know what would be a tolerabe little for me. I know public is a totall no no and other guys present is also a no no but I dont know if I could handle one or to other girls there along with the dom as that sometimes becomes a fantassy. .

< Message edited by surmatise -- 6/15/2007 8:41:32 PM >

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 16

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 9:07:00 PM

LadyHeart

Posts: 561
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
With pain, you can gauge body language to see how far you can go or not. Intuitively, I would think the same technique can be used in humiliation play. Based on your experience, do you agree? Are there signs you observe (a change in energy, withdrawal, avoiding eye contact) or you know you display that suggest it is time to slow down?

Also, if it's giving him a hard on, obviously you're on the right track, and if he loses it again, you're not...?
:))
LH

_____________________________

"BDSM is not an excuse for bad manners."

(in reply to undergroundsea)

Post #: 17

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 9:51:04 PM

MissOchistic

Posts: 315
Joined: 4/30/2007
Status: offline

Communication and talking about what you and your partner find humiliation is key. Everyone is different. You might try your best and have them rolling their eyes, or you may try to be nice only to discover them blushing and uncomfortable.

I, for example, would hardly hesitate to jump into a fancy restaurant in a chicken suit and start an improv musical number. But then the other day Daddy linked me to this spa in PA and brought up the idea of going there, and I cringe. Yeah, that's right. 'Pampering' humiliates me. Makes me feel all squicky.

Also, do as I say, not as I do, because I'm really bad at communicating as you may find out elsewhere.

_____________________________

"The amount i care for Thee
is more than two, but less than three."

"Submission is a potlatch."

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 18

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 9:55:53 PM

aldompdx

Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline

People too often confuse humulity and humiliation. They further confuse humiliation with emotional sadism. If you want to inflict emotional pain, then be honest that you want your partner to feel like shit, and don't use the label of "humiliation." If you need to feel a sense of control by surprising or embarrasing your partner, then the real question is not the limits of what your partner can take, but the psychological mechanism of what you need fulfilled by stressing your partner.

The most positive manifestation is teaching humility, not by inflicting pain, but by showing a path of openness, strength, and maturity. Surrender and humility go hand in hand. The stronger one has self control, the greater they resonate with one of deeper humility and surrender.

(in reply to LadyHeart)

Post #: 19

RE: Identifying Humiliation Boundaries - 6/15/2007 10:03:25 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

If you need to feel a sense of control by surprising or embarrasing your partner, then the real question is not the limits of what your partner can take, but the psychological mechanism of what you need fulfilled by stressing your partner.

What if your partner likes being somewhat embarassed? I like being slightly embarassed and uncomfortable... especially when I sense that he derives a certain enjoyment in it... I sense a lot of judgment about what other people enjoy consensually.. and while everyone has an opinion, it really is just that... an opinion..

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 20

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